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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 18:45:05 GMT -5
I believe Greg's point was, how do you know? Some of the workers have abused enough people that the gossip grapevine has issued warnings. These are the cases where a boycott is most needed to make a statement. I was about 12 years old when the gossip grapevine (a girl in my field) first warned me about suspicious behavior of a brother worker in my state. The man was quietly put out of the work shortly after that, and my mother had no idea why when I mentioned the case to her about 20 years later. Our family somehow has always managed never to know anything about anyone (we're introverts and loners) and the grapevine has never worked for us. I remember Mom asking one of the friends 'whatever happened to Rueben Mata?' It was so far after the fact that he was already dead and buried--you can imagine that as soon as she asked the question, the house got REAL quiet. We just didn't know. Call us The Oblivious Family, because we sure don't try not to know. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 21, 2013 20:15:28 GMT -5
I was about 12 years old when the gossip grapevine (a girl in my field) first warned me about suspicious behavior of a brother worker in my state. The man was quietly put out of the work shortly after that, and my mother had no idea why when I mentioned the case to her about 20 years later. So lots of people were not given the opportunity to pray for him? James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 21, 2013 20:39:25 GMT -5
Bring on the royal commission then. Fixit you seem to know a lot about it all. Tell them all you know. Stand up for us. But in this case if a victim doesn't go to the authorities themselves esp. after they're of legal age, then they also might get send to jail for NON-reporting....yea thats a good way to bring out the victim's stories!  |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 21, 2013 20:43:22 GMT -5
We should try not to get too emotional. The man second top line, far right has been to court,copted 6months gaol sentence. With a bit of help was able to manoeuvre out and not serve. The person Steve Schulz spoke to Alan Kitto about has not been identified. I still am not sure exactly what he did? But I do get a bit emotional when it comes to children. There's no excuse! I understand they may not be able to control their urge (sic). But if they had any conscience whatsoever, they would request that they not be put in the position where they could perpetuate such a crime. This is human decency! This is much worse than punching someone in the face just because one feels the urge! This is crime against children! They are ruining a child's life before it even starts! I have no respect for those that stand by and let it happen. They are spineless people with no conscience themselves! This just burns me! I think all the friends in that area need to get a bit more emotional! Maybe then, enablers like David Leitch would think twice about giving someone that does have a conscience the boot. STEP UP PEOPLE - FOR THE SAKE OF THE FELLOWSHIP! A tree is known by its fruit. This fruit is not just rotten, its poisonous! Before we all get too taken up here...I still have to wonder why it is that SS didn't go to the authorities himself...even if it is an alleged offense, it isn't his place to say "oh well, I'll let the overseers deal with that." But yes, I know that the overseers perhaps have told the workers under them that they MUST come to them first before telling anyone else of any alleged CSA or other sexual behaviours...... |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 21, 2013 20:48:08 GMT -5
I believe Greg's point was, how do you know? Question them at the door? How honest can they afford to be if they think they will be removed from the work if they don't support the overseer? I have no clue how the workers in my field feel about the proper way to handle these things, how would the folks in the area know? Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious, like they already know how each worker feels and then, support only those who support getting the police involved. Nathan, I don't think this will budge these overseers at all...they've sat down on this and are going to do it like they want to do it and no one is to say nay to them about it....they don't give ten hoots about underling workers and all the friends...those people are very welcome by those set-in overseers to just go away...they don't need anybody now, they've got all they need stashed away for that rainy day...most of them know to live another 20 yrs. is not likely and if so half of that is apt to be spent in the nursing home IF the friends have anything to do with it. The sooner the overseers get rid of the members of the fellowship the sooner they can retire in the Bahamas and then they can drink all the Kool-aid they so well wish. I am not saying ALL overseers, but suspect it is the majority of them that are holding up the works and the only way the other overseers are going to keep their jobs is to keep mum......same old story, and about the 100th verse! |
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Post by jondough on Jan 21, 2013 21:35:59 GMT -5
You know the friends have their own grapevine, they talk on the phone about so and so worker.... With an uproar with discontenment of the friends and workers around the world with CSA within the ministry on how some of the overseers aren't handling it correctly... Hopefully, the overseers around the world will come to agreement what to do with CSA within the ministry, which is to encourage the friends, workers to report to the police instead of coming to them/workers/overseers. Nathan, I don't think this will budge these overseers at all...they've sat down on this and are going to do it like they want to do it and no one is to say nay to them about it....they don't give ten hoots about underling workers and all the friends...those people are very welcome by those set-in overseers to just go away...they don't need anybody now, they've got all they need stashed away for that rainy day...most of them know to live another 20 yrs. is not likely and if so half of that is apt to be spent in the nursing home IF the friends have anything to do with it. The sooner the overseers get rid of the members of the fellowship the sooner they can retire in the Bahamas and then they can drink all the Kool-aid they so well wish. I am not saying ALL overseers, but suspect it is the majority of them that are holding up the works and the only way the other overseers are going to keep their jobs is to keep mum......same old story, and about the 100th verse! Where in the world do you come up with this stuff?  ? Overseers wanting to get rid of all the friends so they can retire with all their stashed away cash, drinking Kool-aid in the Bahamas? Were you trying to be funny? Or are you serious? This is one wild conspiracy theory! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2013 7:45:54 GMT -5
Well, the overseers around the world better WAKE up! this CSA thing is going to BLOW up in their faces... Jail time! for not reporting! to the authority! They might put some of overseers, workers or the friends in prison to make an example! for NOT reporting CSA to the police.
