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Vietnam
Jan 26, 2014 12:44:11 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 12:44:11 GMT -5
Nathan you still haven't responded to my question as to how you can feel that it is better to follow the directions and leadings of responsible workers whom you feel are clearly not doing Gods will, instead of like Hoa, simply and humbly in the spirit of service following the leadings of the Spirit of God to ones heart.
How can you feel that it is better to follow evil than good? Is there anyone on this board that honestly feels that Lyle Shultz, by his actions in Vietnam, is representing God in his organization?
Or are you supporting the idea that Dale Shultz (Lyles brother) invented, when he expressed that it was better to follow the workers leadings when they were wrong, than do the right thing on ones own?
Also what your insinuation that Chau was better off babysitting in Cambodia than in spreading the Gospel in Vietnamn?
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Vietnam
Jan 26, 2014 13:40:30 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 26, 2014 13:40:30 GMT -5
You probably didn't see these questions I asked, Nathan, so I thought I would bring them over to this page so you could answer them. I would be very interested in your views concerning what is God's work among the overseer ranks, and what you would consider to be man's work. Or do you feel that immoral, corrupt and lying overseers are actually carrying out God's work?........ And why do you think God allowed other workers to appoint Ira Hobbs to be overseer when he was a known abuser? Or why God allowed overseers to simply move abusers around without dealing with the issues. You truly think that was God's plan, or was that man's plan? At what point do you feel that something is 'of man', rather than 'of God'? Personally, I think that the Vietnamese govt should give the boot to all those foreign workers who are trying to come in and run a religion. It sounds like they are breaking the law in doing so, if I am reading the posts correctly. Do you think it is God's will that they be allowed to do that, Nathan? I personally hope that at some point the members of the fellowship take over the church and seize all assets and boot these horrible overseers out in favor of workers who are true spiritual advisers and preachers of Christ. (and no... I am not saying that all overseers are horrible) While you think this is some test of Chau and Hoa, I see it as a test of the church in putting up with such crap. And guess what....... ? The church is losing. It is losing more members who loved the fellowship, and once again had to vote with their feet because of horrible and unGodly decisions by senior workers. I haven't seen any evidence of "God" in any overseers' activities in a long time...that is a grave grief to me as well as being a serious disappointment...... The VN Canadian overseers have NO business being in VN....the VN church was thriving even in perhaps a country where many hardships have been and some still are. I think when workers from the more developed countries seek to go to VN, they should go in for a very brief visit, to given encouragement to those native workers and friends...letting them know that they are NOT forgotten in other countries, but that we all consider them to be of the family of God. Then non-native workers need to get the heck out of Dodge and leave them be....they were able to do what they needed to do as far as keeping their faith rich in the salvation by Jesus Christ.... So NO, CA overseers are not blessed by God for being in VN...but I suspect they are being tested to prove where their real love is and in appearance it sure is not that they are loving the Lord their God with all their hearts, minds, souls and strength....nor are they showing love for their neighbors/brothers either.....they are showing selfish human pride......
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Vietnam
Jan 26, 2014 19:37:22 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 26, 2014 19:37:22 GMT -5
That's very profound Scott.
The church is losing because the overseers have system-minded church members on a Kool-Aid drip.
Dale Shultz should never have been allowed to get away with this kind of attitude:
As always, my thoughts are that these senior workers get away with such things because the church members allow them to. At least that is what these senior workers must believe. In actuality, these senior workers are losing more trust and respect each time they pull out their bag of tricks. ' This attitude in dealing with the Alberta fiasco cost the church what? Did the senior workers gain any trust and respect for their actions? Did it bring more people into the fellowship? Did it prove to the church that the senior workers were looking out for the welfare of the church? Nope...... As in every one of these types of situations (as is happening in Vietnam now) we read that they LOSE trust and respect. They LOSE people who love(d) the fellowship. And they PROVE once again that the senior workers are more interested in playing power-play games rather than looking out for the welfare of the church. So now, we have another 50+ pages of posts discussing (once again) how senior workers abuse their place in the fellowship at the expense of the church as a whole. And what have they gained out of all this? Have they gained some measure of 'control' in Vietnam? I don't think so. Now you have families that are alienated, the peace of the church there is disrupted, and professing folks around the world are reading about just how inept some who used to be considered 'spiritual leaders' really are. Of real interest is reading the posts of those who are professing in regard to what is taking place. You guys are MAD at how these guys are acting, and you are MAD at how they are destroying your church. And what can you really do about it? Not much..... because there are so many senior workers who refuse to listen to the very people that provide them with food, shelter. money, transportation........ So what will happen? Well...... some more people are going to read about this, look at their local area, realize that their area is the same as Vietnam in regard to inept 'spiritual advisors', and yep...... eventually some more people are going to show their support by voting with their feet..... and walking away. I hear fairly often that it isn't always what is going on locally that causes people to leave, it is what is happening in other parts of the world that does so. [/b] [/quote] This bears repeating!
