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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2014 4:30:55 GMT -5
One thing that is quite amazing is the enormous interest shown for the Vietnam situation on this board -- I have never seen a thread with close to 40 thousand reads before ..There have been some very wonderful posts by alot of concerned people, both with Vietnam connections and those with just a compassionate interest in people and developments there. I have collected a number of emails on the subject, and saved a large number of thoughts and feelings expressed in posts on this board on the 2x2vietnam site. All the posts that I have saved, I have permission from the authors. There are a number of other very well written posts I would like to include in the collection but haven't felt I could. For credibility reasons, I have only documented posts that are identifiable to a real life person .. Wonder if there are any other of the posters here that would consider lending their name (and possibly picture?)to the cause, along with their posts. (or to avoid TMB identity if that is an issue, possibly just along with an email expressing thoughts and concerns) I have noticed that the hit statistics of www.2x2vietnam.info have also been on the rise as interest gains momentum, and I presume that some of these hits are from people who have influence on the situation, or are directly involved. Just a thought!!
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Post by minhthanh on Feb 5, 2014 5:05:27 GMT -5
I wonder if the solution to the Vietnam mess might be quite simple: 1. Ask Mike Thorsteinson if he would return to Vietnam to work with Uncle Chau and Uncle Hoa. 2. Foreign workers either work under the oversight of those three brothers or stay out of Vietnam. I had said "I'll never return to their fellowship ..." But with this solution I will change my decision, because of I know Mike is a true servant. He never says his work is ecxactly like Jesus as Canadian workers said. But Mike is really exactly like Jesus in his action or speaking. Never heard any hard words out of his mouth. He is raising THE FLAG OF JESUS, by his love to our souls.
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Post by minhthanh on Feb 5, 2014 9:20:30 GMT -5
At first they came and everyone was welcome them because they came as helpers to local workers. Gradually, the foreign workers had more influence owing to they had a lot of money and spent a lot of money for rent apartments, restaurants, transportation...They exclusively decided to call and approve new workers (I used the words "recruit the workers"). At last we surprised that the native workers are in charge of the church only on paper (in front of the authorities), the real power is on the hands of foreign workers. The transition is transparent. Is Uncle Hoa in charge of the Golden Friends (on paper, with the authorities)? Or is Uncle Chau in charge of both the Golden friends and the 2x2 Friends (on paper), taking care of both from Cambodia? It seems that the authorities should be told the truth. Don't have any change... Uncle Châu still in charge the Vietnamese church on paper for both side. Because the authorities don't know the division inside the church, and they never know that the Canadian overseer is in charge in reality. Uncle Hoa didn't made any changing, he just continue sacrificing his life for the needy souls. But under the Lyle's rule. Uncle Châu couldn't visit or connect with the golden friends. He had to obey the rule.
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Feb 5, 2014 11:35:47 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Feb 5, 2014 11:35:47 GMT -5
I'm a little confused here...
I had understood that in 1967, Fred Allen registered the church with the Vietnamese Government as Christian Mission in Vietnam ("Sứ Mạng các Thánh Đồ") and stated he was the responsible leader. The four Friends on the managing committee are: Miss Lan, Đào Hữu Phỉ (passed away), Nguyen Huu Bau, and Nguyen Thanh Hoa.
And that right after Liberation Day, Uncle Hoa made a declaration to the Government that Uncles Hoa and Châu were continuing the Mission in VN. Uncle Châu and Uncle Hoa were and still are the registered leaders with the VN government.
Is this incorrect?
So who exactly is in charge: Chau, Hoa, Chau & Hoa?
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 5, 2014 13:25:35 GMT -5
Is Uncle Hoa in charge of the Golden Friends (on paper, with the authorities)? Or is Uncle Chau in charge of both the Golden friends and the 2x2 Friends (on paper), taking care of both from Cambodia? It seems that the authorities should be told the truth. Don't have any change... Uncle Châu still in charge the Vietnamese church on paper for both side. Because the authorities don't know the division inside the church, and they never know that the Canadian overseer is in charge in reality. Uncle Hoa didn't made any changing, he just continue sacrificing his life for the needy souls. But under the Lyle's rule. Uncle Châu couldn't visit or connect with the golden friends. He had to obey the rule. Based on this, if Uncle Châu were to withdraw his support of the foreign interfering workers, then in effect the truth fellowship would once again be simply known (legally) as the Christian Mission in Vietnam ("Sứ Mạng các Thánh Đồ"), and could be reunited. Problem solved. All the friends could be reunited, continue in fellowship as they have always done, appoint workers who felt called into that work, and enjoy the freedom in Christ that they always have. What a great idea! Following Christ, not concerned with man made rules, and continuing to share the gospel with others. Hasn't Uncle Châu actually been moved out of Vietnam a few times? How does this work with the government, if he is the one who is registered as the 'head' of the church there? And if he is listed as such, then why do those foreign interfering guys think that they can run the show?
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Feb 5, 2014 14:26:41 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Feb 5, 2014 14:26:41 GMT -5
Post Falls, Idaho USA June 18,1993
Dear Soldiers and Families,
Recently someone gave me a copy of the 1965-72 Army reunion book. My heart has been deeply touched as I read what you have written there, and I felt moved to write to some of you, especially those of you who were in Vietnam. Some of you would know that it was my privilege to labor there with Phyllis Munn from 60-65 and 71-75.
