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Post by Happy Feet on Jul 1, 2013 22:29:56 GMT -5
I have posted my review of Grey's book in the book section of the board.
For those who are interested, skip over to the book section as I have started a thread to review the book. It would be good if DD could put his review on or I can post the link to his review.
As people are now beginning to complete reading the book reviews are welcome on the book thread unless the moderators have a problem with it. Look forward to reading others reviews of the book.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 3, 2013 12:52:10 GMT -5
I have posted my review of Grey's book in the book section of the board. For those who are interested and skip over the book section I have started a thread to review the book. It would be good if DD could put his review on or I can post the link to his review. As people are now beginning to complete reading the book reviews are welcome on the book thread unless the moderators have a problem with it. Look forward to reading others reviews of the book. I received the book in the mail today, looking forward to reading it. I'll head over to your review just as soon as I read it and begin to make my review/critique.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jul 4, 2013 15:08:12 GMT -5
Following the book launch demand for the book has been steady and supplies are limited. The book is available from: Faith Mission Bookshops Burning Bush Bookshop, Dungannon Real Life Bookshop, Enniskillen and Cavan Footprints, Dublin and Dun Laoghaire ICM Books www.irvinegrey.com
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 4, 2013 21:34:01 GMT -5
Mine came in the mail Irvine. Wasn't sure if I had thanked you for sending it or not,
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 4, 2013 23:00:28 GMT -5
Mine came in the mail Irvine. Wasn't sure if I had thanked you for sending it or not, I'm glad you got the book, Scott. I am looking forward to getting your opinions on it. I am taking so many notes as I read along, that it may take awhile to finish it. But, I can already see some good coming out of the book just from the first 2 pages. Mr. Grey nailed down the beliefs so that this will become the book of record for those beliefs. Since the 2x2s wouldn't write down their beliefs, someone has done it for them. I can see that being a great service to the group in the long run.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 8, 2014 12:14:51 GMT -5
It is almost 18 months since the launch of Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement. From an initial print run of 1500 I have around 300 left and that is very satisfactory. While a large number have been sold through bookshops mainly in Ireland and considerable via Amazon and my own website, www.irvinegrey.comI am surprised by the large number that have gone to the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Quite a few have been ordered by the sociology and theology faculties of major universities in various locations. Maybe it is time to think of a follow-up work using the material from the various responses I have had, both negative and positive!
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 11, 2014 9:24:28 GMT -5
One of the saddest comments I got was from a former worker who said, 'after reading your book I had difficulty sleeping when I thought of all the people I had misled over the years as to the Scriptural way of Salvation, the workers preach 'another gospel.'
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Post by christiansburg on Nov 11, 2014 14:44:03 GMT -5
I have posted my review of Grey's book in the book section of the board. For those who are interested, skip over to the book section as I have started a thread to review the book. It would be good if DD could put his review on or I can post the link to his review. As people are now beginning to complete reading the book reviews are welcome on the book thread unless the moderators have a problem with it. Look forward to reading others reviews of the book. My answer to the book was posted in November 2013. Shape of the Shapeless Movement-- Critique Thread III. It admits some of our mistakes and defends what we are.
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Post by christiansburg on Nov 11, 2014 14:50:56 GMT -5
I have posted my review of Grey's book in the book section of the board. For those who are interested, skip over to the book section as I have started a thread to review the book. It would be good if DD could put his review on or I can post the link to his review. As people are now beginning to complete reading the book reviews are welcome on the book thread unless the moderators have a problem with it. Look forward to reading others reviews of the book. How do you get to the book section?
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 20, 2014 13:47:14 GMT -5
I have posted my review of Grey's book in the book section of the board. For those who are interested, skip over to the book section as I have started a thread to review the book. It would be good if DD could put his review on or I can post the link to his review. As people are now beginning to complete reading the book reviews are welcome on the book thread unless the moderators have a problem with it. Look forward to reading others reviews of the book. How do you get to the book section? . professing.proboards.com/thread/20962/shape-shapeless-movement-irvine-grey?page=1 It is the TMB book discussion board, listed at the top of the main page under Sub Boards.
