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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2013 19:55:39 GMT -5
I did not make the claim. Evidently, from the OP that sacerdotal wrote, rational made the claim. Perhaps you should ask him where those statistics are. And again you're in error. I didn't make the claim.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2013 20:03:01 GMT -5
and did you just take the man's word for it without asking him if he had given the subject any thought at all before he converted or was just one of the those people who love to boast, "See, I was an atheist & now I believe, you can too!"
That their usual rhetoric! ;D Somehow the question did not occur to me as I did not have an atheist agenda. You said you give it thought. If it is so sure that there is no God, why does it take some sort of special care to think about it all? Is there an atheist pamphlet that says unless you have thought about these particular things in this order, you are not a real atheist even if you do not believe in the supernatural? Seems a bit convenient to dismiss any atheist who converts to Christianity as not being a real atheist to begin with. Sounds like, to me, the possibility of conversion hits a bit too close to home. Do you honestly think that after being in the "TRUTH" for 40 years, (and I was a very devout believer- & I did not leave because I found out, like others about the beginnings of the "TRUTH"- I knew that from childhood) do you honestly believe that I just woke up one morning and said, "Oh- I'm an atheist!"? ;D
Yes, there were steps that I took, often painful ones, to arrive at the conclusion that I did.
I have enumerated those steps before on this board.
So, that is not the reason that I'm stating what I have been posting here.
Most of those who say they "converted from atheism to believers" never gave the subject of what they believed any serious consideration before they became "born again," but oh boy, do they like to claim that they had! ;D
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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2013 20:12:45 GMT -5
Would there be any other indications of insanity other than the fact that they may have heard God's voice? Having auditory hallucinations does not equal hearing god's voice. You need to distinguish between people who experience an auditory hallucination and those who decide that their hallucination is the voice of god. Perceiving sounds without auditory stimulus, voices for example, is ab ormal. What you believe about that voice is simply your belief. What, that someone has an auditory hallucination and decided it was the voice of god? And if they decided it was Mickey Mouse would that prove that Micky was running the universe? Or when David Berkowitz claimed that his neighbor's black Labrador retriever talked to him did that really prove anything? You mean it is an anecdotal story with nothing to back it up?When new data is found the theory changes to accommodate the facts. The problem is, TS, you never provide any facts. Just stories.
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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2013 20:18:15 GMT -5
People kill even if they do not believe it is God telling them. Really? And would those people be theists? Is this a premise that you can provide supporting proof. Care to present some of this proof?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2013 20:42:00 GMT -5
Cover Image: September 2012 Scientific American Magazine See Inside Can You Make a Sociopath—Either Through Brain Injury or Other Types of Trauma?
Here is one article that I have read.
There are more in various others in the Scientific American magazines.
Can you make a sociopath—either through brain injury or other types of trauma? — Chris Daly, via e-mail
Jeannine Stamatakis, an instructor at various colleges in the San Francisco Bay Area, explains:
Psychologist John Watson, the founder of behaviorism, once said, “Give me a dozen healthy infants, well formed, and my own specified world to bring them up in, and I'll guarantee to take any one at random and train him to become any type of specialist I might select.”
If we take Watson's logic one step further, it may be possible to mold someone into a psychopath. Psychopathy, also called sociopathy, is defined by a lack of empathy, deceitfulness and complete selfishness. Current thinking is that although certain genes may predispose people toward psychopathy, their environment seems to provide the ultimate catalyst. Thus, a person who possesses the particular genes associated with this malady and is brought up in an abusive or neglectful household will be at a higher risk of exhibiting the traits associated with this disorder.
Severe trauma to specific regions of the brain can cause a person to undergo marked personality changes, such as in the famous case of Phineas Gage. While working as a railroad construction foreman in Vermont in 1848, he survived an accident in which a large iron rod was driven through his head, damaging much of his brain's left frontal lobe. Although he did not become a sociopath, the reported effects on his personality and behavior were so profound that friends saw him as “no longer Gage.”
An incident two decades ago supports the idea that brain trauma can lead to psychopathic behaviors. In 1991 convicted sex offender Phillip Garrido kidnapped 11-year-old Jaycee Dugard and kept her as a prisoner in his home for 18 years. Experts believe that Garrido experienced severe brain damage after a serious motorcycle accident as a teenager, which was compounded by intense drug use. Garrido's father said that his son had been a “good boy” as a child but that he had changed radically after the accident and had become unstable.