We very deeply appreciate your sacrifice and we wish you could know how much it means to your brethren in VN. They know they owe so much to all of you...and to all the US help. Gratitude is deeply felt, but hard to put into words.
When we arrived in Jan. '60, the war was lost. Many, including military and government officials, came to see us to just beg us that America would come to help them, saying that if America didn't help them noone world, they had noone else to look to. We would explain to them that our work had nothing to do with the govt., that we hoped America would help them, but we had nothing to say about it. They knew they couldn't win and they were so discouraged. When the US sent advisers, in about '62, it greatly improved their morale, and helped for awhile.
The first VN to get a revelation of God's way were Chau and Hoa, the two men who are in the work now. They made their choice in the same mtg. Others did, too, but never continued. Others made their choice later that year, and by '65 we had several open homes. If it had not been for America sending advisors, we likely wouldn't have been able to stay until these homes got open and meetings established.
We came for our home visit in '65 and that is the year some of you went there. The other sisters left shortly after we did, and it was not considered safe for sisters to be there, so we didn't return until '71. We are grateful that the brothers were able to remain all those years. During the 10 years that US Service men were there, some went into the work and got established in the work...both brothers and sisters. This could never have happened if the US hadn't been there. They, and we feel deeply grateful.
In the years since '75 Chau and Hoa have been able to remain active, though very quietly, and some have decided every year. They recently had a yearly gathering with about 100 present...after the gathering they went to visit the ones who couldn't make it. Two sisters continue to keep their lives free for the work, they are limited in what they can do, but they do what they can. The work has prospered since '75, we know that your efforts there, and your prayers for that little land have added much to the work there. It is wonderful that our prayers can go where we can't go.
You would have wondered, as we did, why it fell in '75. I couldn't understand and as we left, only had peace in knowing that above all, God is working out a purpose that we can't see. We can trust and I didn't want to fight against God, but to accept it. A few years ago, Chau went to the North for the first time. He is a northerner, and could return to visit relatives and old friends. Since then, he has gone every year, some other northerners always go with him. Hoa is a southerner, so he couldn't go. Now, we have some brothers and sisters in different parts of the north. This could never have happened if the line was still there as it is in Korea, and would have been if it hadn't fallen.
We are so grateful that some of you were able to meet your VN brethren there and have a little different feeling for the situation as a result. We wish you all could. We think of God looking down from Heaven to see if any are beginning to understand and seek Him. (Ps. 53:2) In 1960 He would see a whole nation on the road to hell, among them He saw some whose hearts were turned toward Him, longing for light and peace. God never overlooks a seeking soul...and no price is too great for their salvation. This life for all of us is very short and for all of us it ends in death. Life looks so different when viewed from the standpoint of eternity. Those who die in their youth, not knowing God, have less to regret than if they had lived to be old.
It is very sobering to see the pictures of those five faithful young men who were lost in VN and to see the next page of eight men and one wife who lost their lives since, mostly in accidents...and we know that there were always more killed on the highways at home than in the VN war. When we die and how we die is not so important as what we do with the time we have here. May we all so live that the memory of our lives will inspire others to press on and live for things that outlast this life.
It is my hope that these few lines may help you to understand better how much your time in VN has helped the work of God there and how much it will mean for many for eternity, and to help any of you who may have had a hard time coping with memories of days there. There are many things in life that we can't fully understand and Satan would like to keep us meditating on these things until it robs us of our joy and our usefulness in the present. I love Duet. 2:3 "Ye have compassed this mountain long enough, turn you northward" Sometimes I have found myself fretting over things of the past so much that I was missing the guiding of God for the present and it was necessary just to let the past sink into the past, in order to get on with what the Lord wanted to lead me into today. I long to know better how to just humbly let the lord lead today and to trust that He will guide us into blessing as we humbly follow.
It was my privilege to labor in Sarawak, Malaysia, on the Island of Borneo from '76 to '88. They have a time limit there, so I couldn't stay any longer. I'm enjoying my time on the Washington staff now and am content here. If VN ever opens up again, I would count it a priv. to return, however, I doubt it will open up in the near future.
We have just finished conv. at Bonners Ferry, Idaho. It will be my priv. to attend Boyden, Iowa conv. this fall. If any of you happen to be there, I would love to meet you.
Now, I must let this he all for today, this doesn't require an answer but if you do write, I'll be pleased to hear.
Your sister in Christ,
Bonnie Dahlin
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Vietnam
Feb 5, 2014 14:49:01 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2014 14:49:01 GMT -5
Western overseers should be required to spend a year with Hoa or Chau so that the Westerners can learn how to be real workers, then they could teach others in the West.
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Feb 5, 2014 15:05:00 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Feb 5, 2014 15:05:00 GMT -5
Earlier MT wrote: We know that many western Workers are willing to come to VN to visit like Uncle Hoa does, but due to government restrictions, it’s really hard for them and our Friends also. That is why we need Uncle Châu back in VN, because it is appropriate for a native to go anywhere as before (not stay in a place and under strange rules).
Today MT gave an example of how hard it is: In other place seeing the Canadian visit to a very poor lady with 2 children, immediately the authority in that region cut off the welfare for the poor to that family. Making their life became more difficult.