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This whole matter of CSA is gaining momentum, it is like a wild fire getting out of control and once it gets out of control it can cause an awful lot of damage, disruption and destruction of the fellowship. Bad things that happen in the dark will most likely come to light, in these days of enlightenment, especially if they adversely affect the victims, as CSA does. We just cannot afford to have wolves in sheep’s clothing in our midst.
The ostrich mentality of burying ones head in the sand and hoping/pretending that it will go away will no longer work. The cat is out of the bag and people are aware of what is going on and are hurting.
People are nervous with anxiety as a result of all these claims made and some proven, and they have the right to know Who they can trust with their children in their homes and out of their homes; it is a sign of the times in which we are living. There is fire producing the smoke that is being seen. Our mother always said to us that there is never smoke without fire, of course there are exceptions.
A few years ago, I watched an interview on TV of a famous American black boxer who was accused of being very harsh to white folks, and when the interviewer reminded him that not all white folks are bad or evil, he said that he understood that quite well however, to clarify his point he drew an example: he said if you brought a basket of snakes to me and told me they are all non-poisonous snakes except for one snake that was deadly poisonous, would you expect me to push my hand in that basket without some fear, concern and reservations?
It is often said that one bad apple can spoil a whole barrel.
We have to be able to trust people especially those in authority and have peace of mind with those we encounter and interact with.
Decisive action is needed now to put right what is wrong, shoving it under the carpet will no longer do. God appreciates it when we serve Him in spirit and in truth. Silence is not always golden.
PS. Take note of the current case involving the late Jimmy Saville in the UK. He has died and cannot now face justice, but other prominent abusers have now been caught in the net.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2013 8:32:58 GMT -5
PS. Take note of the current case involving the late Jimmy Saville in the UK. He has died and cannot now face justice, but other prominent abusers have now been caught in the net.
Good point p/t. The Jimmy Saville case is an extreme but excellent example of the dangers in raising a person up to revered status on account of their position and good work. He was a very powerful figure who was given an enormous amount of trust and that along with dependency upon him for benefits led many to turning a blind eye or playing down suspicions. A number of establishments which housed or accommodated the most vulnerable in our society, actually welcomed him with open arms and even provided him with his own domestic quarters and offices within these establishments.
He became untouchable, the direct opposite of his true character.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jan 22, 2013 8:55:21 GMT -5
That's the sticky wicket. Maybe an overall boycott of all workers staying in your home until this is sorted out? Now that would be interesting! Hberry I would suspect that the 1st one doing that would get quickly drummed out as an example not to mess with the workers ken |
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 22, 2013 10:34:33 GMT -5
That's the sticky wicket. Maybe an overall boycott of all workers staying in your home until this is sorted out? Now that would be interesting! Hberry I would suspect that the 1st one doing that would get quickly drummed out as an example not to mess with the workers ken I think it would work just fine. If they call and ask if they can stay, you just say no. This is already being done by some who simply say that it isn't a convenient time. What are they going to do? It is NOT their house, and they really can't force themselves onto anyone. And..... if they say that they are going to 'take away your part' in meetings, then just take a few Sundays off and let the elder know that you won't be there since 'the workers' took away your part in meetings. For many meetings, having 2 or 3 couples not show up would be most of the meeting, and the word will get out real quick that the workers are bullying anyone that doesn't put up with their demands of FREE FOOD AND LODGING. |
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Post by lazarus66 on Jan 22, 2013 11:43:18 GMT -5
If a worker commits an act that would be considered CSA or even rape (Like **) if they were to repent and want to be forgiven, shouldn't they go to the authorities and turn themselves in and confess to them what they did, so that the proper actions can be taken?