Recently neuroscientists have identified areas of the brain related to psychopathic behaviors. Subtle damage to the amygdala, a brain region that helps us process our emotions, may explain why psychopaths act so cruelly and cannot express emotions properly. Psychopathic behaviors are also associated with injury to the cerebral cortex, which regulates memory and self-awareness, and the frontal lobe, which is responsible for self-control and judgment.
Have a question? Send it to editors@SciAmMind.com
This article was originally published with the title Can you make a sociopath—either through brain injury or other types of trauma?.
Thanks for that. Now, do you understand that I mentioned sociopath and other maladies also to say that if hearing God's voice is a mental or social disorder, then you would find that atheists would be hearing God's voice just as much as Christians?
You say that there are atheists who hear God's voice who are not really atheists because they have not give it thought in the right way. Do you also feel that there are Christians who hear God's voice who are not really Christians because they have not given Christianity the right thought in the right way? Why did you not look up the term "sociopath " when you kept quoting it?
Did you understand anything at all from that article?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2013 21:03:15 GMT -5
and did you just take the man's word for it without asking him if he had given the subject any thought at all before he converted or was just one of the those people who love to boast, "See, I was an atheist & now I believe, you can too!"
That their usual rhetoric! ;D Somehow the question did not occur to me as I did not have an atheist agenda. You said you give it thought. If it is so sure that there is no God, why does it take some sort of special care to think about it all?
Is there an atheist pamphlet that says unless you have thought about these particular things in this order, you are not a real atheist even if you do not believe in the supernatural? Seems a bit convenient to dismiss any atheist who converts to Christianity as not being a real atheist to begin with. Sounds like, to me, the possibility of conversion hits a bit too close to home. I've found that nothing will stop a conversation like you, ts, & I have been having, dead in it's tracks quicker than when my former TRUTH credentials are brought to light & I can no longer be called just that "atheist!" who has never experienced anything other than being an atheist.
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 21:23:39 GMT -5
That was you, wasn't it ts? I seem to remember you saying that you were told to go to Israel when you had no means to do so. No, it wasn't me. I think I told the story a while back, though. Would it make any difference if I told the story about myself? Would a personal testimony of God's supernatural work in my life make any difference in your belief about God? Would anyone's personal testimony make a difference? What do you have to see or experience to believe that God is real and wants nothing but good for you with no condemnation? I thought I heard it from you. No it's wouldn't make any difference to me. It would have to happen to me before I would believe in a God. I could say I believe in God because others have had an experience, but it wouldn't be my experience and it would be something I would have to take on 'faith'. I need to personally experience God before I will believe in God. Otherwise it's just someone else's experience and there is no way for me to measure the accuracy, the sanity or the truth in any way about it. That's just how I feel about it, nothing personal ts.
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 21:30:27 GMT -5
And that's different from what I have been saying, how? I have been saying that schizophrenia is a chemical imbalance in the brain. However, if they are actually hearing an auditory voice, versus a thought in their minds you just might be schizophrenic and the only difference between you and someone who kills in god's name is the act itself. As Rational has pointed out, it is only 'considered' schizophrenic when the order is to 'kill', not when the orders are something good. I guess the question is this: would you do anything that you thought God wanted you to do, even if it meant killing someone for him? If you answer yes, that might be a pretty good 'red flag' that you just might be a danger to others. I don't think all people who believe in God are schizophrenic and I've been saying that all along. However, if you are hearing auditory 'voices' that you think are God, you might want to get checked out. Well, God is good and what He says is good and right. Killing people is not what God is ordering people to do. I know about the old testament and the countless people God ordered killed. That is a discussion in and of itself. Suffice it to say that Jesus did not tell people to go and kill people. Quite the opposite. It does, then, make a difference the message that one is hearing. The stories I have heard of God or Jesus appearing or speaking to people I know always had a message and there was more confirmation and follow through externally and more physically. Like a message given by God and confirmed by someone who had no knowledge of the message given to the person. That sort of thing. Yes, the message sometimes calls a person to do some radical things, but not harmful things. It might upset some people but not harm them. It has always been spiritually uplifting and encouraging. I find it very easy to ignore the obvious mental cases who are claiming to "hear voices". Not that I have talked to any such folks. But the ones mentioned in the news media are nothing similar to what I have experienced. ts, the ones that have heard God tell them to kill are within their rights to think it could be God. As you just stated God has done that before. There are people who believe in the entire bible's infallibility. Why would they think anything of God telling them to kill if it was explained to them that it was a good thing in the end? Your ignoring a very real issue by not taking that aspect of God seriously. Someone who is Christian but has a chemical imbalance could hear a voice they believe is God and they would not be doing anything that hasn't been done before for God. Think about that. Jesus may have not asked people to kill for him, but his dad certainly did.