Earlier MT wrote: Another change: the Workers began asking for meals. These arrangements are something new organized by the Canadian Overseers. In the past Workers never asked for a meal. They just came to have the meal if the Friends wanted to invite them. Asking and appointing a date for Friends to serve them a meal isn’t convenient for some Friends because they are poor, some are too old to cook, and some don't know how to cook a special meal for the Workers. Some friends in the countryside are so poor they even have to borrow money for the meal. Some Sister Friends have told me how much they worry every time they received the arrangement asking for Workers' meal. I mentioned these things with Uncle Lyle one time.
Today MT wrote an example of how the foreign workers arrangement are a hardship on some VN Friends: In VN uncle Hoa continues the same spirit as before. Not only bring the Good News form Heaven to friends in the very far region, but also bring some food, for don't made friends become heavy for the meal. Such as friends in Binh Long they work all day long for scrape the rubber latex, just earn less than 5 USD a day. Any times the Canadian workers visit, they had to borrow money for serving meal.
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Feb 5, 2014 15:06:23 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Feb 5, 2014 15:06:23 GMT -5
Western overseers should be required to spend a year with Hoa or Chau so that the Westerners can learn how to be real workers, then they could teach others in the West. I agree. A good understanding about VN would have prevented many misunderstandings.
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Feb 5, 2014 15:17:00 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 5, 2014 15:17:00 GMT -5
In my opinion, the Canadian staff of workers, Lyle and Dale S. should give BACK uncle Chau and Hoa leadership/oversight of the work in Vietnam. ALL foreigners workers should be under theirs supervision and the work in Vietnam. In 1990s when ALL foreigners came to Vietnam as helpers! and it should have STAYED it that way, then we wouldn't have the MESS as they do now. Both Chau and Hoa have allowed the Canadian workers taken over (maybe without their approval) their leadership and they/Canadians workers, have made a Big blunder and a terrible Mess with westerners rules, how things should be operated in VN. If uncle Hoa doesn't want to come back as a 2x2 worker, then they should let Uncle Chau be in charge and ALL foreigners workers should be under his supervision and they should ONLY be his helpers! NOT rulers..... I believe things will get straighten out in no time. I know uncle Chau and most of the golden friends, like things to return as in the golden days when workers/saints work side by side in sharing the gospel, helping one another, before the foreigners workers came to Vietnam. Nathan, Hoa has never left his calling of being a worker for Christ. From what I can see and read in the posts by the true friends there in Vietnam, Hoa is continuing to share the gospel and minister to the friends. Perhaps you meant Chau was the one who left the work in Vietnam, as it appears he has been moved once again out of that country. From what I have read, those foreigners kicked Chau out of the church (that he is legally the head of), and then once they reinstated him, they then moved him out of the country to places he didn't even know the language. And if Chau has been moved from Vietnam (again) does that in effect place Hoa as the 'legal' spiritual head of the fellowship in Vietnam?
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Vietnam
Feb 5, 2014 15:24:47 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2014 15:24:47 GMT -5
Western overseers should be required to spend a year with Hoa or Chau so that the Westerners can learn how to be real workers, then they could teach others in the West. I agree. A good understanding about VN would have prevented many misunderstandings. That's not quite what I was trying to convey. Hoa and Chau seem to know what it is to be good caring pastors and how to find the seeking. They could train the Westerners on how to do it and it might revive the Western church from its incessant decline. Hoa and Chau both seem to know how to help the needs of their friends as well as find people seeking a good faith and this is something that could be learned by the Westerners.
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Feb 5, 2014 16:03:45 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 5, 2014 16:03:45 GMT -5
Nathan, Hoa has never left his calling of being a worker for Christ. From what I can see and read in the posts by the true friends there in Vietnam, Hoa is continuing to share the gospel and minister to the friends. Perhaps you meant Chau was the one who left the work in Vietnam, as it appears he has been moved once again out of that country. From what I have read, those foreigners kicked Chau out of the church (that he is legally the head of), and then once they reinstated him, they then moved him out of the country to places he didn't even know the language. And if Chau has been moved from Vietnam (again) does that in effect place Hoa as the 'legal' spiritual head of the fellowship in Vietnam? If I were uncle Hoa and 100 the golden friends who left the 2x2 fellowship... I would do this! STAY where they are and doing what they are doing but LETTING Lyle S and the current friends, and workers KNOW.... When they see a big change in the current leadership they will RETURN to the 2x2 fellowship... or have change of hearts like MinhThanh has expressed in one of her posts, the possibility of returning! Then I believe Hoa and the 100 golden friends HAVE 100% support from the friends and workers around the world, with their cause or what they are doing right now. I will stand up, join them and fight for their cause against the Canadian workers, unwise behaviors and foolish decision! with all my strength.Again, I don't really think that they have 'left' the fellowship. They are continuing to BE the fellowship, and continuing the meetings. In my opinion, it is the foreigners who have in effect 'left' the fellowship. What they have done is certainly not in keeping with what it means to be spiritual leaders within the church. I think those foreigners should go back and read their bibles, and understand what their role in the church is. The record we have in the bible was how Paul traveled to different areas, helped establish churches, and then left them to their fellowship with each other. He would then write to them encouraging them in their faith, and always wishing to be able to visit them. He advised them, but he certainly didn't rule them. Of course MT would like to be reunited with the rest of the church in Vietnam. I am sure it is very painful to know that half of the church there has turned away from the friends and continue to follow the demands of foreigners. Those who do so would be welcomed back in fellowship with MT and the golden friends with open arms