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Post by fixit on Dec 14, 2014 4:22:00 GMT -5
The Father speaks. The Holy Spirit speaks. Jesus speaks. God spoke through his Son - God's word was made flesh in the form of his Son.
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 14, 2014 6:42:25 GMT -5
Irvine grey, just of interest post. My brother, asked me today if I had read the book called 2x2's. I said, no, but we soon identified it as the book you have written. He has a friend whose wife hails from Ireland. She was not raised " religious" at all, but knew that a lot of her relatives were religious but they never really talked about their religion. She had seen your book , while visiting over there recently, and recognized that it was written about the religion her relatives belonged to. She had found it very interesting and enlightened her on lots of "stuff". Just thot I'd let you know. Thanks. Alvin. Edit. Need to correct that she is a Canadian, and her family and ancestors are from Ireland. I incorrectly stated she hailed from Ireland. So, what does she think about her relatives being in a "dangerous cult"? Not trying to be smart, but I'm interested to know how reading this book has influenced her perception of her relatives before she read it and since. . Hi. I do not know the answer to your questions, as I don't know her personally. I wonder if maybe the book had helped her understand more about "where they come from " , than worrying that some "outsider" considered them a cult? Likely, her personal experiences with her relatives will determine, to a large degree, whether the book is believable or "correct " for her , on the "cult" part. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 7:02:47 GMT -5
The Father speaks. The Holy Spirit speaks. Jesus speaks. God spoke through his Son - God's word was made flesh in the form of his Son. Fixit, you have been warned before about displaying intelligence. You are now on a "written warning" for this unacceptable behaviour.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 7:04:49 GMT -5
Ram, do you ever sleep?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 8:24:26 GMT -5
Only between the hours of 11pm and 7am GMT. Sometimes I have a little nap in the afternoon? Right now it is 1.20pm, not usually my sleeping time. I find that for the most part that my sleeping habits are nocturnal. I think you will find that GMT affects when I participate on this board. Also, if I have difficulty sleeping, it is not advisable for me to count sheep. It has the very opposite to the normal effect on me. I don't know why?
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Post by StAnne on Dec 14, 2014 13:03:23 GMT -5
The Father speaks. The Holy Spirit speaks. Jesus speaks. God spoke through his Son - God's word was made flesh in the form of his Son. Yes, Jesus is the eternal Word. The eternally begotten son of the Father. God, The Word, who took on human flesh. But Jesus is more than 'the voice' of God - to which your earlier post seemed to be limiting him. He is God in the flesh. Each person of the Godhead speaks. Sacred Scripture bears that out. The Father speaks. Mt 3:17; Mt 17:5; Mk 1:11; Mk 9:7; Lk 3:22; Lk 9:35; 2 Peter 1:17 The Holy Spirit speaks. Acts 8:29; Acts 19:19; Acts 11:12; Acts 13:2; Rev 14:13 ... And clearly, Jesus spoke.
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Post by fixit on Dec 14, 2014 13:12:42 GMT -5
God spoke through his Son - God's word was made flesh in the form of his Son. Yes, Jesus is the eternal Word. The eternally begotten son of the Father. God, The Word, who took on human flesh. But Jesus is more than 'the voice' of God - to which your earlier post seemed to be limiting him. He is God in the flesh. Each person of the Godhead speaks. Sacred Scripture bears that out. The Father speaks. Mt 3:17; Mt 17:5; Mk 1:11; Mk 9:7; Lk 3:22; Lk 9:35; 2 Peter 1:17 The Holy Spirit speaks. Acts 8:29; Acts 19:19; Acts 11:12; Acts 13:2; Rev 14:13 ... And clearly, Jesus spoke. The words Jesus spoke were not on his own authority.