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Post by christiansburg on Nov 21, 2014 11:39:06 GMT -5
One of the saddest comments I got was from a former worker who said, 'after reading your book I had difficulty sleeping when I thought of all the people I had misled over the years as to the Scriptural way of Salvation, the workers preach 'another gospel.' Interesting comment to your meeting with workers. Here again is a review and Critique of your book. It admits some mistakes but also defends us in areas where I think we have been misunderstood or misrepresented. Date of original post: November 2013: Many readers of Mr. Grey’s book have posted their opinions on TMB after reading the book Others have done reviews and posted them on Amazon.com as well as other web sites. It may have been in August that I promised an analysis of his book. It has been three months since then and so I have provided my belated narrative in the attachment. You may not agree with some of my thoughts. Your conclusions are freely yours. I will not be judgmental of any responses. My opinions about the book and its subjects as well as references to other books about the 2x2 movement are my own and so I have disagreed with much while agreeing with a lot of the conclusions that Mr. Grey states. I have found it extremely interesting to read beyond his book as well as reading beyond what is commonly believed among the movement. I believe any one who chooses to purchase and read his book will be challenged to examine why the 2x2's believe as they do. It may be that your commitments whether for or against the 2x2's will just be more polarized than ever. I believe we all hold firm in our positions and not much is likely to change us either way. Attachments: Shape of the Shapeless Movement.rtf (187.39 KB)
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Post by christiansburg on Nov 29, 2014 8:46:23 GMT -5
One of the saddest comments I got was from a former worker who said, 'after reading your book I had difficulty sleeping when I thought of all the people I had misled over the years as to the Scriptural way of Salvation, the workers preach 'another gospel.' NOT all former workers think like the ex-worker you mention in your post. I read your book, which you sent it to me. Thanks, for doing that. From a scale 1 to 5 stars, I give it a two stars reviewed.
Christiansburg is an ex-worker did a review on your book, Irvine grey. Do you the link to your paper on TMB, Christianburg?
Nathan, I tried to bring in the link from the book review section but was not able to do this. It is a long commentary and would require it being downloaded in order to read it. In the book review section it is under Thread III. Can you do that for me. Thanks. Christiansburg.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 7:02:59 GMT -5
One of the saddest comments I got was from a former worker who said, 'after reading your book I had difficulty sleeping when I thought of all the people I had misled over the years as to the Scriptural way of Salvation, the workers preach 'another gospel.' NOT all former workers think like the ex-worker you mention in your post. I read your book, which you sent it to me. Thanks, for doing that. From a scale 1 to 5 stars, I give it a two stars reviewed.
Christiansburg is an ex-worker did a review on your book, Irvine grey. Do you the link to your paper on TMB, Christianburg?
Okay, I presume Venus is one. What is the other?
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Post by What Hat on Nov 30, 2014 7:54:41 GMT -5
One of the saddest comments I got was from a former worker who said, 'after reading your book I had difficulty sleeping when I thought of all the people I had misled over the years as to the Scriptural way of Salvation, the workers preach 'another gospel.' What's really sad is that people think squabbling over doctrine is of very much relevance at all. This ex worker must have a large ego to think he can come between God and his will for individuals.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 30, 2014 20:49:08 GMT -5
One of the saddest comments I got was from a former worker who said, 'after reading your book I had difficulty sleeping when I thought of all the people I had misled over the years as to the Scriptural way of Salvation, the workers preach 'another gospel.' What's really sad is that people think squabbling over doctrine is of very much relevance at all. This ex worker must have a large ego to think he can come between God and his will for individuals. WHat Hat, I'm surprised that you of all people would think that regardless of what one man may tell or do to others wouldn't in any way get in the way of God's will for them! The bible is rife with such stories....even the 2x2s will admit to such stories where one person can lead so many other people down the wrong path, etc....when a person starts looking to and following what another person is saying and doing too heartily and not keeping in touch with the Lord themselves then they are about as apt to be "led" away from God's Will for them as anything! I would think that IF you've read the OT, you would have seen that happen over and over again for the children of Israel...always getting led away from worhshipping the Lord God and turning their worship and time towards what other men are doing, worshipping....IS that still doing the "will of God" in you estimation?