and hearts I am sure. I think you simply have it backward in your thinking. I also am sure that this is a horrible time for Chau, who must really want to be in fellowship with the rest of the friends there. I worry about him, and how the foreigners have booted him from the work, reinstated him, sent him away from his loved ones that he has labored for and with.....and all these unGodly foreigners somehow think that is going to somehow benefit the fellowship and unity of the church. It is obvious by the outpouring of support from those within the fellowship around the world, that these practices by foreigners are unsupported. Once again, these overseers involved are destroying the church from within, and losing more trust and respect from the membership. I DO know that you will stand up and fight for them in their just cause, Nathan. Just be sure you know what it is you are fighting for. I THINK you are concerned about unity within the church for those people in Vietnam, as it is evident that the unity is not a concern by those foreign workers who are interfering in our Lords' work
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2014 16:44:06 GMT -5
That's not quite what I was trying to convey. Hoa and Chau seem to know what it is to be good caring pastors and how to find the seeking. They could train the Westerners on how to do it and it might revive the Western church from its incessant decline. Hoa and Chau both seem to know how to help the needs of their friends as well as find people seeking a good faith and this is something that could be learned by the Westerners. To me this is not a problem with cultural difference -- it is a very basic doctrinal difference between 2x2ism of the Canadian/North American leadership and the 'golden' folks in Vietnam. They aren't on the same spiritual wave length at all -- The official 2x2ism is based on power, demanded obedience and the worship of men -- Where as the golden folks in Vietnam have based their service and worship on the simple spirit of Christ. This is only one in a long row of examples of 2x2ism showing its real face, and its basic contempt for the simplicity of Christ. Returning to 2x2ism isn't going to do anything good for anyone -- and it definately isn't going to reinstate the 'golden days' To me, the events we are witnessing are just the leadings of God into something far better for these folks .. as it has been for us. Like Scott has pointed out several times -- What we see in Hoas work -- and in the faithful friends around him IS the will and work of God -- It is beautifull --don't let anything destroy it. What we see in the 2x2 leadership IS a counterfeit and a deception -- and has been proven to be so, so many times before. Don't fullfill the message of 2 Peter 2:22 when God in his mercy has shown the amazing beauty of truth and privlage of service in simplicity. Edgar 2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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Vietnam
Feb 5, 2014 18:44:16 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2014 18:44:16 GMT -5
That's not quite what I was trying to convey. Hoa and Chau seem to know what it is to be good caring pastors and how to find the seeking. They could train the Westerners on how to do it and it might revive the Western church from its incessant decline. Hoa and Chau both seem to know how to help the needs of their friends as well as find people seeking a good faith and this is something that could be learned by the Westerners. To me this is not a problem with cultural difference -- it is a very basic doctrinal difference between 2x2ism of the Canadian/North American leadership and the 'golden' folks in Vietnam. They aren't on the same spiritual wave length at all -- The official 2x2ism is based on power, demanded obedience and the worship of men -- Where as the golden folks in Vietnam have based their service and worship on the simple spirit of Christ. This is only one in a long row of examples of 2x2ism showing its real face, and its basic contempt for the simplicity of Christ. Returning to 2x2ism isn't going to do anything good for anyone -- and it definately isn't going to reinstate the 'golden days' To me, the events we are witnessing are just the leadings of God into something far better for these folks .. as it has been for us. Like Scott has pointed out several times -- What we see in Hoas work -- and in the faithful friends around him IS the will and work of God -- It is beautifull --don't let anything destroy it. What we see in the 2x2 leadership IS a counterfeit and a deception -- and has been proven to be so, so many times before. Don't fullfill the message of 2 Peter 2:22 when God in his mercy has shown the amazing beauty of truth and privlage of service in simplicity. Edgar 2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. I wasn't referring to cultural differences. Point taken though.
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Feb 5, 2014 20:03:52 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 5, 2014 20:03:52 GMT -5
Earlier MT wrote: We know that many western Workers are willing to come to VN to visit like Uncle Hoa does, but due to government restrictions, it’s really hard for them and our Friends also. That is why we need Uncle Châu back in VN, because it is appropriate for a native to go anywhere as before (not stay in a place and under strange rules). Today MT gave an example of how hard it is: In other place seeing the Canadian visit to a very poor lady with 2 children, immediately the authority in that region cut off the welfare for the poor to that family. Making their life became more difficult. Earlier MT wrote: Another change: the Workers began asking for meals. These arrangements are something new organized by the Canadian Overseers. In the past Workers never asked for a meal. They just came to have the meal if the Friends wanted to invite them. Asking and appointing a date for Friends to serve them a meal isn’t convenient for some Friends because they are poor, some are too old to cook, and some don't know how to cook a special meal for the Workers. Some friends in the countryside are so poor they even have to borrow money for the meal. Some Sister Friends have told me how much they worry every time they received the arrangement asking for Workers' meal. I mentioned these things with Uncle Lyle one time. Today MT wrote an example of how the foreign workers arrangement are a hardship on some VN Friends: In VN uncle Hoa continues the same spirit as before. Not only bring the Good News form Heaven to friends in the very far region, but also bring some food, for don't made friends become heavy for the meal. Such as friends in Binh Long they work all day long for scrape the rubber latex, just earn less than 5 USD a day. Any times the Canadian workers visit, they had to borrow money for serving meal. "...for don't made friends become heavy for the meal." Cherie, I hope the readers here understand that the wordy "heavy" would perhaps be for us to increase our "burdens".....eh?
