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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 23, 2013 23:06:50 GMT -5
I said it because Jesus' being a charismatic leader does not eliminate him from the "cult" definition umbrella -- just because Jesus is "deserving". Remember - I don't subscribe to the negative religious definition that only things I believe to be wrong can be cults. ALL religions, without exception, have cult practices whether the leaders are deserving or not. Sure. What you're denying by default is Christianity's claim that Jesus represented a faultless ideology. I had no idea I was saying that. What you're denying by default is that I was only speaking of leaders (plural) - nothing else. The little words count, Lee. Ponder my use of the word "or". What do I think of what you wrote: I haven't deciphered it yet. What do I think of Orwell: thought provoking writer.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 23, 2013 23:12:30 GMT -5
The aesthetic of truth is one of the transcendent Graces. Even though it's substance is empirically unproven, its polarizing quality is as indispensable to atheists as believers. aesthetic truth, transcendent grace ... be careful, you'll be making our atheists a bit jumpy if they know all that is following them around - and they can't even see it. You're assuming atheists "believe" that.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 24, 2013 0:24:41 GMT -5
Sure. What you're denying by default is Christianity's claim that Jesus represented a faultless ideology. I had no idea I was saying that. What you're denying by default is that I was only speaking of leaders (plural) - nothing else. The little words count, Lee. Ponder my use of the word "or". What do I think of what you wrote: I haven't deciphered it yet. What do I think of Orwell: thought provoking writer. Sure. What you're denying by default is Christianity's claim that Jesus represented a faultless ideology. I had no idea I was saying that. What you're denying by default is that I was only speaking of leaders (plural) - nothing else. The little words count, Lee. Ponder my use of the word "or". What do I think of what you wrote: I haven't deciphered it yet.What do I think of Orwell: thought provoking writer. Oh geeze, bob you can't decipher what lee said??
How can you call yourself a scholar if you can't understand that lee means that the default system includes superficial, automatic, atomic motes of cosmic dust in the serendipity of the full moonlight that radiates off of the nebula which lies just off the orbit of Arcturus?
OR just the reverse depending on which side of Arcturus your space ship happens to be . Then of course you have to figure the speed of your ship= the drag of the wind that travels at hurricane speed which if you aren't very, very careful just might do something to your head & make you have illusions of the the three graces rotating around a black bubbeling pot saying something like , " Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble. "
And of course that would be heresy wouldn't it? Because the graces aren't evil are they? Must be those nasty witches again! darn! .
Geeze,-bob, I thought everyone knew that!
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Post by StAnne on Sept 24, 2013 7:15:40 GMT -5
aesthetic truth, transcendent grace ... be careful, you'll be making our atheists a bit jumpy if they know all that is following them around - and they can't even see it. You're assuming atheists "believe" that. No. The opposite actually ... more along the lines of " can't see it - so can't believe it" ... Just having a little fun with words.
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Post by Lee on Sept 24, 2013 9:53:33 GMT -5
Sure. What you're denying by default is Christianity's claim that Jesus represented a faultless ideology. I had no idea I was saying that. What you're denying by default is that I was only speaking of leaders (plural) - nothing else. The little words count, Lee. Ponder my use of the word "or". Right. You're open to the idea he was ordinary. When I say faultless, I mean an ideology that won't let you down midst all of the other 'smelly little orthodoxies' competing for our minds ( to quote Orwell.) What's your opinion of him? What do I think of what you wrote: I haven't deciphered it yet. What do I think of Orwell: thought provoking writer. I didn't ask it clearly but I meant to ask you what you thought of Jesus.