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Post by What Hat on Dec 2, 2014 17:53:20 GMT -5
What's really sad is that people think squabbling over doctrine is of very much relevance at all. This ex worker must have a large ego to think he can come between God and his will for individuals. WHat Hat, I'm surprised that you of all people would think that regardless of what one man may tell or do to others wouldn't in any way get in the way of God's will for them! The bible is rife with such stories....even the 2x2s will admit to such stories where one person can lead so many other people down the wrong path, etc....when a person starts looking to and following what another person is saying and doing too heartily and not keeping in touch with the Lord themselves then they are about as apt to be "led" away from God's Will for them as anything! I would think that IF you've read the OT, you would have seen that happen over and over again for the children of Israel...always getting led away from worhshipping the Lord God and turning their worship and time towards what other men are doing, worshipping....IS that still doing the "will of God" in you estimation? Were they squabbling over doctrine, Sharon, or were there some more fundamental issues, like obedience, love, virtue, faithfulness, trust, and so on, at stake?
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Post by faune on Dec 2, 2014 19:53:53 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Dec 2, 2014 20:03:26 GMT -5
I just began reading Irvine's book a few days ago and I'm about one-third of the way through now. I'm finding it a very interesting read along with Happy Feet in her review of his work in the book section of TMB. I also agree with a lot of her findings relating to this book. I'm very much impressed so far with its contents and I'm enjoying learning some new things about the 2x2's I wasn't aware of before.
I might also add that Cherie Kropp has done an excellent job of documenting the history of the 2x2's in her book on line on her TTT site, which is like an updated version of the Secret Sect, written back in 1982. She has a lot of new material she has added for viewing which is also fascinating to study. Her books takes you back in time to the early beginnings of the 2x2's and helps you to see how the movement got its start and flourished.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 2, 2014 20:55:35 GMT -5
WHat Hat, I'm surprised that you of all people would think that regardless of what one man may tell or do to others wouldn't in any way get in the way of God's will for them! The bible is rife with such stories....even the 2x2s will admit to such stories where one person can lead so many other people down the wrong path, etc....when a person starts looking to and following what another person is saying and doing too heartily and not keeping in touch with the Lord themselves then they are about as apt to be "led" away from God's Will for them as anything! I would think that IF you've read the OT, you would have seen that happen over and over again for the children of Israel...always getting led away from worhshipping the Lord God and turning their worship and time towards what other men are doing, worshipping....IS that still doing the "will of God" in you estimation? Were they squabbling over doctrine, Sharon, or were there some more fundamental issues, like obedience, love, virtue, faithfulness, trust, and so on, at stake? It can always be broken down to having been just some man or men's commandments made doctrine, What Hat! Always! And when enough get in agreement with the commandments and make them doctrine then they want to make the most educated, fervent man of the group the new pusher of the new doctreine whether it leads people down a wrong path or not.....
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Post by What Hat on Dec 2, 2014 20:58:01 GMT -5
Were they squabbling over doctrine, Sharon, or were there some more fundamental issues, like obedience, love, virtue, faithfulness, trust, and so on, at stake? It can always be broken down to having been just some man or men's commandments made doctrine, What Hat! Always! And when enough get in agreement with the commandments and make them doctrine then they want to make the most educated, fervent man of the group the new pusher of the new doctreine whether it leads people down a wrong path or not..... I'd like you to give me an example of that. I think the Old Testament is what we were referencing here.
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Post by Lee on Dec 2, 2014 22:21:57 GMT -5
I liked Grey's book. It raised attention to the use of obfuscation as a means of obstructing inquiry into the sect. Grey rightly assails the workers for proffering a works-based-righteous of their own invention.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 7:20:30 GMT -5
I am reminded of "Virgs' " thoughts this morning:
"Be ye not like the learned nor the scholar, nay, even the theologian. Doth thou not know that salvation is a process requiring grace, faith and works. Receive ye the wholeness of the gospel. Carve it not up to serve the minds of men, for in so doing ye do the devil's work. The gospel is a dish to be taken whole."