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Feb 5, 2014 20:11:36 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 5, 2014 20:11:36 GMT -5
I agree. A good understanding about VN would have prevented many misunderstandings. That's not quite what I was trying to convey. Hoa and Chau seem to know what it is to be good caring pastors and how to find the seeking. They could train the Westerners on how to do it and it might revive the Western church from its incessant decline. Hoa and Chau both seem to know how to help the needs of their friends as well as find people seeking a good faith and this is something that could be learned by the Westerners. I don't think that any people NOT Vietnamese could go into all the country and even if speaking the language would be accepted in those areas...as MT mentioned that uncle Chau and uncle Hoa both being native VN they can go into any area and are accepted and perhaps danger from road attacks etc....also they have the good sense to know that most VN in outer areas are likely poor people and to expect those people to feed them is adding a burden the poor folks can handle. And like the poor lady who had the workers for a meal and had to borrow money and then lost her government stipend! How burdensome is that? Greatly......the workers from out of the VN country in NO way can be effective in pursuing their work in the normal US and Canadian ways. It will close many doors in the long run and likely cause great burdens on those they demand to make meals for them! This is awful, it is not being brethren at all...it's being sold somuch on their positions over the poor folks....I'd hate to really know what goes on in those inconsiderate ruling workers' heads!
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Feb 5, 2014 21:27:22 GMT -5
Post by déjà vu on Feb 5, 2014 21:27:22 GMT -5
I heard someone comment following a gospel meeting where D.T. spoke last fall “he is not the same as he used to be, it was painful to listen to him.
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Feb 5, 2014 23:12:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2014 23:12:44 GMT -5
I heard someone comment following a gospel meeting where D.T. spoke last fall “he is not the same as he used to be, it was painful to listen to him. I wish him the best. I wonder if he feels he got a fair shake. Regardless, I think it's fair to say that he won't be moving back up the ladder anywhere.
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Post by minhthanh on Feb 6, 2014 7:52:45 GMT -5
Nathan, Hoa has never left his calling of being a worker for Christ. From what I can see and read in the posts by the true friends there in Vietnam, Hoa is continuing to share the gospel and minister to the friends. Perhaps you meant Chau was the one who left the work in Vietnam, as it appears he has been moved once again out of that country. From what I have read, those foreigners kicked Chau out of the church (that he is legally the head of), and then once they reinstated him, they then moved him out of the country to places he didn't even know the language. And if Chau has been moved from Vietnam (again) does that in effect place Hoa as the 'legal' spiritual head of the fellowship in Vietnam? If I were uncle Hoa and 100 the golden friends who left the 2x2 fellowship... I would do this! STAY where they are and doing what they are doing but LETTING Lyle S and the current friends, and workers KNOW.... When they see a big change in the current leadership they will RETURN to the 2x2 fellowship... or have change of hearts like MinhThanh has expressed in one of her posts, the possibility of returning! Then I believe Hoa and the 100 golden friends HAVE 100% support from the friends and workers around the world, with their cause or what they are doing right now. I will stand up, join them and fight for their cause against the Canadian workers, unwise behaviors and foolish decision! with all my strength.Nathan... You just suppose only, but never know Who is Lyle, and how he rules in VN !!!... Things happen not as you suppose. I will tell you the real picture when I have time. Now I see, we HAVE 100% support from Heaven. We were still in the fellowship with friends at my sister Minh Tâm's place, but seeing we disagreed with the way they did, then Lyle trying to push us out. Biginning with his cool face, then didn't want to shake hand with me, he ignoredus as if I weren't being there.(It was a very interesting story.) Many things I couldn't explain clear for you. It doesn't matter you believe or not. As to me uncle Lyle is really a twisting man. Seeing the young workers speaking something not in the Bible. Just repeated the same as her companion had said, my husband reminded her, and asked: " Please show me where in the Bible says "The past belongs to the devil" as you preached." We have read through The Bible many times, but never saw any written as "The past belongs to the devil".Her reply was: "I heard from one worker, but not in the bible". Workers (special workers recruited from Darrel, often metion somthing in their speech showing uncle Hoa was a false or acting wrong, belongs to devil... or something like that. We felt tired to hear, because we didn't reveive any help with the way they preached. Almost them are young. This young worker saying the same as her companion had said in the past. Immediatly they reported to Lyle, uncle Lyle had mentioned at my house that "Because you not support to the young worker so your place never has the gathering again." We never wanted to support people say anything not written in the Bible. After chasing uncle Chau, the fellowship at my house became terrible. Some disagreed with Darrel decision, others supported to Darrel. Then the fellowshing became the place to stone one another. I had sent an email to uncle Dale telling this situation !!!.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2014 8:14:29 GMT -5
An English word comes to my mind, "nepotism." Most often it has a very ugly head, and downright nasty personality, frequently resulting in tragic circumstances. When it becomes involved in the "body" of our Lord (church), it is a very corrupting influence. Just had word come to me via email regarding uncle Mike T in the Vancouver Washington area, that he appears like a thoroughly beaten man. What a sad report.
