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Post by snow on Jun 27, 2013 10:02:29 GMT -5
Hopwood. CSA needs to be addressed within all groups where it is. If it is in your group, which it clearly is, it needs to be addressed. I can't believe you are against helping victims of Childhood Sexual Assault. So what is your real problem with the site? I am clearly missing why you seem to be so upset about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 10:47:49 GMT -5
Maybe he is upset because his name should be there!!! He that protests to much, does so for a good reason!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 11:20:38 GMT -5
Maybe he is upset because his name should be there!!! He that protests to much, does so for a good reason!!! woooooo, don't let us go there making any accusations of suspicion; it is like throwing enough mud where some might stick.
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Post by ts on Jun 27, 2013 11:28:58 GMT -5
funny that --- my baptist friends used to tell me we arent expected to live and preach as jesus did --- but it sounds good when they say its unchanging wings web site is about criticizing others and finding faults --- like this board does how would you like it if someone made a website of all the former members on this board and what they were accused of doing or not doing before they left or were told to leave? Funny that, when in the Work I was taught falsely how to live and preach like Jesus did and taught others the same. Only latter when I left the Work did I realize how Jesus lived and taught. Did Jesus teach his disciples that they MUST remain unmarried in order to be in the ministry? The Workers teach that openly. This is false doctrine, of course, and falseness comes from only one source. The result of teaching false doctrine is the lack of compassion that we are currently seeing in the leadership in the Work. As Sacerdotal pointed out, the leaders are not involved in the Wings website. It is the Wings site that has been one of the leading forces for change in the 2x2 ministry regarding CSA. Why, do you think, Barry Barkley would NOT want to be openly associated with such Godly concern for the victims of CSA? Do you think he feels that he and the rest of the Workers do not need outside help with this crisis? Why not? What is wrong with receiving help from "outsiders" when the insiders have obviously gone for decades in error on the matter of CSA?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jun 27, 2013 14:53:51 GMT -5
funny that --- my baptist friends used to tell me we arent expected to live and preach as jesus did --- but it sounds good when they say its unchanging wings web site is about criticizing others and finding faults --- like this board does how would you like it if someone made a website of all the former members on this board and what they were accused of doing or not doing before they left or were told to leave? Funny that, when in the Work I was taught falsely how to live and preach like Jesus did and taught others the same. Only latter when I left the Work did I realize how Jesus lived and taught. Did Jesus teach his disciples that they MUST remain unmarried in order to be in the ministry? The Workers teach that openly. This is false doctrine, of course, and falseness comes from only one source. The result of teaching false doctrine is the lack of compassion that we are currently seeing in the leadership in the Work. As Sacerdotal pointed out, the leaders are not involved in the Wings website. It is the Wings site that has been one of the leading forces for change in the 2x2 ministry regarding CSA. Why, do you think, Barry Barkley would NOT want to be openly associated with such Godly concern for the victims of CSA? Do you think he feels that he and the rest of the Workers do not need outside help with this crisis? Why not? What is wrong with receiving help from "outsiders" when the insiders have obviously gone for decades in error on the matter of CSA? We have discussed this issue with many workers in our home, and find a genuine concern. We must remember too that all workers can't be lumped in with the accused. I don't understand how or why you would go into the work and not understand how Jesus lived and taught.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jun 27, 2013 14:59:11 GMT -5
What is the ministry. Is the ability to minister just confined to a worker?