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 4:22:54 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2014 4:22:54 GMT -5
Can someone please help here ....... When Chau came to South Australia last year to be a companion in a mission, was he still classed to be in the Work as far as the VN people and workers in VN were concerned? The 'picture' we seem to have is that he was put out of the Work in VN so was sent down to South Australia to preach. Is this right, because to us a person is either IN or OUT of the Work. Cant be out of the Work in VN but allowed in the Work in SA? We heard him at convention and he seemed to be well liked. Darrel Turner, overseer, kicked uncle Châu out of work, and I know Darrel wanted to kick him out permanently. This information I knew from the Vietnamese teacher of Darrel Turner. God's people waited for a time (after 3 years), they saw these Canadian worker continually badly behaved uncle Chau, they have reaction. Uncle Hoa didn't agree with this Canadian Overseer many things and he knew that sooner or later he would have the same fate as uncle Châu. Furthermore, he had read TTT website and knew the truth about 2x2, he boldly left out 2x2 and didn't cooperate with these Canadian workers any more. By the reaction of God's people and uncle Hoa, they have to solve the problem by demoting Darrel Turner and sent another Canadian overseer, Lyle Schutz, Dale's brother to Vietnam. Lyle Schutz restored the work for uncle Chau furtively and sent him immediately to Cambodia. But some friends visited him in Cambodia, when returning they said uncle Chau stayed in Cambodia like a babysitter because he couldn't speak Khmer, so he taught English for many young boys and girls as a babysitter. And his companion is an Australian worker,LIoyd. LIoyd has an age worthy his son, but Lyle Schutz set Uncle Chau under LIoyd's control. It's a shame. Due to many Vietnamese friends could visit him, Cambodia has the same border as Vietnam, they sent uncle Chau farther, to East Timor, this place they don't speak English, they speak Portuguese. This country allow visa only 6 months. After 6 months, Lyle Schutlz sent him to Australia. And he preached in Australia and had a convention tour there. Then he was absent too long from the country, policeman ask him to return. He has returned to vietnam and Lyle Shutlz has a plan for him to go to cambodia again. My question is: Why the Vietnamese people need him to preach the gospel? I think Australia has a lot of workers,if there is a need to have more workers, I think some Canadian workers are staying in Vietnam can have a better job preaching in Australia because they have the same language than uncle Chau. And if he goes to Cambodia to be a babysitter, it is a waste, isn't it? Of course its a waste MT. They want Uncle Chau out of Vietnam as part of their takeover strategy, preferably further away than Cambodia because its too easy for the Vietnamese friends to visit. Its organizational politics, and I doubt that God has much to do with it.
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Post by Persona non grata on Jan 27, 2014 5:18:40 GMT -5
This verse was mentioned in our fellowship meeting yesterday, and it reminded me again of our Vietnamese brethren who are enduring sorrow and suffering unjustly:
For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. 1st Peter 2:19
To uncle Hoa, uncle Châu, minhthanh, and all Christians in Vietnam: Our prayers are with you. May the grace of God continue to comfort you and keep you.
To the foreign workers in Vietnam who are NOT displaying what ought to be the hallmarks of the ministry; humility and love: By enforcing unity of form, you are hindering unity of Spirit. It is high time you humbly transferred the overseership back into the hands of the native workers and allowed them to rebuild the fellowship in the Spirit.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2014 8:15:56 GMT -5
I believe God has allowed it.... to accomplish his purpose in Chau and Hoa's life, and those who are involved... To test their faith, characters, spirits, attitudes toward those who treated them ungodly and unkindly. It's a miracle how God opened the door and reinstated uncle Chau back in the work. God is GREAT. Chau's attitude, spirit continue to shine forth as the light on the hill to glorify God by forgive those who badly mistreated him.