I remember a conversation about if someone committed a murder and was never caught. It was determined, by workers, that they would be required to go to the authorities and confess. I think that is the appropriate thing to do, if they are serious about wanting to be totally forgiven.
* please avoid using initials that identify someone who has been accused of a serious criminal matter, yet untested by the courts. Thanks, admin
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2013 11:50:08 GMT -5
If a worker commits an act that would be considered CSA or even rape (Like LW) if they were to repent and want to be forgiven, shouldn't they go to the authorities and turn themselves in and confess to them what they did, so that the proper actions can be taken? I remember a conversation about if someone committed a murder and was never caught. It was determined, by workers, that they would be required to go to the authorities and confess. I think that is the appropriate thing to do, if they are serious about wanting to be totally forgiven. absolutely |
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Post by jondough on Jan 22, 2013 12:03:36 GMT -5
If a worker commits an act that would be considered CSA or even rape (Like LW) if they were to repent and want to be forgiven, shouldn't they go to the authorities and turn themselves in and confess to them what they did, so that the proper actions can be taken? I remember a conversation about if someone committed a murder and was never caught. It was determined, by workers, that they would be required to go to the authorities and confess. I think that is the appropriate thing to do, if they are serious about wanting to be totally forgiven. The major key there Dale is "if they were to repent". I don't think any of them just decided to repent. They were caught, and could no longer deny it. Most of them go down still denying the fact that they did anything wrong. They simply need to be turned in to the authorities. Then anyone that can provide ANY evidence that can help, needs to come forward and provide the evidence to the authorities. If our workers want to get rid of this evil within the fellowship, they need to educate W&F both to understand this. Everyone MUST be resolved to this prior to it happening close to you. F&W both must commit that if it happens - it goes straight to the authorities (first) - then all evidence is provided - no matter how close to this person you are. THAT will make the difference. When offenders end up at the crowbar hotel, and they start realizing that everyone is educated on this stuff, and there is no tolerance by neither F or W, potential perpetrators will not let their minds go there. |
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Jan 22, 2013 18:07:38 GMT -5
Hberry I would suspect that the 1st one doing that would get quickly drummed out as an example not to mess with the workers ken I think it would work just fine. If they call and ask if they can stay, you just say no. This is already being done by some who simply say that it isn't a convenient time. What are they going to do? It is NOT their house, and they really can't force themselves onto anyone. And..... if they say that they are going to 'take away your part' in meetings, then just take a few Sundays off and let the elder know that you won't be there since 'the workers' took away your part in meetings.For many meetings, having 2 or 3 couples not show up would be most of the meeting, and the word will get out real quick that the workers are bullying anyone that doesn't put up with their demands of FREE FOOD AND LODGING. An interesting tactic... this would depend on the elder... some would still blindly follow the workers |
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Post by pinky on Jan 23, 2013 7:50:08 GMT -5
So, back to the OP .....  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2013 8:43:41 GMT -5
So, back to the OP ..... Yep, round and round and round we go, where/when will it end no one knows. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 26, 2013 22:08:59 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 20:02:39 GMT -5
I am outraged that professing people would recommend the grapevine to get our information on which worker can be trusted or not. I am not part of a grapevine, as I have no professing family, and have not professed long enough to belong to a clique, nor do I care to. Who do I turn to? ? NathanB, I read all your posts with great interest and respect, but here I do not agree with you on the method. I would rather see open and constructive conversation about problems among friends and workers that includes everyone, and that leads to real solutions, rather than gossip in secret. If that is how things are solved in this way, I am greatly disappointed. |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 28, 2013 20:14:18 GMT -5
That's the sticky wicket. Maybe an overall boycott of all workers staying in your home until this is sorted out? Now that would be interesting! Actually I think you're on to something, Hberry! I know it would be awfully hard to turn away the lowly and young field workers, but at the same time IF the workers were put into a position that they were going to have to do something because ALL workers are no longer welcome in the friends' homes....UNTIL the power workers change some of their thoughts and get with the CSA program. Whereas if only the supporting CSA workers are not welcomed then they will say that's okay and use the money they have to rent a motel, etc. But if ALL workers needed to use the motels, etc then I think the message would be adequate....but then one might have to do it all over again in a short while becausse the habits of the workers are set and they don't want to change.... |
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Post by Greg on Jan 28, 2013 20:46:42 GMT -5