Thinking often of each one I've grown to know here. So very appreciative of those with compassion upon me. Have written the Washington Overseer again, pointing out the kindness of some here, and how it should shame those with control of the funds supposedly there for just such needs as my own. To me, it is a form of nepotism that keeps people like him from assisting. Que sera, sera.
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Vietnam
Feb 6, 2014 12:24:08 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Feb 6, 2014 12:24:08 GMT -5
Continue my story for you can figure out the real picture uncle Lyle treating with us. Even seeing uncle Hoa stopped cooperate with them, but we still continued fellowship with friends at my sister's place. (My parents were being in that church too). Seeing that we still respected, agreed and supported to uncle Hoa's work, gradually uncle Lyle changed his face becoming cool to me, even didn't want to shake hand with me. I often sit in front of workers in order easily to hear. After a few weeks noticing that uncle Lyle didn't want to shake hand with me. I told my sister Minh Tâm about his action. First of all she disagreed and didn't believe what I told her. The next meeting at her place,(After the meeting, while uncle Lyle went around shaking hand to each member in the meeting. I asked my sister standing beside me in front of Mr Lyle. He shook hand with my sister, then went ahead to other friends. Smiling and giving a glance to my sister I said: "Now you witness by your eyes, do you believe?" Immediatly my sister pulled his sleeve back, and asked him "Why you don't shake hand with my sister?" Of course he didn't know that was the day I wanted to prove his action to my sister. He turned back and shook hand with me, then "Sorry, for I haven't shaken hand with you !!!". When I told uncle Châu this story, he said to me, "I don't want to hear, don't judge other... If you still tell the wrong of others I will never contact with you anymore" My answer to uncle Châu: "I just want to tell you the truth, you may ask my sister Minh Tâm, whether it was right or not." Tân & Bình a very faithfull couple, (ex.elder) told me the same story that Mr Lyle.S show his cool face to them, while seeing they still cooperated with us and uncle Hoa, visiting friends in the countryside. Nathan, I want to close my post here as the end of the letter of a sister worker Mango Chango (aka) SW (A victim of an 2x2 overseer.) I realize you all can & will pick this apart and put it back together 100 different ways & you are all entitled to your opinion of whether or not I'm lying or not & whether or not Mr Lyle is really like that. Go ahead if it makes you feel better, it doesn't change the facts and it does not change what happened.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2014 16:01:11 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion - why don't all the friends in VN, who are presently under the control of the Canadian workers, just meet with the "golden friends" and Hoa? This would probably displease the controlling Canadians who would then disfellowship them. Chau could come back and be with them. And they'd have sweet fellowship as it was aforetime....
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Vietnam
Feb 6, 2014 16:42:14 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 6, 2014 16:42:14 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion - why don't all the friends in VN, who are presently under the control of the Canadian workers, just meet with the "golden friends" and Hoa? This would probably displease the controlling Canadians who would then disfellowship them. Chau could come back and be with them. And they'd have sweet fellowship as it was aforetime.... There are two sides to every story... Chau has chosen NOT to join with Hoa and 100 friends who left the 2x2 fellowship. I would like to hear what Chau has to say, why he doesn't feel a right thing to join with Hoa and those who left, right now. Chau believes the 2x2 fellowship is of God and from God..... But Hoa and many of the 100 golden friends, who left the 2x2s are no longer believe it of God.Based on what I have read, they don't think that those foreign workers are 'of God', based on their lack of love and care for the friends. I don't think the issue is with the friends, nor is it with the way they worship. The problem lies directly on the shoulders of those who came and destroyed the fellowship that they had prior to the foreign workers imposing their will on the church. As soon as the government is made aware that the one listed as the representative is no longer in the country, and that foreigners are telling this church registered in Vietnam what they must do...... then I would think that the legal registration will probably be transferred to those native workers who represent the fellowship in Vietnam. I am guessing that would be Hoa, as he is still a worker carrying out the work there in Vietnam.