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 27, 2013 16:35:51 GMT -5
Funny that, when in the Work I was taught falsely how to live and preach like Jesus did and taught others the same. Only latter when I left the Work did I realize how Jesus lived and taught. Did Jesus teach his disciples that they MUST remain unmarried in order to be in the ministry? The Workers teach that openly. This is false doctrine, of course, and falseness comes from only one source. The result of teaching false doctrine is the lack of compassion that we are currently seeing in the leadership in the Work. As Sacerdotal pointed out, the leaders are not involved in the Wings website. It is the Wings site that has been one of the leading forces for change in the 2x2 ministry regarding CSA. Why, do you think, Barry Barkley would NOT want to be openly associated with such Godly concern for the victims of CSA? Do you think he feels that he and the rest of the Workers do not need outside help with this crisis? Why not? What is wrong with receiving help from "outsiders" when the insiders have obviously gone for decades in error on the matter of CSA? We have discussed this issue with many workers in our home, and find a genuine concern. We must remember too that all workers can't be lumped in with the accused. I don't understand how or why you would go into the work and not understand how Jesus lived and taught. That is great to hear, Linford! Thanks for sharing that. Do you mind sharing the names of those good workers? If not, why not? Why the secrecy over something that is positive. For example, if we were quoting something Lloyd Wilson had said at convention, or Murray Keene, or Barry Barkley- there would be no hesitancy to quote them by name.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 16:46:10 GMT -5
Sorry, I could not help throwing some mud back. He throws plenty of mud himself.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 27, 2013 16:54:20 GMT -5
clearly then jesus was on the **** side **** of adultery Jesus did not cover it up. He made sure it was put in the Bible for all to see. The story is there is it not? it was not hidden from anyone. You have certainly taken an about turn on this sexual abuse issue noels. I liked the old noels better. You have a lot of anger about this whole thing so use the anger for good not wrong.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jun 27, 2013 18:21:23 GMT -5
We have discussed this issue with many workers in our home, and find a genuine concern. We must remember too that all workers can't be lumped in with the accused. I don't understand how or why you would go into the work and not understand how Jesus lived and taught. That is great to hear, Linford! Thanks for sharing that. Do you mind sharing the names of those good workers? If not, why not? Why the secrecy over something that is positive. For example, if we were quoting something Lloyd Wilson had said at convention, or Murray Keene, or Barry Barkley- there would be no hesitancy to quote them by name. I don't see the point in who said or she said being known. If this proved credibility or validity, why not do as I do post under my real name. Even if it was Barry Barkley I would be quoting, you wouldn't know it. Name dropping is not proof.
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Post by ts on Jun 27, 2013 18:37:15 GMT -5
Funny that, when in the Work I was taught falsely how to live and preach like Jesus did and taught others the same. Only latter when I left the Work did I realize how Jesus lived and taught. Did Jesus teach his disciples that they MUST remain unmarried in order to be in the ministry? The Workers teach that openly. This is false doctrine, of course, and falseness comes from only one source. The result of teaching false doctrine is the lack of compassion that we are currently seeing in the leadership in the Work. As Sacerdotal pointed out, the leaders are not involved in the Wings website. It is the Wings site that has been one of the leading forces for change in the 2x2 ministry regarding CSA. Why, do you think, Barry Barkley would NOT want to be openly associated with such Godly concern for the victims of CSA? Do you think he feels that he and the rest of the Workers do not need outside help with this crisis? Why not? What is wrong with receiving help from "outsiders" when the insiders have obviously gone for decades in error on the matter of CSA? We have discussed this issue with many workers in our home, and find a genuine concern. We must remember too that all workers can't be lumped in with the accused. I don't understand how or why you would go into the work and not understand how Jesus lived and taught. Let me clear up your understanding in this matter. When I started going to meeting, I was 17 years old. My family background was very unstable both spiritually and in the sense of my parents' marriage. My past was abusive. However, I had certain privileges that my parents afforded. One was that I had a very good private school education most of my life. I graduated from a private boarding school. I am quite positive that there are many many people much more intelligent than myself. What I am saying is, I did learn a thing or two and was looking at religion with a critical and discerning (if not skeptical) eye when I was 17. I was pretty much on my own at that age having graduated a year early. What I lacked was spiritual stability in my life. I was actually seeking that. I had looked into Buddhism and other Christian denominations. Linford, you know that my sister was professing. She had a stable home and was very vocal and blunt with her belief that the Workers were the only right preachers and the Meetings were the only right expression of fellowship. When she first told me I took it with a grain of salt. I started going to Meeting in around June of the year I graduated and went to Gospel Meetings until the Workers went for preps in August. I professed at convention in September. Understand that I was VERY green and did not have the background in "truth" that many people do. I did not know it at the time, but my story was a real major testimony that was told around. You can imagine an "outsider" coming to meeting and professing in short order. I only knew the significance of that after being in the Work a while. The short story, Linford, is that I believed what the Workers preached. I believed my sister eventually. I accepted the "Truth" as God's truth and the way that Jesus walked and taught. I accepted it to the EXCLUSION of all else. Why? you ask. Because that is what I was taught. I believed it. I went into the Work to bring everyone I could into the true fold and family(the meetings). Even if they were in another church and even if they thought they were doing God's will, I would long for them to be in Meeting. I could not have fellowship with them and learn from them as a Worker. I even forwent marriage in order to be in the ministry even though there is no scriptural basis for this rule that was so clearly laid down by Taylor Wood at Knoxville workers convention in 1992. I accepted that false doctrine as truth as did so many others in that meeting. There were 176 workers in that meeting and none stood up to counter that rule. Many Overseers with the authority to do so, also. I went into the Work THINKING I understood what Jesus taught. However, I found out that understanding what Jesus taught was not a requirement to going into the Work. The fact of the matter is, one only had to understand what the WORKERS taught in order to be in the Work, even if what what the Workers taught contradicted Jesus' teachings. If that is not so, then why can I not go into the Work married with a family? Why are the Workers preaching against that? Jesus never taught that and there were many of the apostles married with few exceptions. For me, one of the major choices I had to make when I went into the Work is that I would not marry for the rest of my life. I made that commitment to the Work like it was a marriage. That is because that is what the Workers taught me and I believed it. I DID understand "the ministry" very clearly, Linford. I just did not realize at that time that it was a false ministry that I was committing to. I really really really thought it was the only true ministry and NOT ONE Worker I have ever met believed differently. If you know of any Workers believe what I have just said, I would like to talk to them. I dare say you cannot find one because I know what the workers believe. You do too.