In his letter, Lyle S. has left the door wide open for Uncle Hoa to come back in the work.... I hope Dale makes a great change and make things right with all those are involved... Maybe, uncle Hoa will come back to the fellowship and ministry.
Nathan Of course God allowed it -- He also allowed World War 2 -- and the holocaust. And sure, I believe that it is testing their faith and characters ... However it isn't a miracle at all that Chau was reinstated in the work on the condition that he leave Vietnam. This is how 2x2ism works to make sure that he doesn't threaten their support base in Vietnam -- as long as he is baby-sitting in Cambodia he isn't a threat to the power basis that they are in the process of setting up for themselves in Vietnam. At this point I would wonder why Hoa should even consider returning to the 2x2 ministry (and from what I understand he isn't at all considering this)-- When today he is actively ministering to the folks in his own land and field, completely in harmony with the spirit and teaching of God. Actually Chau after his original rejection, was only offered a place in the 2x2 ministry if he was willing to sell his loyalty to the folks he loved in Vietnam for 30 pieces of silver, a convention round in Australia, and a promise to do whatever the ungodly overseers felt was best. At this point we can only hope and pray that he will realize the enormous 2x2 deception that he made this choice under, and that God will open his eyes to the beautiful truth of Christian principle that Hoa has found, seen and proven.
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Post by vutrunghien on Jan 27, 2014 9:40:55 GMT -5
Talking about motor bikes, I remember the humble Kawasaki that Mr. Fred Allen was riding almost fifty years ago which a thief had attempted to steal from him when he parked it in front of the central post office in Saigon.
Big Boss Darrel Turner (if you should ever return to Vietnam) should imitate your father (in the Lord, of course) Fred Allen, and choose something more modest !
In my next letter, I shall write about my first meeting with Mr. Allen, in 1957, and my last visit to him (as my English teacher) in Brisbane almost ten years ago.
VTH
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 12:24:37 GMT -5
Post by emy on Jan 27, 2014 12:24:37 GMT -5
My question is if Chau and Hoa are both guided by God, why should we have fear or sorrow for either one? Perhaps God has led Hoa and the people who are with him where it is best for them and Chau and golden friends who are still in the fellowship the same, though they are in different places.
Why would one be right and the other wrong, other than through our human perspectives?
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Post by quizzer on Jan 27, 2014 12:45:37 GMT -5
Was DS an overseer in a different country from Willis Propp when DS brought this worker back into the work? I could be wrong, but I can only see this happening if the overseers are in different countries. No, DS was overseer of the neighbouring province of Saskatchewan. People who were struggling in Alberta appealed to 3 overseers in neighbouring states/provinces: Paul Sharpe in BC, Jack Price in Montana and Dale Schultz in Saskatchewan. There are indications that Dale opposed Willis in usual 2x2 fashion....in secret and behind his back, but failed to change anything in the short term. So when he took on the Alberta worker who was displaced for a year or so, he was already somewhat estranged from Willis. DS won eventually....he got Willis removed, Eldon Tenniswood passed away and he took over all of the Western Alliance with his own appointees in most overseer jobs. Anyway, the point is that he knew Willis was too weakened from the AB mess and that taking on one of his staff who had trouble with Willis actually enhanced his reputation. That's probably more detail than you were looking for! Actually, no. That explains why one overseer would work against another overseer. Usually, these guys are in lock-step with one another.
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 12:54:00 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 27, 2014 12:54:00 GMT -5
My question is if Chau and Hoa are both guided by God, why should we have fear or sorrow for either one? Perhaps God has led Hoa and the people who are with him where it is best for them and Chau and golden friends who are still in the fellowship the same, though they are in different places. Why would one be right and the other wrong, other than through our human perspectives? Emy, It is my understanding that the Canadian workers who have jumped into VN without thought or care for the native workers and friends, have made it nearly impossible for families to dialogue between one another and/or even friends that were so close BEFORE this evil spirit entered VN. The dividing of peaceful people is what hurts them all so much and the divisions are getting worse and worse due to all the underhanded and likely illegal activities such as the one younger native VN worker trying to please his CA overseer has actually intercepted uncle Chau's email and sent it to the CA overseer. Here in America that would be a big sin a big wrong.....I can't believe if the authorities knew that one of their natives was into that kind of dealing they'd either jail him or kidnap him to use him their selves..... None of the actions of the Canaidan workers speaks of one iota of the love of God....none!