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Post by StAnne on Dec 14, 2014 13:39:46 GMT -5
The words Jesus spoke were not on his own authority. Jesus, God, the Word, united to human flesh. True God. True Man. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
10 ... the words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself. The doctrines which I preach among you are a proof of what I assert, and to them I appeal; for these are not of myself, as man,
but the Father that dwelleth in me; and so prove that I am truly God, of the same nature with my Father; that he is in me, and I in him; since they are such as none but the only begotten, who is in the bosom of the Father, could ever have declared and made known unto you; biblehub.com/john/14-10.htm
11 ... Believest thou not that I am in the Father?.... This surely is, as it must needs be, and ought to be, an article of your faith, "that I am in the Father",
and the Father in me; phrases which are expressive of the sameness of nature in the Father and the Son; of the Son's perfect equality with the Father, since the Son is as much in the Father, as the Father is in the Son; and also of the personal distinction there is between them; ... biblehub.com/john/14-10.htm
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 14, 2014 14:15:48 GMT -5
....and it was God's Word that formed the world and all that is in it....so yes, Jesus as God's Word created the world and all that is in it! Simple, eh! God spoke the world into existence. God's word is his voice. God's Word is His only "begotten".........He spoke what He wanted and His Word accomplished that. Perhaps think about it like this...in God's mind He had a blueprint of what He wanted done that day and he spoke it and that was His Word and "His Word" did the work and God saw that "it" was good! Seems God was seeing "it" as good not a multiple of whatever had been created. Kind of like He said "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased!" Singular senses...... Yes, God's wording or God's word these days would be voiced to whomever He'd speak to...which likely would be His only begotten Son the Lord Jesus Christ as Jesus is our mediator or intercessor now that he shares God's throne in heaven!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 14, 2014 14:24:15 GMT -5
God spoke through his Son - God's word was made flesh in the form of his Son. Yes, Jesus is the eternal Word. The eternally begotten son of the Father. God, The Word, who took on human flesh. But Jesus is more than 'the voice' of God - to which your earlier post seemed to be limiting him. He is God in the flesh. Each person of the Godhead speaks. Sacred Scripture bears that out. The Father speaks. Mt 3:17; Mt 17:5; Mk 1:11; Mk 9:7; Lk 3:22; Lk 9:35; 2 Peter 1:17 The Holy Spirit speaks. Acts 8:29; Acts 19:19; Acts 11:12; Acts 13:2; Rev 14:13 ... And clearly, Jesus spoke. Limiting the power and ability of God seems to be more evident and easier to have then giving a deeper thought to someone that is a Spirit, but a powerful Spirit and even the Bible has said that "All things are possible with God." Doesn't it? This was something I had trouble getting out of my sister's head in regards to whether burying a dead person whole or cremated was concerned. She was of the old time mind that the body should be much like it was when the soul passed from it.....then I asked her what did God do with those who were burned to death and many times there was very little human flesh there to witness that someone had died in the fire or what about the ships that sank and multitudes of people drowned in the deep seas and about those who go missing one by one and are never found? Why limit the power of God? Didn't God supposedly create a man from a few grains of sand and some dew? or something of that order? Then didn't he take the rib from that said man and make him a helpmeet? Yes, I know many people do not believe the story in the beginning of the bible....but I still think if we're going to worship the God of that time then we need to grant him all the powers and more then we've ever heard of or seen, don't you?
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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2014 14:43:17 GMT -5
STR ~ I agree with your last few posts. I feel when our view of who Jesus was in the flesh doesn't line up with scripture, we are at a lost as to his true nature and this distracts from the way God's Word describes him. I enjoyed reading over some of the names associated with Jesus lately and was astounded how connected He was with His Heavenly Father even when in human form on this earth. I would like to share this article with any who question his essence while he was here on earth or doubt his divinity.
Since this is the Xmas Holiday season, I feel it's good not only to reflect on Jesus' birth but the many names or roles assigned to His presence in the world, too.
bibleresources.org/names-of-jesus/ All the Names of Jesus
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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2014 14:50:11 GMT -5
So, what does she think about her relatives being in a "dangerous cult"? Not trying to be smart, but I'm interested to know how reading this book has influenced her perception of her relatives before she read it and since. . Hi. I do not know the answer to your questions, as I don't know her personally. I wonder if maybe the book had helped her understand more about "where they come from " , than worrying that some "outsider" considered them a cult? Likely, her personal experiences with her relatives will determine, to a large degree, whether the book is believable or "correct " for her , on the "cult" part. Alvin Slowtosee ~ I have also been reading Irving Grey's book and I'm about half way through it now. I enjoy how he ties things together between other authors who have written books on the subject of the 2x2's and also gives us a good background into the history of the movement from his research and other sources. So far, I'm pretty impressed with how Irving has handled his topic from the point of view of a researcher and an observer. Sometimes I feel we can benefit much more from seeing through "another's lens" than one connected to the 2x2's? It gives us insights we might naturally miss due to our conditioning by the workers and being too closely involved with the F&W's.