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Vietnam
Feb 6, 2014 18:41:59 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Feb 6, 2014 18:41:59 GMT -5
Post Falls, Idaho USA June 18,1993 Dear Soldiers and Families, Recently someone gave me a copy of the 1965-72 Army reunion book. My heart has been deeply touched as I read what you have written there, and I felt moved to write to some of you, especially those of you who were in Vietnam. Some of you would know that it was my privilege to labor there with Phyllis Munn from 60-65 and 71-75. We very deeply appreciate your sacrifice and we wish you could know how much it means to your brethren in VN. They know they owe so much to all of you...and to all the US help. Gratitude is deeply felt, but hard to put into words. When we arrived in Jan. '60, the war was lost. Many, including military and government officials, came to see us to just beg us that America would come to help them, saying that if America didn't help them noone world, they had noone else to look to. We would explain to them that our work had nothing to do with the govt., that we hoped America would help them, but we had nothing to say about it. They knew they couldn't win and they were so discouraged. When the US sent advisers, in about '62, it greatly improved their morale, and helped for awhile. The first VN to get a revelation of God's way were Chau and Hoa, the two men who are in the work now. They made their choice in the same mtg. Others did, too, but never continued. Others made their choice later that year, and by '65 we had several open homes. If it had not been for America sending advisors, we likely wouldn't have been able to stay until these homes got open and meetings established. We came for our home visit in '65 and that is the year some of you went there. The other sisters left shortly after we did, and it was not considered safe for sisters to be there, so we didn't return until '71. We are grateful that the brothers were able to remain all those years. During the 10 years that US Service men were there, some went into the work and got established in the work...both brothers and sisters. This could never have happened if the US hadn't been there. They, and we feel deeply grateful. In the years since '75 Chau and Hoa have been able to remain active, though very quietly, and some have decided every year. They recently had a yearly gathering with about 100 present...after the gathering they went to visit the ones who couldn't make it. Two sisters continue to keep their lives free for the work, they are limited in what they can do, but they do what they can. The work has prospered since '75, we know that your efforts there, and your prayers for that little land have added much to the work there. It is wonderful that our prayers can go where we can't go. You would have wondered, as we did, why it fell in '75. I couldn't understand and as we left, only had peace in knowing that above all, God is working out a purpose that we can't see. We can trust and I didn't want to fight against God, but to accept it. A few years ago, Chau went to the North for the first time. He is a northerner, and could return to visit relatives and old friends. Since then, he has gone every year, some other northerners always go with him. Hoa is a southerner, so he couldn't go. Now, we have some brothers and sisters in different parts of the north. This could never have happened if the line was still there as it is in Korea, and would have been if it hadn't fallen. We are so grateful that some of you were able to meet your VN brethren there and have a little different feeling for the situation as a result. We wish you all could. We think of God looking down from Heaven to see if any are beginning to understand and seek Him. (Ps. 53:2) In 1960 He would see a whole nation on the road to hell, among them He saw some whose hearts were turned toward Him, longing for light and peace. God never overlooks a seeking soul...and no price is too great for their salvation. This life for all of us is very short and for all of us it ends in death. Life looks so different when viewed from the standpoint of eternity. Those who die in their youth, not knowing God, have less to regret than if they had lived to be old. It is very sobering to see the pictures of those five faithful young men who were lost in VN and to see the next page of eight men and one wife who lost their lives since, mostly in accidents...and we know that there were always more killed on the highways at home than in the VN war. When we die and how we die is not so important as what we do with the time we have here. May we all so live that the memory of our lives will inspire others to press on and live for things that outlast this life. It is my hope that these few lines may help you to understand better how much your time in VN has helped the work of God there and how much it will mean for many for eternity, and to help any of you who may have had a hard time coping with memories of days there. There are many things in life that we can't fully understand and Satan would like to keep us meditating on these things until it robs us of our joy and our usefulness in the present. I love Duet. 2:3 "Ye have compassed this mountain long enough, turn you northward" Sometimes I have found myself fretting over things of the past so much that I was missing the guiding of God for the present and it was necessary just to let the past sink into the past, in order to get on with what the Lord wanted to lead me into today. I long to know better how to just humbly let the lord lead today and to trust that He will guide us into blessing as we humbly follow. It was my privilege to labor in Sarawak, Malaysia, on the Island of Borneo from '76 to '88. They have a time limit there, so I couldn't stay any longer. I'm enjoying my time on the Washington staff now and am content here. If VN ever opens up again, I would count it a priv. to return, however, I doubt it will open up in the near future. We have just finished conv. at Bonners Ferry, Idaho. It will be my priv. to attend Boyden, Iowa conv. this fall. If any of you happen to be there, I would love to meet you. Now, I must let this he all for today, this doesn't require an answer but if you do write, I'll be pleased to hear. Your sister in Christ, Bonnie Dahlin Can I use this for Truth Archives, Cherie?
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Vietnam
Feb 6, 2014 18:49:51 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Feb 6, 2014 18:49:51 GMT -5
Yes you may, Quizzer.