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 13:16:47 GMT -5
Post by emy on Jan 27, 2014 13:16:47 GMT -5
My question is if Chau and Hoa are both guided by God, why should we have fear or sorrow for either one? Perhaps God has led Hoa and the people who are with him where it is best for them and Chau and golden friends who are still in the fellowship the same, though they are in different places. Why would one be right and the other wrong, other than through our human perspectives? Emy, It is my understanding that the Canadian workers who have jumped into VN without thought or care for the native workers and friends, have made it nearly impossible for families to dialogue between one another and/or even friends that were so close BEFORE this evil spirit entered VN. The dividing of peaceful people is what hurts them all so much and the divisions are getting worse and worse due to all the underhanded and likely illegal activities such as the one younger native VN worker trying to please his CA overseer has actually intercepted uncle Chau's email and sent it to the CA overseer. Here in America that would be a big sin a big wrong.....I can't believe if the authorities knew that one of their natives was into that kind of dealing they'd either jail him or kidnap him to use him their selves..... None of the actions of the Canaidan workers speaks of one iota of the love of God....none!Sharon, I've been thinking that you have put down that broad brush, but this one is just as broad as ever. You can't possibly know about all the actions of the Canadian workers! By condemning them for not having the love of God, woudn't you also somewhat condemn those who have chosen to continue in fellowship with them?
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 13:57:11 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2014 13:57:11 GMT -5
Sharon, I've been thinking that you have put down that broad brush, but this one is just as broad as ever. You can't possibly know about all the actions of the Canadian workers! By condemning them for not having the love of God, woudn't you also somewhat condemn those who have chosen to continue in fellowship with them? You're using a broad brush yourself now Emy! Many of the Golden Friends are opposed to the behavior of the Canadian workers but are still meeting with them for Uncle Chau's sake or to try to preserve unity with the international friends and workers community.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2014 14:47:48 GMT -5
You're using a broad brush yourself now Emy! Many of the Golden Friends are opposed to the behavior of the Canadian workers but are still meeting with them for Uncle Chau's sake or to try to preserve unity with the international friends and workers community. 100 golden friends and Hoa left the fellowship and they don't want to have fellowship/Sunday morning worship meetings with the current Vietnamese friends and workers. Many of the current friends in VN and the friends who are reading on here, are opposed to the behavior that some of the Canadian workers have done, but for Christ's sake to preserve the unity with international friends and workers community they/we are still in meetings... We don't leave our fellowship with one another, and with God just because of few bad workers behaviors.
What are the 100 golden friends and Hoa going to do when they replaced Dale with a feeder/true shepherd in VN? Will they return and continue having worship fellowship with us? It looks like, the majority of the golden friends that left us are content with where they are and have no intention of returning.
The biggest problem is not the bad behaviour of the Canadian workers. Bad behaviour is fixable. It is the fact that the Canadian workers think their behaviour is good behaviour. That's not fixable.
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 15:37:39 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 27, 2014 15:37:39 GMT -5
100 golden friends and Hoa left the fellowship and they don't want to have fellowship/Sunday morning worship meetings with the current Vietnamese friends and workers. Many of the current friends in VN and the friends who are reading on here, are opposed to the behavior that some of the Canadian workers have done, but for Christ's sake to preserve the unity with international friends and workers community they/we are still in meetings... We don't leave our fellowship with one another, and with God just because of few bad workers behaviors.
What are the 100 golden friends and Hoa going to do when they replaced Dale with a feeder/true shepherd in VN? Will they return and continue having worship fellowship with us? It looks like, the majority of the golden friends that left us are content with where they are and have no intention of returning.