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Post by Lee on Sept 24, 2013 9:55:14 GMT -5
Oh geeze, bob you can't decipher what lee said?? How can you call yourself a scholar if you can't understand that lee means that the default system includes superficial, automatic, atomic motes of cosmic dust in the serendipity of the full moonlight that radiates off of the nebula which lies just off the orbit of Arcturus? OR just the reverse depending on which side of Arcturus your space ship happen s to be . Then of course you have to figure the speed of your ship= the drag of the wind that travels at hurricane speed which if you aren't very, very careful just might do something to your head & make you have illusions of the the three graces rotating around a black bubbeling pot saying something like , " Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble. "
And of course that would be heresy wouldn't it? Because the graces aren't evil are they? Must be those nasty witches again! darn! . Geeze,-bob, I thought everyone knew that! That's funny. I have a hard time expressing myself but I'm not "out there". Life is mysterious to the best of us.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 24, 2013 10:21:33 GMT -5
Yes, of course! John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Paul wrote Ye are SAVED by the grace of God NOT of works lest anyone should boast...
that whoever believes shall not perish but have eternal lifeBaptism is believing - you are reducing 'believing' to no more than a mental act. Paul wrote Ye are SAVED by the grace of God NOT of works lest anyone should boast...Yes. One of the ways is by the grace that comes from the sacramental life instituted by Christ and commanded of us by Christ. So let's finish your passage ... 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: for it is the gift of God;
9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, in good works; which God hath prepared, that we should walk in them. Salvation is by the gift of grace. Faith and works are what justify and sanctify us. Perhaps Jesus' own words to John the Baptist is appropriate within this discussion of the necessity of baptism for salvation. Didn't Jesus say something like this when John said that he needed baptism of Jesus? Jesus said to John that he wanted baptism from John "...to fulfill all righteousness". Is this not another one of the simple mysteries of God that we can pray to get the understanding? Although, I would expect to find times when baptism was not given and the person died before that could be accomplished and that that would be an exception within the judgment of our God and Saviour?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 24, 2013 10:32:55 GMT -5
Let's not leave off the phrase that speaks to the sin part. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, Or, you can refer to the passages where God commanded images be made - The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. Numbers 21:8-9
You shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim of one piece with the mercy seat at its two ends. The cherubim shall have their wings spread upward, covering the mercy seat with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the cherubim are to be turned toward the mercy seat.” Exodus 25:18-20
For flesh-hooks also, and bowls, and censers of fine gold, and for little lions of gold, according to the measure he gave by weight, for every lion. In like manner also, for lions of silver he set aside a different weight of silver.
And for the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the Cherubims, spreading their wings, and covering the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord: that I might understand all the works of the pattern. 1 Chronicles 28:17-19 Remember the flack I got on TMB when I said the Bible was full of contradictions -- quite an uproar it was. Where the heck would Christianity be if there weren't hundreds of people who were creative enough to think of neat little explanations for all the "buts" in the Bible? I'm supposed to be the one who doesn't believe the Bible -- yet I think the people who wrote the Bible said exactly what they believed and meant. It is not me who has a problem with the obvious fact that the different writers disagreed with each other -- that's only a problem for people who can't accept the writers for what they really said. Oh well. You helped me make my point. One of the biggest "contradictions" that I've found and I'm sure there is a reaon for it, is the fact that in Genesis we read where Abraham was in the door of his tent and he looked up and saw 3 "men" under a tree not too far from him....we read on to find out one of these "3 men" turned out to be "God", for God stayed behind and let the 2 angels go on to Sodom and Gomorrah, and God talked with Abraham and seemingly did so in the "man's " body that He supposedly was in.''NOW we fast forward to Mt.'s gospel and here we read about Jesus having to go through the painful process of a vaginal birth and the many things that childhood that are normal before he become a young man that leaves his home and starts his ministry, etc. So WHY did Jesus have to do that when "GOD" was able to go around in the body of a man...why couldn't Jesus have done the same? There's things I've wondered if it were so...but still the answers seem to escape me.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 24, 2013 11:35:27 GMT -5