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 21:35:44 GMT -5
If you see a man born blind receive sight in the name of Jesus, God's existence becomes fact. You need to get your facts straight, so to speak. What if that person received their sight from the power of the devil masquerading as God? Then God is not a fact from that event. You attribute the miracles to God through faith, not fact. Any one of those could be imagination, delusion, happenstance or coincidence. You attribute them to God by faith, not fact. That is certain one good way to explain away the absence of faith healing......not enough faith.......but it sounds a lot like an excuse to me. Thank you CD. It is faith not fact. And just to be fair, it's not just faith healers that explain away not healing as a lack of faith. You have to 'want to be healed' for it to work is just another way of saying 'you didn't have enough faith'. I think that is a very cruel statement when someone who is suffering is told it's their fault they weren't healed.
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 21:41:49 GMT -5
Would there be any other indications of insanity other than the fact that they may have heard God's voice? Having auditory hallucinations does not equal hearing god's voice. You need to distinguish between people who experience an auditory hallucination and those who decide that their hallucination is the voice of god. Perceiving sounds without auditory stimulus, voices for example, is ab ormal. What you believe about that voice is simply your belief. What, that someone has an auditory hallucination and decided it was the voice of god? And if they decided it was Mickey Mouse would that prove that Micky was running the universe? Or when David Berkowitz claimed that his neighbor's black Labrador retriever talked to him did that really prove anything? You mean it is an anecdotal story with nothing to back it up?When new data is found the theory changes to accommodate the facts. The problem is, TS, you never provide any facts. Just stories. A story is a factual event told by someone. At least it can be. This is said, that is done just like it was said...etc. You might or might not believe the story, but that does not mean that the story is not factual. Did you ever answer whether or not you would believe in God if a miracle happened to you or in your sight only once and it was confirmed in a definite way that it was supernatural and from God the Creator?
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 21:46:23 GMT -5
Thanks for that. Now, do you understand that I mentioned sociopath and other maladies also to say that if hearing God's voice is a mental or social disorder, then you would find that atheists would be hearing God's voice just as much as Christians?
You say that there are atheists who hear God's voice who are not really atheists because they have not give it thought in the right way. Do you also feel that there are Christians who hear God's voice who are not really Christians because they have not given Christianity the right thought in the right way? Why did you not look up the term "sociopath " when you kept quoting it?
Did you understand anything at all from that article?Because it the definition of any of these maladies does not matter. If there is ANY dysfunction or disease that causes one to hear God's voice, then one would expect to see just as many atheists as Christians hearing God's voice. Do you hear any of your atheist friends saying that a voice in their head told them to start an orphanage or give to the poor or leave their job and dedicate their lives to charitable work?
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 21:47:58 GMT -5
You need to get your facts straight, so to speak. What if that person received their sight from the power of the devil masquerading as God? Then God is not a fact from that event. You attribute the miracles to God through faith, not fact. Any one of those could be imagination, delusion, happenstance or coincidence. You attribute them to God by faith, not fact. That is certain one good way to explain away the absence of faith healing......not enough faith.......but it sounds a lot like an excuse to me. Thank you CD. It is faith not fact. And just to be fair, it's not just faith healers that explain away not healing as a lack of faith. You have to 'want to be healed' for it to work is just another way of saying 'you didn't have enough faith'. I think that is a very cruel statement when someone who is suffering is told it's their fault they weren't healed. I am saying it is the fault of the healer. I am saying the Church is at fault for failing to believe. I am at fault.