Nate: You've already asked MT this question several times and she's answered you more than once. Hello??? When are you going to start reading and stop asking the same question??? On 1-25-14 MT answered you perfectly: After liberation day all the foreigner workers left VN, as to me they are passed on from that day, because no one among them return to VN to preach. What were we going to do after they all left. The golden time had proved for all people over the world knowing that God had led us through these decades. In God’s hand, and his planning for us, we don’t need to worry what are we going to do, God’s plan is perfect for us, we trust in Him. I dont see how MT could make it any plainer!How dare you imply that they have left God? -- It doesnt matter who the Christians are that the Golden Friends choose to fellowship with or who's house they assemble in. Remember Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt 18:20) They plan to let the Lord guide them and keep on doing what they did all during the Golden Time when there were no interfering overseers--wherever that might lead them.
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 15:43:49 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2014 15:43:49 GMT -5
You're using a broad brush yourself now Emy! Many of the Golden Friends are opposed to the behavior of the Canadian workers but are still meeting with them for Uncle Chau's sake or to try to preserve unity with the international friends and workers community. 100 golden friends and Hoa left the fellowship and they don't want to have fellowship/Sunday morning worship meetings with the current Vietnamese friends and workers. Many of the current friends in VN and the friends who are reading on here, are opposed to the behavior that some of the Canadian workers have done, but for Christ's sake to preserve the unity with international friends and workers community they/we are still in meetings... We don't leave our fellowship with one another, and with God just because of few bad workers behaviors.
What are the 100 golden friends and Hoa going to do when they replaced Dale with a feeder/true shepherd in VN? Will they return and continue having worship fellowship with us? It looks like, the majority of the golden friends that left us are content with where they are and have no intention of returning.
Thanks Nathan, I meant to say "friends" not "golden friends". The overseers have physically split the friends but they haven't won the hearts of minds of all who are meeting with them.
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 16:16:47 GMT -5
Post by emy on Jan 27, 2014 16:16:47 GMT -5
Sharon, I've been thinking that you have put down that broad brush, but this one is just as broad as ever. You can't possibly know about all the actions of the Canadian workers! By condemning them for not having the love of God, woudn't you also somewhat condemn those who have chosen to continue in fellowship with them? You're using a broad brush yourself now Emy! Many of the Golden Friends are opposed to the behavior of the Canadian workers but are still meeting with them for Uncle Chau's sake or to try to preserve unity with the international friends and workers community.Did I misuse "golden friends" since some are still in fellowship? Was that what I painted with my broad brush? I guess I'm not seeing what I said that was "broad brush." But I do wonder if the 2 reasons you gave are the main reasons some remain in fellowship, or if they are actually following what God has shown them.
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 16:27:36 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2014 16:27:36 GMT -5
You're using a broad brush yourself now Emy! Many of the Golden Friends are opposed to the behavior of the Canadian workers but are still meeting with them for Uncle Chau's sake or to try to preserve unity with the international friends and workers community.Did I misuse "golden friends" since some are still in fellowship? Was that what I painted with my broad brush? I guess I'm not seeing what I said that was "broad brush." But I do wonder if the 2 reasons you gave are the main reasons some remain in fellowship, or if they are actually following what God has shown them. Sorry, it was me who misused "golden friends" who are those not in fellowship with the foreign workers.
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 16:28:03 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Jan 27, 2014 16:28:03 GMT -5
My question is if Chau and Hoa are both guided by God, why should we have fear or sorrow for either one? Perhaps God has led Hoa and the people who are with him where it is best for them and Chau and golden friends who are still in the fellowship the same, though they are in different places. Why would one be right and the other wrong, other than through our human perspectives? Emy, What is "best" for them is God's will. Do you think that it would EVER be God's will to divide his people in half, to where they can no longer fellowship together?
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 16:48:33 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2014 16:48:33 GMT -5
Emy, the following post is what I considered broad brushing: You can't possibly know about all the actions of the Canadian workers! By condemning them for not having the love of God, woudn't you also somewhat condemn those who have chosen to continue in fellowship with them? We shouldn't condemn either the "golden friends" or the system friends because they're between a rock and a hard place. Either they endure the ungodliness of the overseers to preserve international unity, or they become outcasts of the international church. The overseers should be made accountable for dividing so many good people into camps.