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Post by ts on Jun 27, 2013 18:51:21 GMT -5
That is great to hear, Linford! Thanks for sharing that. Do you mind sharing the names of those good workers? If not, why not? Why the secrecy over something that is positive. For example, if we were quoting something Lloyd Wilson had said at convention, or Murray Keene, or Barry Barkley- there would be no hesitancy to quote them by name. I don't see the point in who said or she said being known. If this proved credibility or validity, why not do as I do post under my real name. Even if it was Barry Barkley I would be quoting, you wouldn't know it. Name dropping is not proof. Can you at least let us in on what these Workers talked about? What concerns did they have and what sorts of thoughts did they have on the matters? Were they in favour of Wings or did that come up? What sort of solutions did they offer? Did they talk about helping out the victims? Were they that concerned? Were the Workers you talked to ones who believed that the Workers were the only true preachers or did they believe as you do? All those are relevant questions. If they were not exclusive minded Workers, they would certainly have a different mindset in all ways than the run of the mill Worker. They might be less guarded around you, since you claim to be non exclusive. Also, if they were non exclusive, they would necessarily know that speaking to you in private is a lot less riskier to their jobs than speaking about their "concerns" in public. Your claims of these Workers speaking of "concerns" is very status quo. I know how it is in the Work. If you want to be a good Worker, you just pick up how the party line is speaking about the matters "with concern" and speak in the same manner. I have a feeling that if Barry Barkley were there at your house, he would speak no different than these Workers you had in your home. Talk is cheap. What real substance have you seen come out of their "concerns".
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Post by ts on Jun 27, 2013 20:09:51 GMT -5
Funny that, when in the Work I was taught falsely how to live and preach like Jesus did and taught others the same. Only latter when I left the Work did I realize how Jesus lived and taught. Did Jesus teach his disciples that they MUST remain unmarried in order to be in the ministry? The Workers teach that openly. This is false doctrine, of course, and falseness comes from only one source. The result of teaching false doctrine is the lack of compassion that we are currently seeing in the leadership in the Work. As Sacerdotal pointed out, the leaders are not involved in the Wings website. It is the Wings site that has been one of the leading forces for change in the 2x2 ministry regarding CSA. Why, do you think, Barry Barkley would NOT want to be openly associated with such Godly concern for the victims of CSA? Do you think he feels that he and the rest of the Workers do not need outside help with this crisis? Why not? What is wrong with receiving help from "outsiders" when the insiders have obviously gone for decades in error on the matter of CSA? We have discussed this issue with many workers in our home, and find a genuine concern. We must remember too that all workers can't be lumped in with the accused. I don't understand how or why you would go into the work and not understand how Jesus lived and taught. Linford, Tell me where I erred. Did I err to believe the Workers that they were the only true preachers? Did I err to teach this to others while in the Work? Did I err to forsake that belief? Did I err in telling the Workers that they are not the only true preachers? At which point, in your studied opinion, was I believing and preaching lies and at which point was I believing and preaching the truth?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 21:57:14 GMT -5
question if i may --- do YOU believe the adulterous woman was REALLY the issue for the pharisees --- or was it jesus?
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 27, 2013 23:14:10 GMT -5
You would not be suggesting that we just sweep sexual abuse under the carpet and tell the person to go and sin no more would you - hopwood? Remember the words of Jesus - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. There is a big difference between 2 consenting adults and an abuser and their victim. Workers have just sent a person somewhere else only for them to abuse other children. Adultery and sexual abuse of children - I fail to see the similarity.
Silencing survivors from speaking out - likening it to the pharsees who brought the woman in adultery to Jesus tells me nothing has changed regarding sexual abuse in the fellowship. They appear to have recanted their stance on sexual abuse in the fellowship by trying to silence the victims.