In regards to Irving coming to the conclusion of it being a dangerous cult or possessing the ability to be toxic to one's spiritual or physical wellbeing, I believe there may also be evidence to this affect, too? When you consider the number of folks within the group who have problems with their nerves and suffer from depression symptoms, including many of the workers, it's definitely not a positive aspect of the faith! Also, the secrecy and cover-up of CSA crimes and other forms of immorality within the group and secrecy regarding finances, doesn't exactly portray it in a positive light either. There are a number of areas within the fellowship that could stand changing to improve its image, too. However, for those who have been victims of CSA offenses, I would definitely call it a destructive cult in that respect, due to the lasting memories of unjust trauma within their lives purported by ministers and elders within their meetings. Such perverted behavior on the part of somebody you have been encouraged to respect highly could do a number on one's health and wellbeing for some time afterwards. How anybody can still refer to it as "the perfect way" with all the stuff that has been revealed over the years regarding deception and corruption within the hierarchy of the 2x2's beats me?
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Post by StAnne on Dec 14, 2014 15:04:29 GMT -5
Limiting the power and ability of God seems to be more evident and easier to have then giving a deeper thought to someone that is a Spirit, but a powerful Spirit and even the Bible has said that "All things are possible with God." Doesn't it? This was something I had trouble getting out of my sister's head in regards to whether burying a dead person whole or cremated was concerned. She was of the old time mind that the body should be much like it was when the soul passed from it.....then I asked her what did God do with those who were burned to death and many times there was very little human flesh there to witness that someone had died in the fire or what about the ships that sank and multitudes of people drowned in the deep seas and about those who go missing one by one and are never found? Why limit the power of God? Didn't God supposedly create a man from a few grains of sand and some dew? or something of that order? Then didn't he take the rib from that said man and make him a helpmeet? Yes, I know many people do not believe the story in the beginning of the bible....but I still think if we're going to worship the God of that time then we need to grant him all the powers and more then we've ever heard of or seen, don't you? To your first point - yes - and the lack of correct teaching that some of us were raised in. And, I agree with you that all things are indeed possible with God. To your second point - it all comes down to intention. Cremation is okay as long as it isn't done with the intention to prevent resurrection with Christ. And it's much better to commit the cremains to consecrated ground. To your last point - yes, of course.
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Post by fixit on Dec 14, 2014 15:08:01 GMT -5
In regards to Irving coming to the conclusion of it being a dangerous cult or possessing the ability to be toxic to one's spiritual or physical wellbeing, I believe there may also be evidence to this affect, too. When you consider the number of folks within the group who have problems with their nerves and suffer from depression symptoms, including the workers, due to the guilt trip they put you on within the fellowship, it's definitely not a positive aspect of the faith. Also, the secrecy and cover-up of CSA crimes and other forms of immorality within the group doesn't exactly portray it in a positive light either. There are a number of areas within the fellowship that could stand changing to improve its image, IMHO. However, for those who have been victims of CSA offenses, I would definitely call it a destructive cult in that respect, due to the lasting memories of unjust trauma within their lives purported by the ministers. Such perverted behavior on the part of somebody you have been encouraged to respect highly could do a number on one's health and wellbeing for some time afterwards. JMT Is that the reasons Irvine gives for his conclusion that the movement is "a particularly dangerous cult"?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 14, 2014 15:13:34 GMT -5
STR ~ I agree with your last few posts. I feel when our view of who Jesus was in the flesh doesn't line up with scripture, we are at a lost as to his true nature and this distracts from the way God's Word describes him. I enjoyed reading over some of the names associated with Jesus lately and was astounded how connected He was with His Heavenly Father even when in human form on this earth. I would like to share this article with any who question his essence while he was here on earth or doubt his divinity.