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 17:56:25 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 27, 2014 17:56:25 GMT -5
Emy, It is my understanding that the Canadian workers who have jumped into VN without thought or care for the native workers and friends, have made it nearly impossible for families to dialogue between one another and/or even friends that were so close BEFORE this evil spirit entered VN. The dividing of peaceful people is what hurts them all so much and the divisions are getting worse and worse due to all the underhanded and likely illegal activities such as the one younger native VN worker trying to please his CA overseer has actually intercepted uncle Chau's email and sent it to the CA overseer. Here in America that would be a big sin a big wrong.....I can't believe if the authorities knew that one of their natives was into that kind of dealing they'd either jail him or kidnap him to use him their selves..... None of the actions of the Canaidan workers speaks of one iota of the love of God....none!Sharon, I've been thinking that you have put down that broad brush, but this one is just as broad as ever. You can't possibly know about all the actions of the Canadian workers! By condemning them for not having the love of God, woudn't you also somewhat condemn those who have chosen to continue in fellowship with them? Emy, I see nothing to stand up for on the right side of humanity within this horrible story that has come out of VN in regard "to the Canadian workers" who have divided the people who loved their meetings and loved one another. They've managed to divide not only friends but families." IF you can show me one iota of the love of God in their actions, I'll consider to speak a iota in their favor. THIS is NOT broad-brushing, Emy...for Pete's sake...I'm and others are talking about maybe 4-5 overlording workers! If you think that speaks against those who have chosen to follow those unloving overlording workers then that's your call....NO WHERE have I said a word about those people other then they're from the divided friends and some are from the dividied families. The divisions brought about by unloving overlording workers..... Emy, some people who worship the system and allow these type of workers to tell them how to go out and to come in DO need to back up and take their lives back for a certainty IF these overlording unloving workers continue as they have and NOT learned one lessons from the Alberta excommunications, then maybe these people should worry about their eternal direction! I am not judging them, but I know what it is to wake up and find one's self following and worshipping the system and having no real idea about what our beloved Saviour went through in order that it would be enough to save ALL of mankind without having some prideful and arrogant somebodies coming in between an individual and their personal Saviour, Jesus Christ. Emy, sometimes the truth hurts very badly....and that seems to be the thrust of some overlording unloving workers these days...where IS their love of God? It can't be too evident within them in the actions that they have done in VN even AFTER having excommunicated many many people in the Alberta Excommunications...they didn't learn anything that has to do with God in that experience, but they sure learned how to scare and control! Now they're using it on the poor dear VN friends and native workers! Do you consider that shows the love of God, Emy?
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Jan 27, 2014 18:12:07 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 27, 2014 18:12:07 GMT -5
You're using a broad brush yourself now Emy! Many of the Golden Friends are opposed to the behavior of the Canadian workers but are still meeting with them for Uncle Chau's sake or to try to preserve unity with the international friends and workers community. 100 golden friends and Hoa left the fellowship and they don't want to have fellowship/Sunday morning worship meetings with the current Vietnamese friends and workers. Many of the current friends in VN and the friends who are reading on here, are opposed to the behavior that some of the Canadian workers have done, but for Christ's sake to preserve the unity with international friends and workers community they/we are still in meetings... We don't leave our fellowship with one another, and with God just because of few bad workers behaviors.
What are the 100 golden friends and Hoa going to do when they replaced Dale with a feeder/true shepherd in VN? Will they return and continue having worship fellowship with us? It looks like, the majority of the golden friends that left us are content with where they are and have no intention of returning.
Nathan, Scott has over the past years spoken his thoughts as to why many people have left the 2x2 workers sitting in the dust. The reasons he ha cited having heard from the ones who've left are authentic. The ruling class of workers, most of them having been overseers for a number of years now and likely the previous generation of ruling workers and even further back, have corrupted the 2x2 fellowship.....there is nothing that can deny that! Sure there are people here and there going to the 2x2 fellowship mtgs. and not having a whole lot to do or say about what the 2x2 rulers have done or said. But also as Scott mentioned, it ISN"T always the things going on around the friends and workers, but often what has gone on around other friends and workers that has caused people to vote with their feet! I know it is my reason for leaving, except for the one little mtg. we were forced to withstand an "in part admitted CSA perp"! The Alberta Excommunications echoed around the world in the friends' hearts and minds and around the world there were people leaving for fear that someday that would happen to them or they'd be hearing of it happening to some friends somewhere else....NOW we are hearing about the same ungodly mess that the arrogant, prideful ungodly Canadian workers have done to the peaceful VN friends and native workers...There are MORE friends and perhaps underling workers who will leave the fellowship all around the world on this......the fallout of this horror is not just in VN! And WHY? When we learn to love our neighbors/brethren as ourselves, that is why! We understand their sorrows and griefs as if they are ours! Ezekiel 34 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: [but] ye feed not the flock. The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up [that which was] broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. And they were scattered, because [there is] no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek [after them]. Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because [there was] no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and [in] a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up [that which was] broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. And [as for] you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. [Seemeth it] a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? And [as for] my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, [even] I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, [even] my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken [it]. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make [them] afraid. And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God [am] with them, and [that] they, [even] the house of Israel, [are] my people, saith the Lord GOD. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, [are] men, [and] I [am] your God, saith the Lord GOD.