that whoever believes shall not perish but have eternal lifeBaptism is believing - you are reducing 'believing' to no more than a mental act. Paul wrote Ye are SAVED by the grace of God NOT of works lest anyone should boast...Yes. One of the ways is by the grace that comes from the sacramental life instituted by Christ and commanded of us by Christ. So let's finish your passage ... 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: for it is the gift of God;
9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, in good works; which God hath prepared, that we should walk in them. Salvation is by the gift of grace. Faith and works are what justify and sanctify us. Perhaps Jesus' own words to John the Baptist is appropriate within this discussion of the necessity of baptism for salvation. Didn't Jesus say something like this when John said that he needed baptism of Jesus? Jesus said to John that he wanted baptism from John "...to fulfill all righteousness". Is this not another one of the simple mysteries of God that we can pray to get the understanding? Although, I would expect to find times when baptism was not given and the person died before that could be accomplished and that that would be an exception within the judgment of our God and Saviour? Jesus said to John that he wanted baptism from John "...to fulfill all righteousness". Is this not another one of the simple mysteries of God that we can pray to get the understanding?As John observed - Jesus did not need Baptist - Jesus entered the waters of Baptism to make them holy and efficacious for us. From another forum ... ... Here, however, as in Matthew 5:6; 6:33, righteousness seems to mean the saving activity of God. To fulfill all righteousness is to submit to the plan of God for the salvation of the human race. This involves Jesus' identification with sinners; hence the propriety of his accepting John's baptism. Although, I would expect to find times when baptism was not given and the person died before that could be accomplished and that that would be an exception within the judgment of our God and Saviour?Absolutely. Man is bound to the sacrament of baptism - God is not, and He may act outside of it as He chooses.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 24, 2013 11:53:01 GMT -5
Remember the flack I got on TMB when I said the Bible was full of contradictions -- quite an uproar it was. Where the heck would Christianity be if there weren't hundreds of people who were creative enough to think of neat little explanations for all the "buts" in the Bible? I'm supposed to be the one who doesn't believe the Bible -- yet I think the people who wrote the Bible said exactly what they believed and meant. It is not me who has a problem with the obvious fact that the different writers disagreed with each other -- that's only a problem for people who can't accept the writers for what they really said. Oh well. You helped me make my point. One of the biggest "contradictions" that I've found and I'm sure there is a reaon for it, is the fact that in Genesis we read where Abraham was in the door of his tent and he looked up and saw 3 "men" under a tree not too far from him....we read on to find out one of these "3 men" turned out to be "God", for God stayed behind and let the 2 angels go on to Sodom and Gomorrah, and God talked with Abraham and seemingly did so in the "man's " body that He supposedly was in.''NOW we fast forward to Mt.'s gospel and here we read about Jesus having to go through the painful process of a vaginal birth and the many things that childhood that are normal before he become a young man that leaves his home and starts his ministry, etc. So WHY did Jesus have to do that when "GOD" was able to go around in the body of a man...why couldn't Jesus have done the same? There's things I've wondered if it were so...but still the answers seem to escape me. 1. It was a miraculous birth, not the birth you describe, (but that's another argument) - just sayin' ... 2. Jesus was God in a body when He became Incarnate - he did go around in the body of a man. The OT appearances - see Theophanythegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/04/30/the-ultimate-theophany/3. Jesus had to become truly human (while also remaining truly divine)in order to be our atonement for sin. For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. 2 Cor 5:21 This ties right back in to the righteousness we receive at Baptism ... and why Jesus said he was Baptized to fulfill all righteousness ... and why in order to receive the sanctifying grace of Baptism we must be baptized. That we might be made the justice of God in him; that is, that we might be justified and sanctified by God's sanctifying grace, and the justice we receive from him. (Witham)
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 24, 2013 16:28:28 GMT -5
I had no idea I was saying that. What you're denying by default is that I was only speaking of leaders (plural) - nothing else. The little words count, Lee. Ponder my use of the word "or". What do I think of what you wrote: I haven't deciphered it yet. What do I think of Orwell: thought provoking writer. I had no idea I was saying that. What you're denying by default is that I was only speaking of leaders (plural) - nothing else. The little words count, Lee. Ponder my use of the word "or". What do I think of what you wrote: I haven't deciphered it yet.What do I think of Orwell: thought provoking writer. Oh geeze, bob you can't decipher what lee said??