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Post by ts on Jun 27, 2013 23:42:00 GMT -5
question if i may --- do YOU believe the adulterous woman was REALLY the issue for the pharisees --- or was it jesus? To answer your question: No, I do not believe that adultery was really the issue with the pharisees. They were only interested in their own place and Jesus was threatening their place by taking away all their man made rules and regulations. So, they thought they had an iron clad case that would establish their place and make Jesus just like them. Jesus forgave the woman. I do not recall Jesus telling the pharisees that they were forgiven of their sins and to go and sin no more. That being said, I do not think that "FORGIVENESS" that the Workers are talking about is the real issue, either. I believe they have the same motive for putting the onus of forgiveness on the victims as the Pharisees had in bringing the adulterous woman to Jesus. They are doing so to protect their own place in the Work. There are Overseers who are using these very verses to protect the perpetrators(because, after all, they are human) and condemn the victims for not forgiving. It is somehow not human to not forgive a trusted spiritual leader who molested you as a little girl and ruined your life. The fact is, that level of uncaring is really inhuman. It is devilish. It is something like the pharisees were. They need to confess what they are doing and repent. Now, along the line of this "adulterous woman". I wonder what her past was like. I wonder if she, too, were a victim of CSA and her life and boundaries were destroyed and her search for love and meaning led her to be promiscuous and led her to one failed relationship after another. Just wondering. The story in scripture does not go into that depth but it certainly is a possibility based on modern stories of humans. In any case, I have a lot more hope for someone like the adulterous woman who is crying out in her soul for help than for the pharisee who is beating his fellow servants and putting himself above them. The pharisee who will stop at nothing to get power and retain power.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 28, 2013 2:51:39 GMT -5
Why would we have something about them on the WINGS site? They don't have anything to do with WINGS. Oh really? That was my point. Crickets from the 2 North American leaders. I find it interesting that you find their lack of documented involvement normal or a good thing. But your defending their lack of leadership is telling. There was an article in a newspaper that had Barry quoted in an interview, plus a hot link to WINGS in their on-line article. wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=csainthenews&action=display&thread=78You may not have read that, as it is posted on the BTS board in the 'Library'. That is the area on the BTS board where you can find information concerning convicted and alleged sex offender news. Of course you have indicated that you don't ever read there or on WINGS, so I suppose it is to be understood why you would think that I am somehow defending their lack of leadership. wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=csainthenewsWhat you probably also didn't know is that I had contacted the reporter who had initially reported the issue and provided them with Barry's contact information as the person the reporter should interview for information, as Barry's word would be the one with the most authority in that area. Interestingly enough, that was how quite a few professing people from that area first became aware of both WINGS and the BTS board. (not that you probably care about that....)
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 28, 2013 9:51:22 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, that was how quite a few professing people from that area first became aware of both WINGS and the BTS board. (not that you probably care about that....) Exactly. Some professing people became aware of the Wings site AND the BTS board (ugh, still pushing that agenda, are you?) via a NEWSPAPER article! Not via Barry Barkley sending out an email to the friends about it or a letter! That is some damning statement, Scott. A few friends found about about Wings through happenstance- and you make it sound like that is a good thing. Wouldn't it be a better thing if Barry Barkley himself had proactively sent out emails to the friends letting them know what was going on? I did read the newspaper article. I remember it well. Mr. Barkley stretched the truth a tad bit in his interview to the reporter. But, what does this have to do with HIS involvement with Wings? I asked you, has Barry Barkley being an active participant with trying and help out with Wings? What about Dale Schultz? You have failed to mention anything about Dale? Have you tried reaching out to either man asking for their help? If so, how did they respond? When was the last time that you had contact with either of them? Why are you so defensive when it comes to this question? And why did you ask me what seems like a preposterous question about "Why should they be involved?" I find that fascinating. It is not about "BASHING" them, but holding them accountable for their ROLES which is as LEADERS of ALL THE WORKERS. Your question should have been, "Why shouldn't they be involved?" Again, all I hear is . . . . crickets.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 28, 2013 10:56:32 GMT -5
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 29, 2013 13:40:55 GMT -5
Is he related to the overseer Lyle Schober ? Was the link or a story about him on Wings before? Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 30, 2013 10:25:00 GMT -5
Is he related to the overseer Lyle Schober ? Was the link or a story about him on Wings before? Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Ronald Schober is a first cousin of Lyle. His brother Richard Schober, who was a worker, was also convicted and spent time in prison. Neither are on WINGS perp list.
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