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 18:26:03 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 27, 2014 18:26:03 GMT -5
Thank you, Brownowl! And welcome to TMB....it can get scary on here once in a while...but just jump in and tell us athing or two...please! Again welcome!
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Post by minhthanh on Jan 27, 2014 21:33:46 GMT -5
We don't leave our fellowship with one another, and with God just because of few bad workers behaviors.
I didn’t know how uncle Châu had the fellowship abroad, of course many F&W there still appreciate & love him because of his very nice manner, his serving and loving God.
But when he returned to VN, immediately nothing smoothly for him. I had many thingsto prove that there wasn’t a harmony or sweet fellowship between uncle Chau and uncle Lyle’s staff. Even they are in the Cambodia convention. I wonder if God pleases to be in the fellowship without love and unity? Finding things to against, and doubt each other. Sweet in their mouth and outside but many bitterness in heart.
We left the fellowship of man made, with their system. We never excommunicate with our lovely friends, we are willing to have fellowship with F&W when or where ever they want with God, not under any system or rule by man.
Once again, all the mess happened in VN, by the Canadian overseers, both uncle Chau, uncle Hoa and friends never want to be in this mess.
We are better have a few in the fellowship, but all unite together with God.
My parents knew uncle Chau’s family when I was 1 year old. Even I was a naughty child, but however uncle Châu was close to me, taught and gave me many good advices to become useful in God’s family. I am the only one child in my family learning English and music from uncle Chau. So you can image how I appreciate, close and respect uncle Châu. Many days in the past we (I and my husband) worked together with him until midnight. Uncle Hoa knows that we are closer uncle Châu than him.
But now we respect uncle Hoa’s choice than uncle Châu’s.
Actually Chau after his original rejection, was only offered a place in the 2x2 ministry if he was willing to sell his loyalty to the folks he loved in Vietnam for 30 pieces of silver, a convention round in Australia, and a promise to do whatever the ungodly overseers felt was best.
I feel deep grief to read this though, but I had to agree with you Edgar that the 2x2 had given uncle Châu many opportunities in their fellowship, meeting many, many, and many very rich people in countries. (According to the picture he had shared to us).
I had mentioned him about God’s plan
In Luke 4 New International Version (NIV)
8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
I do hope that uncle Châu doesn’t sell his poor native souls, who he had hard worked to find for gaining joy with the rich people and their praising.
In the golden time, uncle Châu taught me how to play organ. I was not very good in music, but a little enough to help uncle Châu & uncle Hoa in gospel meeting. we do hope using our rest time in this life to cooperate together with F&W for our poor native souls. There are still a great need.
Uncle Châu, I do hope you give a glance here, knowing and understanding our wishes (the couple very close and always in your side as ever).
We don’t want to consider you as a worker working for 2x2ism, but a true worker of God.
Dear uncle, please remember...
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
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Post by vutrunghien on Jan 27, 2014 23:01:35 GMT -5
It was 1957 when my father, Mr. Vu Duc Tho, met Mr. Fred Allen for the 1st time. The address of Saigon Church, where they met, was 155 Trần Hưng Đạo Bld., in Saigon, the capital of South Vietnam
This was one of the oldest Protestant churches that belonged to the CMA (Christian & Missionary Alliance) denomination.
In one of the services at this church, my father saw one "American" sitting in the back row. At that time, very few Australians came to Vietnam, so my father thought Mr. Allen was coming from the USA.
Although being fluent in French, my father couldn't speak English very well, but when the service was over, he came to talk with this American, and managed to understand that Mr. Allen was a missionary coming from Australia.