Since this is the Xmas Holiday season, I feel it's good not only to reflect on Jesus' birth but the many names or roles assigned to His presence in the world, too.
bibleresources.org/names-of-jesus/ All the Names of Jesus Indeed! I like the name "Emmanuel" or "Immanuel" which was one of the biblical spellings...but God is with us.....The references Jesus gave to those 2 men that were walking on the highway after Jesus' had been crucified and buried and supposedly the message had gone out that Jesus had risen but His Apostles were struggling with all of that....and these 2 men were talking through some of their own questions in that regard..so Jesus went through the whole OT and talked to them exactly about what was going to happen to the Son of God when he came to the earth. And later these 2 men asked each other after they figured out that it was Jesus who was sharing their meal, "Didn't our hearts burn in us as he talked with us?" I was thinking that the old argument that used to go around the 2x2ism was that Jesus couldn't been born this time of year, etc.....so if that is true what does it hurt if we celebrate his birthday this time of year? I wouldn't mind if we'd celebrate his birthday often myself, for then people become more like what they really are. I mean some get more selfish but most others get quieter and sweeter and more helpful, etc. I went to Wally World yesterday and they were fairly busy but I've been there when it was busier, there was one lady of medium to heavy size with a cart about half full who just ran right over me and pushed me out of her way and grabbed the can of coffee that I had in my hand! I grabbed the shelf b ehind me because she nearly knocked me ccompletely down. I met her a few times in other parts of the store and she was prancing around with her chin up and her eyes at the top of everybody's head and moving on....she had no idea what was down closer to her walking area!
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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2014 15:15:56 GMT -5
StAnne ~ I might also bring up that there were a lot of the saints burned at stakes and impaled and killed in other inhumane ways, in which they were not given any proper burial, but rather left to the elements to devour the flesh. I believe STR brought up a number of these points, too? However, as to the shattering of ashes or preserving them in a vessel, I doubt it will affect their resurrected and glorified body at Jesus' return? After all, we all do return to the ground from which we came as a result of normal decay, when the breath of life leaves this body. As a result, I'm Jesus will be able to gather us together from the four winds when the times comes for His return to this earth wherever our remains may be found?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 14, 2014 15:17:39 GMT -5
Limiting the power and ability of God seems to be more evident and easier to have then giving a deeper thought to someone that is a Spirit, but a powerful Spirit and even the Bible has said that "All things are possible with God." Doesn't it? This was something I had trouble getting out of my sister's head in regards to whether burying a dead person whole or cremated was concerned. She was of the old time mind that the body should be much like it was when the soul passed from it.....then I asked her what did God do with those who were burned to death and many times there was very little human flesh there to witness that someone had died in the fire or what about the ships that sank and multitudes of people drowned in the deep seas and about those who go missing one by one and are never found? Why limit the power of God? Didn't God supposedly create a man from a few grains of sand and some dew? or something of that order? Then didn't he take the rib from that said man and make him a helpmeet? Yes, I know many people do not believe the story in the beginning of the bible....but I still think if we're going to worship the God of that time then we need to grant him all the powers and more then we've ever heard of or seen, don't you? To your first point - yes - and the lack of correct teaching that some of us were raised in. And, I agree with you that all things are indeed possible with God. To your second point - it all comes down to intention. Cremation is okay as long as it isn't done with the intention to prevent resurrection with Christ. And it's much better to commit the cremains to consecrated ground. To your last point - yes, of course. Stanne! BTWl, it's good to see you back, I've missed you much! I'd have to clarify about the one who had the "intention to prevent resurrection with Christ"....surely IF it's someone not the dead one that is doing such a thing, I'd have to say that they'd be powerless to prevent it wouldn't they? But if the dead one had it written as their last will and testament they were to be cremated to prevent the resurrection with Christ.....then that would come into the judgment by Jesus Christ of the one that is being buried however, right?