I am outraged that professing people would recommend the grapevine to get our information on which worker can be trusted or not. I am not part of a grapevine, as I have no professing family, and have not professed long enough to belong to a clique, nor do I care to. Who do I turn to? ? NathanB, I read all your posts with great interest and respect, but here I do not agree with you on the method. I would rather see open and constructive conversation about problems among friends and workers that includes everyone, and that leads to real solutions, rather than gossip in secret. If that is how things are solved in this way, I am greatly disappointed. |
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Post by Done4now on Jan 28, 2013 21:01:05 GMT -5
Thanks, for your kind words. Can you tell me what method was I using that you were disappointed in. I don't know what you referring to. Can you give me more details. Thanks. Anyone who is outraged by gossip, should steer clear of TMB. Unfortunately, the gossip grapevine is the only way to know what is going on in the group. Unless sharyl wants to start printing a newsbulletin? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 21:35:36 GMT -5
Thank you Greg for your help. That's exactly what I had in mind. I am sorry for sounding angry, I am not angry, I am in despair, crying as I am writing. Why am I here on this board at all? Because the ones I have talked to in person about sexual immorality, CSA in particular, are not crying. At the cost of sounding completely foolish to those who have left the fellowship, I will say that I care, I deeply care about the fellowship, and I am oh so disappointed.
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Post by sharonhargreaves on Jan 28, 2013 21:55:03 GMT -5
Dale Shulz doesn't have the letter "t" in his name. For what it's worth and if it really matters? the Dale Shultz from Saskatchewan - now in Ca spells his name Dale Shultz |
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Post by Greg on Jan 28, 2013 21:57:17 GMT -5
I am outraged that professing people would recommend the grapevine to get our information on which worker can be trusted or not. You know the friends have their own grapevine, they talk on the phone about so and so worker.... With an uproar with discontenment of the friends and workers around the world with CSA within the ministry on how some of the overseers aren't handling it correctly... Hopefully, the overseers around the world will come to agreement what to do with CSA within the ministry, which is to encourage the friends, workers to report to the police instead of coming to them/workers/overseers. |
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Post by holdmyhand on Jan 28, 2013 22:08:12 GMT -5
I am outraged that professing people would recommend the grapevine to get our information on which worker can be trusted or not. I am not part of a grapevine, as I have no professing family, and have not professed long enough to belong to a clique, nor do I care to. Who do I turn to? ? NathanB, I read all your posts with great interest and respect, but here I do not agree with you on the method. I would rather see open and constructive conversation about problems among friends and workers that includes everyone, and that leads to real solutions, rather than gossip in secret. If that is how things are solved in this way, I am greatly disappointed. Sharyl I think it is fair to say most of us here are (or have been) greatly disappointed in the way things are handled Open and constructive conversation could go a long way towards solving a lot of the problems, however we are dealing with a workership that maintains is has ultimate authority from God and cannot be questioned, when the process of time reveals wrong decisions were made they fall back on the excuse we are only human but the way is perfect. Once you have experienced the lack of honesty, justice, accountability and love that people experience from workers and see the lengths they go to to discredit or lie to cover up their mistakes you understand why the grapevine and TMB is used I am not saying all workers are like this but too many of them are not standing up for what they know is right, loyalty to the overseers takes precedence. If they all stood together with SS insisting on what is wright in Gods eyes not the overseers, we might have a chance, but unless they get the conviction and have the integrity to stand by it, we will continue to see the honest ones persecuted and coverups will continue |
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Post by Greg on Jan 28, 2013 22:12:01 GMT -5
The friends check around to see which workers come and stay in their fields for the year. Yes they do. Conversations about workers not limited to that, but that is included. Sad that you only presented that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 22:16:40 GMT -5
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The friends check around to see which workers come and stay in their fields for the year.
I guess I wasn't given those instructions to check around about workers when I professed. Or when I was baptized. Or when I had workers stay with us for a month at a time while living overseas. I did all these things in complete sincerity of heart, with full trust, but it turns out that I was an uninformed fool.
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Post by Greg on Jan 28, 2013 22:18:43 GMT -5
Yes they do. Conversations about workers not limited to that, but that is included. Sad that you only presented that. You remind me of a woman I knew that owned a restaurant. When owners of the building wanted her to do something she would reply, "What you mean? What you mean?" But if they were going to do something for her she would reply, "Okay....okay....okay...." |
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