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 21:48:08 GMT -5
Actually, sociopathy and psychopathy are not mental illnesses. They are personality disorders. FWIW. Thank you. The point I am making does not depend on whatever label motivates the hearing of God's voice. If hearing God's voice were a personality disorder or an mental illness, you would expect that just as many atheists would have it as Christians and they would also be hearing God's voice. ts, as someone has already pointed out. Just because you hear voices doesn't mean you're hearing God's voice. There have been others that have stated the devil was talking to them or some mythological creature. There are many different kinds of voices schizophrenics hear. God is one of many. So why wouldn't an atheist that hears a voice because he/she is schizophrenic not hear any type of voice? They would definitely be considered 'ill' and having an abnormal episode. No one has said that it is only Christians or people that believe in God that hear voices and are schizophrenic. Anyone with a mental illness can and do hear voices if they are having an auditory hallucination. You keep on and on about someone saying it's only people who believe in God. No one has said that. Another thing. You are lumping sociopaths, psychopaths and schizophrenics into the same category. As HF stated, sociopaths and psychopaths have a personality disorder. Schizophrenia is a mental illness that can be treated by medication.
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 21:48:42 GMT -5
I did not make the claim. Evidently, from the OP that sacerdotal wrote, rational made the claim. Perhaps you should ask him where those statistics are. And again you're in error. I didn't make the claim. It would be nice to know what sacerdotal was referring to that you said.
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 21:59:13 GMT -5
Somehow the question did not occur to me as I did not have an atheist agenda. You said you give it thought. If it is so sure that there is no God, why does it take some sort of special care to think about it all? Is there an atheist pamphlet that says unless you have thought about these particular things in this order, you are not a real atheist even if you do not believe in the supernatural? Seems a bit convenient to dismiss any atheist who converts to Christianity as not being a real atheist to begin with. Sounds like, to me, the possibility of conversion hits a bit too close to home. Do you honestly think that after being in the "TRUTH" for 40 years, (and I was a very devout believer- & I did not leave because I found out, like others about the beginnings of the "TRUTH"- I knew that from childhood) do you honestly believe that I just woke up one morning and said, "Oh- I'm an atheist!"? ;D
Yes, there were steps that I took, often painful ones, to arrive at the conclusion that I did.
I have enumerated those steps before on this board.
So, that is not the reason that I'm stating what I have been posting here.
Most of those who say they "converted from atheism to believers" never gave the subject of what they believed any serious consideration before they became "born again," but oh boy, do they like to claim that they had! ;D
I was a devout believe in the 2x2s also. I also had to make some hard decisions and take some hard steps to get out. However, you are no more special than any other atheist for your effort. A person who does not believe in God because he gives it no thought is no different than one who has given thought to it. You should be proud of your brethren who have not given thought to it. They are purists. Why would they give thought to God if He doesn't exist? Why would they not believe there is a God if He spoke to him or appeared to him? Your experience is why I say the Church is at fault for lack of faith and lack of power and lack of being able to teach the scriptures with power. They workers in general have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof. They are responsible for turning people away from God and I am guilty with them. Like I have said, what Barry Barkley practices is little different from a good atheist.
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 22:06:32 GMT -5
Thank you. The point I am making does not depend on whatever label motivates the hearing of God's voice. If hearing God's voice were a personality disorder or an mental illness, you would expect that just as many atheists would have it as Christians and they would also be hearing God's voice. ts, as someone has already pointed out. Just because you hear voices doesn't mean you're hearing God's voice. There have been others that have stated the devil was talking to them or some mythological creature. There are many different kinds of voices schizophrenics hear. God is one of many. So why wouldn't an atheist that hears a voice because he/she is schizophrenic not hear any type of voice? They would definitely be considered 'ill' and having an abnormal episode. No one has said that it is only Christians or people that believe in God that hear voices and are schizophrenic. Anyone with a mental illness can and do hear voices if they are having an auditory hallucination. You keep on and on about someone saying it's only people who believe in God. No one has said that. Another thing. You are lumping sociopaths, psychopaths and schizophrenics into the same category. As HF stated, sociopaths and psychopaths have a personality disorder. Schizophrenia is a mental illness that can be treated by medication. Oh, atheists and Christians both might well hear other voices other than God's voice. But this discussion is about hearing God's voice. I am not lumping all those mental illnesses and personality disorders together. I am only saying(again) that whatever the ILLNESS ( look at the Subject heading) that causes a person to hear God's voice, if it were indeed an illness, you would expect to see it just as much in atheists as Christians. A person may well have one or a number of illnesses each at varying stages of development and on many different varieties of drugs, for that matter, when they hear God's voice. What I am saying is that you could expect there to be the same number of atheists as Christians hearing God's voice if it were a disease or malady of some sort. Not sure how many more times I will have to make that point, but I will keep it up. It really does not matter the label the malady has that causes the "hallucination".