As a fervent believer in God, my father had very high regard of all servants of God. He assumed Mr. Allen was one of the CMA missionaries, and invited him to have dinner a few days later, at my home.
As a nine-year-old kid, I was very curious about this tall foreigner who had a short mustache reminding me of the Charlie Chaplin films that I had seen before, so I approached the dinner table and hid behind my father's chair to watch him.
The man noticed my presence, and waited until I showed my face to roll his eyes, and fixed his gaze on me.
Then somehow, I began to see his ears wiggling back and forth, which was very interesting to me, and I liked him at one !
(to be continued....)
VTH
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 23:10:09 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2014 23:10:09 GMT -5
Sweet in their mouth and outside but many bitter in heart. I agree MT. System-minded people love outward peace and conformity, and they pretend that all is well beneath the surface. They might say nice things in meetings, but what fruit are they bearing?
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 23:14:37 GMT -5
Post by emy on Jan 27, 2014 23:14:37 GMT -5
Emy, I see nothing to stand up for on the right side of humanity within this horrible story that has come out of VN in regard "to the Canadian workers" who have divided the people who loved their meetings and loved one another. They've managed to divide not only friends but families." IF you can show me one iota of the love of God in their actions, I'll consider to speak a iota in their favor. THIS is NOT broad-brushing, Emy...for Pete's sake...I'm and others are talking about maybe 4-5 overlording workers! If you think that speaks against those who have chosen to follow those unloving overlording workers then that's your call....NO WHERE have I said a word about those people other then they're from the divided friends and some are from the dividied families. The divisions brought about by unloving overlording workers..... Emy, some people who worship the system and allow these type of workers to tell them how to go out and to come in DO need to back up and take their lives back for a certainty IF these overlording unloving workers continue as they have and NOT learned one lessons from the Alberta excommunications, then maybe these people should worry about their eternal direction! I am not judging them, but I know what it is to wake up and find one's self following and worshipping the system and having no real idea about what our beloved Saviour went through in order that it would be enough to save ALL of mankind without having some prideful and arrogant somebodies coming in between an individual and their personal Saviour, Jesus Christ. Emy, sometimes the truth hurts very badly....and that seems to be the thrust of some overlording unloving workers these days...where IS their love of God? It can't be too evident within them in the actions that they have done in VN even AFTER having excommunicated many many people in the Alberta Excommunications...they didn't learn anything that has to do with God in that experience, but they sure learned how to scare and control! Now they're using it on the poor dear VN friends and native workers! Do you consider that shows the love of God, Emy? In another thread speaking of a different topic someone said: If people believe that the F&W are the right way to go that is their belief. Why do you think your belief is any more valid that theirs? Because you have seen the light? I thought of this discussion when I read that. How is it so obvious to any person on the other side of the world which workers and which friends are right? And as I said before, who's to say that God has not led both groups into what is the right place for them?
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Vietnam
Jan 27, 2014 23:31:39 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 27, 2014 23:31:39 GMT -5
How is it so obvious to any person on the other side of the world which workers and which friends are right? And as I said before, who's to say that God has not led both groups into what is the right place for them? Let's not classify people as "right" and "wrong". Better to determine whether actions are right or wrong. You put forward an interesting thought that God caused the split but it doesn't look like God's work to me. Would God have moved the workers to put a division between MT and her sister? Would God banish Uncle Chau from the Vietnamese people he spent his life serving, to spend his last days in countries where he doesn't understand the language?
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Post by emy on Jan 28, 2014 0:09:19 GMT -5
How is it so obvious to any person on the other side of the world which workers and which friends are right? And as I said before, who's to say that God has not led both groups into what is the right place for them? Let's not classify people as "right" and "wrong". Better to determine whether actions are right or wrong. You put forward an interesting thought that God caused the split but it doesn't look like God's work to me. Would God have moved the workers to put a division between MT and her sister? Would God banish Uncle Chau from the Vietnamese people he spent his life serving, to spend his last days in countries where he doesn't understand the language? God sometimes works in ways we don't grasp until we see the greater picture: Would God have moved the workers to put a division between MT and her sister? Joseph? Genesis 50:20 Would God banish Uncle Chau from the Vietnamese people he spent his life serving, to spend his last days in countries where he doesn't understand the language? Abraham Gen. 12:1
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