And his earlier thoughts:
"Did not our Lord rebuke the devil by citing.."Man should not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of God's mouth." Why strive ye therefore to dissect his word. Art thou of the devil?"
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Post by What Hat on Dec 3, 2014 9:18:59 GMT -5
I am reminded of "Virgs' " thoughts this morning: "Be ye not like the learned nor the scholar, nay, even the theologian. Doth thou not know that salvation is a process requiring grace, faith and works. Receive ye the wholeness of the gospel. Carve it not up to serve the minds of men, for in so doing ye do the devil's work. The gospel is a dish to be taken whole."And his earlier thoughts: "Did not our Lord rebuke the devil by citing.."Man should not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of God's mouth." Why strive ye therefore to dissect his word. Art thou of the devil?" Truly, heed not the succubi of Analysis and Synthesis, which will cause you to stumble at noonday as if it was darkness.
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Post by Lee on Dec 3, 2014 22:16:15 GMT -5
A song to match your sentiment:
We live in a fallen world. Why would theologians not be fallen as well? Do your own homework. Be your own theologian. But do not be hostile to M I N D.
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Post by christiansburg on Dec 4, 2014 10:25:38 GMT -5
I liked Grey's book. It raised attention to the use of obfuscation as a means of obstructing inquiry into the sect. Grey rightly assails the workers for proffering a works-based-righteous of their own invention. The works based righteousness you refer to is a fabrication of the opposition. When people continue to say that and repeat it often then it is eventually passed on as something true. We believe in salvation by the blood of Christ as our only redeeming hope. What we also believe is that good works will follow those who profess to have salvation. "By their fruits you shall know them. Some people believe that once saved always saved. Nothing could be further from the truth. ...Paul himself said, "I have a fear that once having preached to others I myself should be a castaway (I Cor. 9:27).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 10:36:29 GMT -5
Salvation is a "continuous" process from the moment we believe in Jesus the Son of God, until our dying moment. The duration of the process may last from a few minutes up to 70 or more years. In some OT cases upwards of 900 years! Salvation involves grace from God, faith through his only beloved Son Jesus and Spirit filled Works. The sacrifice of Jesus atones for our sins because God requires a pure "living" sacrifice, i.e. following the example of Christ. Without Christ's atoning sacrifice we would fall far short of the glory of God (Jesus) because of our sins. The process of salvation requires our sins to be atoned for (by Jesus's death on the cross) AND believing in the Son of God, i.e. following him in the way, life and truth of God. Two sacrifices are required. 1) That of Jesus on the cross. 2) Our living sacrifice, i.e. dying daily as Christ did; seeking to do the will of the Father. There is no short cut.
Virgs has pointed this out so many, many times, it makes my blood boil to see how many ignore it!
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Post by What Hat on Dec 4, 2014 13:43:04 GMT -5
A song to match your sentiment: We live in a fallen world. Why would theologians not be fallen as well? Do your own homework. Be your own theologian. But do not be hostile to M I N D. Yes, that is a good point. The problem is not "mind" or "learning" or even "theology" itself. The problem occurs when knowledge becomes the goal in life rather than building character or compassion or any other of the fruits of the Spirit. Some people react to this problem by eschewing knowledge completely, which is the wrong reaction. Knowledge, or mind, if you prefer, has its place and its uses. Another aspect of this is that it takes knowledge and understanding to know how little we know. We sometimes speak of those who know so little they don't know how little they know. When someone is ultra-sure on doctrinal issues I find it off-putting. I don't mind it so much when doctrine is put across as that of this or that church, but when someone becomes personally attached to a particular belief or knowledge system ... I find that almost a little scary, because you can not reason with people like that. They don't own their "answers" and can't work with you.
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Post by snow on Dec 4, 2014 15:55:03 GMT -5
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