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 22:11:47 GMT -5
Well, God is good and what He says is good and right. Killing people is not what God is ordering people to do. I know about the old testament and the countless people God ordered killed. That is a discussion in and of itself. Suffice it to say that Jesus did not tell people to go and kill people. Quite the opposite. It does, then, make a difference the message that one is hearing. The stories I have heard of God or Jesus appearing or speaking to people I know always had a message and there was more confirmation and follow through externally and more physically. Like a message given by God and confirmed by someone who had no knowledge of the message given to the person. That sort of thing. Yes, the message sometimes calls a person to do some radical things, but not harmful things. It might upset some people but not harm them. It has always been spiritually uplifting and encouraging. I find it very easy to ignore the obvious mental cases who are claiming to "hear voices". Not that I have talked to any such folks. But the ones mentioned in the news media are nothing similar to what I have experienced. ts, the ones that have heard God tell them to kill are within their rights to think it could be God. As you just stated God has done that before. There are people who believe in the entire bible's infallibility. Why would they think anything of God telling them to kill if it was explained to them that it was a good thing in the end? Your ignoring a very real issue by not taking that aspect of God seriously. Someone who is Christian but has a chemical imbalance could hear a voice they believe is God and they would not be doing anything that hasn't been done before for God. Think about that. Jesus may have not asked people to kill for him, but his dad certainly did. You are right. But that would make them a non Christian, wouldn't it. That isn't following Christ. Which would make them not a follower of God. God said "This is My beloved Son. Hear ye Him". He said that audibly. There are obviously a some atheists and Christians alike who are deranged or otherwise ill and severely lacking in understanding, to say the least. I do not think the existence of those types of people merit saying that serving God or being an atheist is a mental illness.
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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2013 22:18:58 GMT -5
And again you're in error. I didn't make the claim. It would be nice to know what sacerdotal was referring to that you said. It would be nice if you would read the responses. I explained in the very first reply.
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 22:22:14 GMT -5
Thank you CD. It is faith not fact. And just to be fair, it's not just faith healers that explain away not healing as a lack of faith. You have to 'want to be healed' for it to work is just another way of saying 'you didn't have enough faith'. I think that is a very cruel statement when someone who is suffering is told it's their fault they weren't healed. I am saying it is the fault of the healer. I am saying the Church is at fault for failing to believe. I am at fault. Okay.
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 22:29:40 GMT -5
Do you honestly think that after being in the "TRUTH" for 40 years, (and I was a very devout believer- & I did not leave because I found out, like others about the beginnings of the "TRUTH"- I knew that from childhood) do you honestly believe that I just woke up one morning and said, "Oh- I'm an atheist!"? ;D
Yes, there were steps that I took, often painful ones, to arrive at the conclusion that I did.
I have enumerated those steps before on this board.
So, that is not the reason that I'm stating what I have been posting here.
Most of those who say they "converted from atheism to believers" never gave the subject of what they believed any serious consideration before they became "born again," but oh boy, do they like to claim that they had! ;D
I was a devout believe in the 2x2s also. I also had to make some hard decisions and take some hard steps to get out. However, you are no more special than any other atheist for your effort. A person who does not believe in God because he gives it no thought is no different than one who has given thought to it. You should be proud of your brethren who have not given thought to it. They are purists. Why would they give thought to God if He doesn't exist? Why would they not believe there is a God if He spoke to him or appeared to him? Your experience is why I say the Church is at fault for lack of faith and lack of power and lack of being able to teach the scriptures with power. They workers in general have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof. They are responsible for turning people away from God and I am guilty with them. Like I have said, what Barry Barkley practices is little different from a good atheist. ts if someone has never given any thought to why they believe there is no god in a world where so many people think there is one then how would they know? Someone who has believed in God and worked through the reasoning process to come to the conclusion there is no god is far better off than someone who gave it no thought. If you don't know why you believe something it's real easy to switch to believing something else. Usually without much thought put into it either!