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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2014 15:20:03 GMT -5
In regards to Irving coming to the conclusion of it being a dangerous cult or possessing the ability to be toxic to one's spiritual or physical wellbeing, I believe he was referring to the theology presented by the workers. However, CSA abuse is just one area in which cults seem to demonstrate a pattern due to abuse of power. When you consider the number of folks within the group who have problems with their nerves and suffer from depression symptoms, including the workers, due to the guilt trip they put you on within the fellowship, it's definitely not a positive aspect of the faith! Also, the secrecy and cover-up of CSA crimes and other forms of immorality within the group doesn't exactly portray it in a positive light either. There are a number of areas within the fellowship that could stand changing to improve its image, IMHO. However, for those who have been victims of CSA offenses, I would definitely label it a destructive cult in that respect, due to the lasting memories of unjust trauma within their lives purported by the ministers or elders. Such perverted behavior on the part of somebody you have been encouraged to respect highly and trust could do a number on one's health and emotional wellbeing for years afterwards.
Fixit inquired...
Fixit ~ I would guess it had more to do with just the 2x2's perceived doctrine or views regarding Jesus. There's also the many accounts of abuses within the 2x2's due to CSA and control and manipulation by the workers that also helps qualify in this area, too. When you examine basic criteria of what constitute a cult in the religious world today, you have to admit that they fit a lot of the categories due to their known behaviors, including the degree of exclusivity associated with the 2x2's.
www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/marksof.htm Marks of a Cult
carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult
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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2014 15:26:29 GMT -5
Perhaps it would be advantageous to show the general criteria used to determine if a religious group could be possibly classified as a cult? Here's that's article I referenced previously in its entirety for your review and comments.
www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/marksof.htm
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Post by fixit on Dec 14, 2014 15:38:06 GMT -5
Theological definitions of the word 'cult' are strife over words and the word is mostly used by bigger groups to condemn smaller groups.
The work 'cult' has so many different meanings that its pretty useless, but here's a definition that I can relate to:
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Post by StAnne on Dec 14, 2014 16:04:46 GMT -5
Stanne! BTWl, it's good to see you back, I've missed you much! I'd have to clarify about the one who had the "intention to prevent resurrection with Christ"....surely IF it's someone not the dead one that is doing such a thing, I'd have to say that they'd be powerless to prevent it wouldn't they? But if the dead one had it written as their last will and testament they were to be cremated to prevent the resurrection with Christ.....then that would come into the judgment by Jesus Christ of the one that is being buried however, right? Good to 'see' you too!! I'm really still on posting break ... just a comment or two ... And to you and faune ... God knows our intentions, and He knows our heart. In His mercy, we have the assurance that He will judge accordingly in all.
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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2014 16:18:51 GMT -5
Fixit ~ I agree that the leadership within any cultic group have distinguishing characteristics in comparison to other churches. However, this second article seems to simply things better in outline form to make the subject much clearer.
carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult
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Post by What Hat on Dec 14, 2014 19:26:04 GMT -5
So, what does she think about her relatives being in a "dangerous cult"? Not trying to be smart, but I'm interested to know how reading this book has influenced her perception of her relatives before she read it and since. . Hi. I do not know the answer to your questions, as I don't know her personally. I wonder if maybe the book had helped her understand more about "where they come from " , than worrying that some "outsider" considered them a cult? Likely, her personal experiences with her relatives will determine, to a large degree, whether the book is believable or "correct " for her , on the "cult" part. Alvin I probably should not have biased the question with a bit of sarcasm. Certainly it's not unusual for non-religious observers to designate the group a "cult" especially if they observe weird behaviour within their extended family. And those opinions could as easily be favourable. The reason for my question is to determine the effect of counter-advocacy literature on opinions regarding the f&w, and I think you're right .. people who know friends will form their own conclusions. People who have no personal or relevant experience will form an opinion based on what they hear or read.
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Post by fixit on Dec 14, 2014 19:58:56 GMT -5
Fixit ~ I agree that the leadership within any cultic group have distinguishing characteristics in comparison to other churches. However, this second article seems to simply things better in outline form to make the subject much clearer.
carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult
Getting CARM's opinion of the F&W movement would be like asking Sunni scholars what they think of Alawites.