How can you call yourself a scholar if you can't understand that lee means that the default system includes superficial, automatic, atomic motes of cosmic dust in the serendipity of the full moonlight that radiates off of the nebula which lies just off the orbit of Arcturus?
OR just the reverse depending on which side of Arcturus your space ship happens to be . Then of course you have to figure the speed of your ship= the drag of the wind that travels at hurricane speed which if you aren't very, very careful just might do something to your head & make you have illusions of the the three graces rotating around a black bubbeling pot saying something like , " Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble. "
And of course that would be heresy wouldn't it? Because the graces aren't evil are they? Must be those nasty witches again! darn! .
Geeze,-bob, I thought everyone knew that!
I just figured it out. I'm DEfaulty.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 24, 2013 16:30:15 GMT -5
You're assuming atheists "believe" that. No. The opposite actually ... more along the lines of " can't see it - so can't believe it" ... Just having a little fun with words. I can now blame it on my defaultiness!
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 24, 2013 16:35:23 GMT -5
I had no idea I was saying that. What you're denying by default is that I was only speaking of leaders (plural) - nothing else. The little words count, Lee. Ponder my use of the word "or". Right. You're open to the idea he was ordinary. Of course. But I have the option of "closing" with discretion. I think he said many things.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 24, 2013 16:36:48 GMT -5
Oh geeze, bob you can't decipher what lee said?? How can you call yourself a scholar if you can't understand that lee means that the default system includes superficial, automatic, atomic motes of cosmic dust in the serendipity of the full moonlight that radiates off of the nebula which lies just off the orbit of Arcturus? OR just the reverse depending on which side of Arcturus your space ship happen s to be . Then of course you have to figure the speed of your ship= the drag of the wind that travels at hurricane speed which if you aren't very, very careful just might do something to your head & make you have illusions of the the three graces rotating around a black bubbeling pot saying something like , " Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble. "
And of course that would be heresy wouldn't it? Because the graces aren't evil are they? Must be those nasty witches again! darn! . Geeze,-bob, I thought everyone knew that! That's funny. I have a hard time expressing myself but I'm not "out there". Life is mysterious to the best of us. That depends what you're best at, doesn't it?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 24, 2013 16:41:58 GMT -5
Remember the flack I got on TMB when I said the Bible was full of contradictions -- quite an uproar it was. Where the heck would Christianity be if there weren't hundreds of people who were creative enough to think of neat little explanations for all the "buts" in the Bible? I'm supposed to be the one who doesn't believe the Bible -- yet I think the people who wrote the Bible said exactly what they believed and meant. It is not me who has a problem with the obvious fact that the different writers disagreed with each other -- that's only a problem for people who can't accept the writers for what they really said. Oh well. You helped me make my point. One of the biggest "contradictions" that I've found and I'm sure there is a reaon for it, is the fact that in Genesis we read where Abraham was in the door of his tent and he looked up and saw 3 "men" under a tree not too far from him....we read on to find out one of these "3 men" turned out to be "God", for God stayed behind and let the 2 angels go on to Sodom and Gomorrah, and God talked with Abraham and seemingly did so in the "man's " body that He supposedly was in.''NOW we fast forward to Mt.'s gospel and here we read about Jesus having to go through the painful process of a vaginal birth and the many things that childhood that are normal before he become a young man that leaves his home and starts his ministry, etc. So WHY did Jesus have to do that when "GOD" was able to go around in the body of a man...why couldn't Jesus have done the same? There's things I've wondered if it were so...but still the answers seem to escape me. I'm sure SOMEONE has come up with an explanation for that. My suspicion is that someone wrote something that Christian doctrine doesn't want us to know.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 24, 2013 16:55:25 GMT -5
1. There was no vaginal birth (but that's another argument) - just sayin' ... Do tell. I have never heard this before. C-section? This is sounding more like the god Zeus. His daughter Athena was conceived, but NOT from intercourse with Metis, and she (Athena) sprang fully armed with the mind of Zeus from the head of Zeus.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 24, 2013 20:35:00 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 24, 2013 20:58:35 GMT -5
Oh geeze, bob you can't decipher what lee said??