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Vietnam
Feb 6, 2014 19:05:11 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Feb 6, 2014 19:05:11 GMT -5
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Vietnam
Feb 6, 2014 19:06:33 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 6, 2014 19:06:33 GMT -5
Continue my story for you can figure out the real picture uncle Lyle treating with us. Even seeing uncle Hoa stopped cooperate with them, but we still continued fellowship with friends at my sister's place. (My parents were being in that church too). Seeing that we still respected, agreed and supported to uncle Hoa's work, gradually uncle Lyle changed his face becoming cool to me, even didn't want to shake hand with me. I often sit in front of workers in order easily to hear. After a few weeks noticing that uncle Lyle didn't want to shake hand with me. I told my sister Minh Tâm about his action. First of all she disagreed and didn't believe what I told her. The next meeting at her place,(After the meeting, while uncle Lyle went around shaking hand to each member in the meeting. I asked my sister standing beside me in front of Mr Lyle. He shook hand with my sister, then went ahead to other friends. Smiling and giving a glance to my sister I said: "Now you witness by your eyes, do you believe?" Immediatly my sister pulled his sleeve back, and asked him "Why you don't shake hand with my sister?" Of course he didn't know that was the day I wanted to prove his action to my sister. He turned back and shook hand with me, then "Sorry, for I haven't shaken hand with you !!!". When I told uncle Châu this story, he said to me, "I don't want to hear, don't judge other... If you still tell the wrong of others I will never contact with you anymore" My answer to uncle Châu: "I just want to tell you the truth, you may ask my sister Minh Tâm, whether it was right or not." Tân & Bình a very faithfull couple, (ex.elder) told me the same story that Mr Lyle.S show his cool face to them, while seeing they still cooperated with us and uncle Hoa, visiting friends in the countryside. Nathan, I want to close my post here as the end of the letter of a sister worker Mango Chango (aka) SW (A victim of an 2x2 overseer.) I realize you all can & will pick this apart and put it back together 100 different ways & you are all entitled to your opinion of whether or not I'm lying or not & whether or not Mr Lyle is really like that. Go ahead if it makes you feel better, it doesn't change the facts and it does not change what happened. AMEN!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 6, 2014 19:25:00 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion - why don't all the friends in VN, who are presently under the control of the Canadian workers, just meet with the "golden friends" and Hoa? This would probably displease the controlling Canadians who would then disfellowship them. Chau could come back and be with them. And they'd have sweet fellowship as it was aforetime.... There are two sides to every story... Chau has chosen NOT to join with Hoa and 100 friends who left the 2x2 fellowship. I would like to hear what Chau has to say, why he doesn't feel a right thing to join with Hoa and those who left, right now. Chau believes the 2x2 fellowship is of God and from God..... But Hoa and many of the 100 golden friends, who left the 2x2s are no longer believe it of God. minhthanh said:Uncle Chau admonished me MANY times. Chau wants us to return to the fellowship. "Please, don't waste your time on the Internet, reading many things there you may lose your soul!" My reply was " On internet not only find out many things good for my decision, but also have had sweet fellowship throughout the world, with love and understanding. I had told uncle Châu as I had post in this board that, we will never return to that fellowship just because seeing all the happening in VN, with lies, untrue, injustice, without unity and love. We are happy now." ~~ Emy wrote: Jan 29, 2014 that minhthanh said: I don't know how uncle Hoa know about TTT website. In 2013, I had asked uncle Hoa:" may I post his heart letter into TMB board and send to Cherie as she requested". He agreed and said "Say hello to Cherie and thanks for her hard working, tell Cherie, that I had read her website 5 years ago (2009). Her writing helped me decide to leave the work, for seeing things happened in VN, just the same as many things she had written."Emy wrote: I think Hoa indicated quite plainly that TTT was involved in his leaving the work.With people still either telling one another that they will go to hell in a hand basket IF they leave the 2x2 fellowship or insinuating same message, how can one do anything but follow the "truth" about that which calls itself the "Truth" and bears little marks of truth in it, when having to make such necessary soul-saving decisions? Nathan, You've more or less made me feel like you were condemning MT and the other 99 friends and uncle Hoa to a lost eternity IF they didn't get themselves right back into the 2x2 fellowship/workership! I think that kind of message would likely send most people farther away. IT is the message of love that is important isn't it? Aren't the first two commandments in the bible about "love"? What do they say, Nathan? Isn't it "LOVE the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, mind, soul and strength. And the second IS LIKE UNTO IT...."love thy neighbor as thyself." We need to remember why Jesus Christ died, don't we? Was it not Love for the Father and to do the Father's Will being what enabled Jesus to turn himself over to the chief priests' henchmen? Was it not love that the NT scriptures tells us was the reason that JEsus came to the earth to sacrifice so that we all might be with the Father and Jesus for all eternity....doesn't John 3:16 tells us this: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Isn't that all about "love"? Now why is it that the foreign workers are NOT working with LOve toward those people...it is almost like they go in they're thinking down on those lovely VN people like as if they were not worthy of their best loving efforts at keeping unity because of love actions and not burdensome actions like demanding those poor folks to make a "worker meal" and those very same folks are apt to not being able to afford 3 meals a day for themselves? Or like the poor woman with children and she was receiving government stipend to help feed and clothe themselves, but when she had to borrow money to make the demanded scheduled worker meal she lost her government stipend....now she and the children are having to work harder, earn less and have much less. These workers should have the gumption that they cannot go into an underdeveloped country and expect to live like they do in the Western developed nations! This adding "grevious burdens" to those poor souls by the workers demanding to be entertained like they are in those western developed nations! This is pure selfish ungodliness.....and IF A MINISTER acts that way is it not likely that his/her behavior going to tell others they have NO LOVE for anyone but themselves? I know not too many months ago, Nathan, that your yourself thanked Cherie for having all of that historical stuff handy for the "readers to make their own minds up" or something of that ilk. Now you're spouting what the workers were saying against Cherie some years ago.....but they are not even saying that any more for they cannot nor can you produce any better evidence of the "truth" about the sect that calls itself "The Truth"! Can you? Yes you've struggled for the past 5 years or less maybe trying to convince all of us that we're just part of the Waldensenians......which I don't think any of the TMB have gotten around to being able to make their mind up to that fallacy.....WHY have you become so adamantly against Cherie's site? Something has gone on with you and you've had to stake a 2x2 stand I suppose or the workers would question your faithfulness to the workers more, eh?
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