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 22:35:24 GMT -5
ts, as someone has already pointed out. Just because you hear voices doesn't mean you're hearing God's voice. There have been others that have stated the devil was talking to them or some mythological creature. There are many different kinds of voices schizophrenics hear. God is one of many. So why wouldn't an atheist that hears a voice because he/she is schizophrenic not hear any type of voice? They would definitely be considered 'ill' and having an abnormal episode. No one has said that it is only Christians or people that believe in God that hear voices and are schizophrenic. Anyone with a mental illness can and do hear voices if they are having an auditory hallucination. You keep on and on about someone saying it's only people who believe in God. No one has said that. Another thing. You are lumping sociopaths, psychopaths and schizophrenics into the same category. As HF stated, sociopaths and psychopaths have a personality disorder. Schizophrenia is a mental illness that can be treated by medication. Oh, atheists and Christians both might well hear other voices other than God's voice. But this discussion is about hearing God's voice. I am not lumping all those mental illnesses and personality disorders together. I am only saying(again) that whatever the ILLNESS ( look at the Subject heading) that causes a person to hear God's voice, if it were indeed an illness, you would expect to see it just as much in atheists as Christians. A person may well have one or a number of illnesses each at varying stages of development and on many different varieties of drugs, for that matter, when they hear God's voice. What I am saying is that you could expect there to be the same number of atheists as Christians hearing God's voice if it were a disease or malady of some sort. Not sure how many more times I will have to make that point, but I will keep it up. It really does not matter the label the malady has that causes the "hallucination". ts, even those who are mentally ill have a basis they are functioning from. If you already have a belief their is a god you are far more likely to keep that belief after you develop a mental illness. The thing that has been pointed out to you many times is that both Christians and Atheists are capable of hearing voices, probably even what they might believe was Gods voice while they were in a psychotic state. Once they are on medications the atheist likely goes back to his belief in no god and the theist probably still believes in God. The point is, both were mentally ill at the time they were hearing voices that didn't exist to anyone other than themselves.
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 22:41:39 GMT -5
ts, the ones that have heard God tell them to kill are within their rights to think it could be God. As you just stated God has done that before. There are people who believe in the entire bible's infallibility. Why would they think anything of God telling them to kill if it was explained to them that it was a good thing in the end? Your ignoring a very real issue by not taking that aspect of God seriously. Someone who is Christian but has a chemical imbalance could hear a voice they believe is God and they would not be doing anything that hasn't been done before for God. Think about that. Jesus may have not asked people to kill for him, but his dad certainly did. You are right. But that would make them a non Christian, wouldn't it. That isn't following Christ. Which would make them not a follower of God. God said "This is My beloved Son. Hear ye Him". He said that audibly. There are obviously a some atheists and Christians alike who are deranged or otherwise ill and severely lacking in understanding, to say the least. I do not think the existence of those types of people merit saying that serving God or being an atheist is a mental illness. If God and Jesus are the same being with the same head, then why would Jesus be any different from his father in the killing aspect? Were they just playing good cop/bad cop? I agree, neither being a Christian or an atheist is a mental illness. However, having auditory hallucinations is abnormal and a symptom of mental illness.
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 23:02:19 GMT -5
I was a devout believe in the 2x2s also. I also had to make some hard decisions and take some hard steps to get out. However, you are no more special than any other atheist for your effort. A person who does not believe in God because he gives it no thought is no different than one who has given thought to it. You should be proud of your brethren who have not given thought to it. They are purists. Why would they give thought to God if He doesn't exist? Why would they not believe there is a God if He spoke to him or appeared to him? Your experience is why I say the Church is at fault for lack of faith and lack of power and lack of being able to teach the scriptures with power. They workers in general have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof. They are responsible for turning people away from God and I am guilty with them. Like I have said, what Barry Barkley practices is little different from a good atheist. ts if someone has never given any thought to why they believe there is no god in a world where so many people think there is one then how would they know? Someone who has believed in God and worked through the reasoning process to come to the conclusion there is no god is far better off than someone who gave it no thought. If you don't know why you believe something it's real easy to switch to believing something else. Usually without much thought put into it either! If God doesn't exist, why are there so many people in the world believing in one or another or more? If He doesn't, why would it not just be natural to not think about it at all regardless of what others want to think? It does not appear as if Rational went through such an arduous process of coming out of meeting/Christianity. He just never believed in God at all because it is natural not to believe in something that doesn't exist. Just because you have been in conflict about the existence of God does not make you more qualified to be an atheist than the one who has never been in conflict. In fact, it might well make you LESS of an atheist. What specific thing would convince you that God exists? Man's testimony does not convince you. An atheist converting to Christianity does not. If you saw a healing or experienced it yourself and knew without a doubt that it was an infallible proof of God working, would you believe? Even if it were just once?