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 14, 2014 20:19:00 GMT -5
Thanks what hat, I agree. it is not uncommon for "negative" reviews in books or whatever, of particular groups of people , to actually make many of the authors other views also not so "trustworthy", to the reader , if the reader personally knows people of the group ,and their experience and observations are different. Of course, if their experiences are similar, it underlines or reassures the reader that " thus guy knows what he's talking about. ". I understand why some people because of their horrible treatment in the 2x2 church, consider it a cult, and why others do not. It is what it is. Good and bad, like most everything. Labeling, stereotyping, name calling is harmful and disrespectful, but sometimes the only way to educate the offenders is by actually being and living , opposite to the accusations thrown at them. That takes humility, not my forte. As a kid, I experienced some ridicule etc, since I was raised in a somewhat conservative Mennonite sect. Later on, when I professed , I remember walking in a m all with some of the friends, conservatively dressed etc. I overheard another group of people ridiculing us, as simple Mennonite etc. It was a lesson to me somehow. Father forgive them, they don't know what they're talking about. As humans, we just are like that. If you are different than me- YOU are the "different" one and I am normal. Hmmmmmmmmm. Some years ago, a person, who spoke in a unique way and had certain mannerisms, easy target for ridicule. He and his wife walked into a restaurant and were seated in a booth where the group of young boys behind them, did not know they were there. The boys happened to be having a hilarious time, mocking and imitating this "weird" person, doubling over in laughter etc. Etc. The couple left earlier, and when the boys went to pay for their meal, they were told that a certain Mr Penner had paid for all of them, the very person they had ridiculed. Hmmmmmmmmm. Their "experience" with this "weirdo " probably changed their opinion of him forever, and call him a cultist or anything else might , not ring a bell with them again. Mr Penner has since past on, along with his unique ways, but I bet those boys have good memories of him Alvin
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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2014 21:05:00 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Dec 14, 2014 21:10:50 GMT -5
Fixit ~ I agree that the leadership within any cultic group have distinguishing characteristics in comparison to other churches. However, this second article seems to simply things better in outline form to make the subject much clearer.
carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult
Getting CARM's opinion of the F&W movement would be like asking Sunni scholars what they think of Alawites. Fixit ~ May I ask if you saw any characteristics in that CARM list that reminded you of the 2x2's right away and what they believe and teach? Personally, I noticed a number of areas in that list that reminded me of the 2x2's in both the social and doctrinal aspects.
Also, I not sure I understand the analogy you present above between Sunni scholars and the Alawites? Perhaps connected in some way to this article I found where both are mentioned?
www.30-days.net/muslims/muslims-in/mid-near-east/syria-alawites/
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Post by What Hat on Dec 14, 2014 21:20:46 GMT -5
Fixit ~ I agree that the leadership within any cultic group have distinguishing characteristics in comparison to other churches. However, this second article seems to simply things better in outline form to make the subject much clearer.
carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult
Getting CARM's opinion of the F&W movement would be like asking Sunni scholars what they think of Alawites. " Here's the thing on CARM from the CARM web site - "CARM teaches Christian theology and deals with heresy like Roman Catholicism, Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, atheism, and wicca. It teaches biblical truth." I read that and no wonder so many people are down on Christianity today. The gall of one person saying they have "Biblical truth" and that makes them right and everybody else wrong. As exclusive as the friends are, for the most part they put their message out there without condemning other groups specifically. That may well have been different in years gone by, but that was our experience. Lately, I've seen quite a bit of anti-gay hate literature put out on social media by evangelicals. Just mud-slinging to tar the gay lobby by association. That might have worked 20 years ago, but people see through it now. Gays are accepted in society, end of story. So-called Christians put some very hateful, slanderous lies out there, and when people get upset about it, the same Christians claim "they" are being persecuted. www.huffingtonpost.com/alvin-mcewen/the-rights-unsuccessful-s_b_419102.htmlI find it quite disturbing that this kind of hatred is still out there in so-called Christian circles.
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