How can you call yourself a scholar if you can't understand that lee means that the default system includes superficial, automatic, atomic motes of cosmic dust in the serendipity of the full moonlight that radiates off of the nebula which lies just off the orbit of Arcturus?
OR just the reverse depending on which side of Arcturus your space ship happens to be . Then of course you have to figure the speed of your ship= the drag of the wind that travels at hurricane speed which if you aren't very, very careful just might do something to your head & make you have illusions of the the three graces rotating around a black bubbeling pot saying something like , " Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble. "
And of course that would be heresy wouldn't it? Because the graces aren't evil are they? Must be those nasty witches again! darn! .
Geeze,-bob, I thought everyone knew that! That's funny. I have a hard time expressing myself but I'm not "out there". Life is mysterious to the best of us. "That's funny. I have a hard time expressing myself but I'm not "out there". Life is mysterious to the best of us."
Lee, The above is your post..
can you get your post in it's proper place so it doesn't appear to have ME saying your post? Thanks.
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Post by Lee on Sept 24, 2013 21:03:17 GMT -5
Of course
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2013 21:33:19 GMT -5
Discussion of Catholic doctrine is futile, because the church can teach whatever it pleases. If your Queen of Heaven was human, she gave birth as a human being gives birth.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 24, 2013 21:45:34 GMT -5
Discussion of Catholic doctrine is futile, because the church can teach whatever it pleases. If your Queen of Heaven was human, she gave birth as a human being gives birth. Do you believe that 'Mary conceived Jesus in her womb “by the power of the Holy Spirit”'? The Resurrection was miraculous (Jesus raised himself from the tomb). So why are you unable to believe that the birth was also miraculous?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 24, 2013 23:13:28 GMT -5
But Stanne, it doesn't seem equitable that Jesus being born any other way then the way humans are born that he could be expected to be 100 per cent human without going through the birthing process....this poofing a divine soul/spirit out of a human body without going through the human process IN ORDER that Jesus be 100 per cent human and 100 per cent God can be a possibility...strange that thought!
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 25, 2013 1:02:15 GMT -5
I am speechless. Just when I thought I had heard it all ....
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 25, 2013 1:04:37 GMT -5
Discussion of Catholic doctrine is futile, because the church can teach whatever it pleases. If your Queen of Heaven was human, she gave birth as a human being gives birth. No she didn't. Jesus was teletransported.
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Post by Greg on Sept 25, 2013 1:14:31 GMT -5
Discussion of Catholic doctrine is futile, because the church can teach whatever it pleases. If your Queen of Heaven was human, she gave birth as a human being gives birth. No she didn't. Jesus was teletransported. Beam me out, Scotty!
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 25, 2013 1:16:11 GMT -5
No she didn't. Jesus was teletransported. Beam me out, Scotty! We're lucky Mary didn't swallow a fly.
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Post by snow on Sept 25, 2013 10:44:09 GMT -5
What bothers me is the message that sends about human women and the process of making and having a baby. The miracle of birth is 'too dirty' for a God. What message does that send? That women and their 'functions' are somehow inferior. Once again, the role of women has been negated. Everywhere you turn in religion the woman is less than. I have never liked the message that sends about women.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 25, 2013 12:25:23 GMT -5
But Stanne, it doesn't seem equitable that Jesus being born any other way then the way humans are born that he could be expected to be 100 per cent human without going through the birthing process....this poofing a divine soul/spirit out of a human body without going through the human process IN ORDER that Jesus be 100 per cent human and 100 per cent God can be a possibility...strange that thought! - Is it any greater miracle than Conception by the power of the Holy Spirit with a human mother only?
- Is is any greater miracle than the Incarnation - Jesus' divine nature joined ever after to human nature?
- Is it any greater miracle than Jesus' body returning to life and raising himself Glorified, out of the tomb?
We believe these revelations of God through faith - to which God's grants us a measure of understanding and acceptance of His holy mysteries. (Just as He granted you the understanding of the Holy Trinity - Thanks be to God!)
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