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 23:10:17 GMT -5
Oh, atheists and Christians both might well hear other voices other than God's voice. But this discussion is about hearing God's voice. I am not lumping all those mental illnesses and personality disorders together. I am only saying(again) that whatever the ILLNESS ( look at the Subject heading) that causes a person to hear God's voice, if it were indeed an illness, you would expect to see it just as much in atheists as Christians. A person may well have one or a number of illnesses each at varying stages of development and on many different varieties of drugs, for that matter, when they hear God's voice. What I am saying is that you could expect there to be the same number of atheists as Christians hearing God's voice if it were a disease or malady of some sort. Not sure how many more times I will have to make that point, but I will keep it up. It really does not matter the label the malady has that causes the "hallucination". ts, even those who are mentally ill have a basis they are functioning from. If you already have a belief their is a god you are far more likely to keep that belief after you develop a mental illness. The thing that has been pointed out to you many times is that both Christians and Atheists are capable of hearing voices, probably even what they might believe was Gods voice while they were in a psychotic state. Once they are on medications the atheist likely goes back to his belief in no god and the theist probably still believes in God. The point is, both were mentally ill at the time they were hearing voices that didn't exist to anyone other than themselves. Do you have statistics to back up your claims? Do you know Christians and atheists both who have heard God's voice and what they did afterwards? Have you ever heard of atheists converting after hearing God's voice? I do agree that Christians and atheists are capable of hearing a voice, calling it God's voice but that voice has nothing to do with anything that I would call "serving God". On the other hand, there is the distinct possibility that a Christian or atheist can have a life changing encounter with God and act on the voice and it make positive change in his life. How often do you hear of mental illness improving one's lot in life and producing positive change without medication or medical intervention?
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 23:16:48 GMT -5
ts if someone has never given any thought to why they believe there is no god in a world where so many people think there is one then how would they know? Someone who has believed in God and worked through the reasoning process to come to the conclusion there is no god is far better off than someone who gave it no thought. If you don't know why you believe something it's real easy to switch to believing something else. Usually without much thought put into it either! If God doesn't exist, why are there so many people in the world believing in one or another or more? If He doesn't, why would it not just be natural to not think about it at all regardless of what others want to think? It does not appear as if Rational went through such an arduous process of coming out of meeting/Christianity. He just never believed in God at all because it is natural not to believe in something that doesn't exist. Just because you have been in conflict about the existence of God does not make you more qualified to be an atheist than the one who has never been in conflict. In fact, it might well make you LESS of an atheist. What specific thing would convince you that God exists? Man's testimony does not convince you. An atheist converting to Christianity does not. If you saw a healing or experienced it yourself and knew without a doubt that it was an infallible proof of God working, would you believe? Even if it were just once? The only 'qualification' as you put it, for being an atheist is a belief their are no gods. Period, that's it. It's not a club you join. I honestly don't know what it would take for me to believe in God ts. There are so many people around that are willing to do anything to make people believe that I don't know that I would trust anyone to prove anything to me. I guess if I miraculously woke up tomorrow morning and had no pain, all my 7 herniated discs were healed, I might then believe in something greater than the doctors or myself. I'm not doing anything to try and cure the condition at present because there is no cure. I have had it for 13 years so it's a very unlikely thing to have happen. That might do it. It would have to be permanent though not just a one day anomaly.
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 23:19:49 GMT -5
You are right. But that would make them a non Christian, wouldn't it. That isn't following Christ. Which would make them not a follower of God. God said "This is My beloved Son. Hear ye Him". He said that audibly. There are obviously a some atheists and Christians alike who are deranged or otherwise ill and severely lacking in understanding, to say the least. I do not think the existence of those types of people merit saying that serving God or being an atheist is a mental illness. If God and Jesus are the same being with the same head, then why would Jesus be any different from his father in the killing aspect? Were they just playing good cop/bad cop? I agree, neither being a Christian or an atheist is a mental illness. However, having auditory hallucinations is abnormal and a symptom of mental illness. That is a topic for another thread. The world was in a certain state before Jesus and in a different state after Jesus. Similarly, the world was in one state before the flood and another state after the flood. The shedding of innocent blood is different than the blood shed that needed to take place to cleans the land. Jesus' blood ended the need to cleans the land by the blood of the guilty. Idol worship was also involved that polluted the land. There seems to be a feeling that God just loved to destroy people. I think that is a drastic misunderstanding. Again, I believe the Church is at fault for spreading that feeling. Especially controlling groups like the 2x2s. I hope that that changes.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2013 23:24:13 GMT -5
Do you honestly think that after being in the "TRUTH" for 40 years, (and I was a very devout believer- & I did not leave because I found out, like others about the beginnings of the "TRUTH"- I knew that from childhood) do you honestly believe that I just woke up one morning and said, "Oh- I'm an atheist!"? ;D
Yes, there were steps that I took, often painful ones, to arrive at the conclusion that I did.
I have enumerated those steps before on this board.
So, that is not the reason that I'm stating what I have been posting here.
Most of those who say they "converted from atheism to believers" never gave the subject of what they believed any serious consideration before they became "born again," but oh boy, do they like to claim that they had! ;D
I was a devout believe in the 2x2s also. I also had to make some hard decisions and take some hard steps to get out. However, you are no more special than any other atheist for your effort. 1) A person who does not believe in God because he gives it no thought is no different than one who has given thought to it. You should be proud of your brethren who have not given thought to it. They are purists. Why would they give thought to God if He doesn't exist? Why would they not believe there is a God if He spoke to him or appeared to him? 2) Your experience is why I say the Church is at fault for lack of faith and lack of power and lack of being able to teach the scriptures with power. They workers in general have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof. They are responsible for turning people away from God and I am guilty with them. Like I have said, what Barry Barkley practices is little different from a good atheist. 1) If one doesn't "give any thought to" anything, how do they know whether to believe or not believe something?
Are you saying that you haven't "given any thought to" Christianity? Are you just thoughtlessly believing it? Like a robot? Then why don't you also believe in the Hindu god Kali?
Humn--Maybe that is the difference between me & you. I give things a lot of thought before I come to a conclusion! ;D
2) Why is my experience with the "TRUTH" any different than your own?
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 23:27:50 GMT -5
ts, even those who are mentally ill have a basis they are functioning from. If you already have a belief their is a god you are far more likely to keep that belief after you develop a mental illness. The thing that has been pointed out to you many times is that both Christians and Atheists are capable of hearing voices, probably even what they might believe was Gods voice while they were in a psychotic state. Once they are on medications the atheist likely goes back to his belief in no god and the theist probably still believes in God. The point is, both were mentally ill at the time they were hearing voices that didn't exist to anyone other than themselves. Do you have statistics to back up your claims? Do you know Christians and atheists both who have heard God's voice and what they did afterwards? Have you ever heard of atheists converting after hearing God's voice? I do agree that Christians and atheists are capable of hearing a voice, calling it God's voice but that voice has nothing to do with anything that I would call "serving God". On the other hand, there is the distinct possibility that a Christian or atheist can have a life changing encounter with God and act on the voice and it make positive change in his life. How often do you hear of mental illness improving one's lot in life and producing positive change without medication or medical intervention? There is probably a difference between actually hearing an audible voice and thinking you're hearing god talking to you. Schizophrenics actually hear an audible voice. Most people have brain chatter, actually all people have brain chatter if you have a working left brain. That's not what we're talking about here. So I would think that if you believe in God and believe he is guiding you it would make you feel good. On the other hand if you 'are' hearing audible voices, they could very well feel pretty awful because from what I've been told, the voices are pretty persistent.
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