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Post by Observer on Jan 15, 2013 20:20:20 GMT -5
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Post by ghostofdandedong on Jan 15, 2013 21:33:43 GMT -5
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Post by ghostofdandedong on Jan 15, 2013 23:35:56 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2013 21:18:51 GMT -5
Once again we see the problems caused because of the nebulous attitude of the 2x2 Church. An organisation must have an agreed formal structure, to operate correctly. If this is not there, divisions will exist among members. Us older ones remember the great upheaval in Victoria back in the 1950's, and it looks like it is headed that way again.
Workers should only have an Apolistic role ( preach ), and a Committee of Elders should look after the pastoral side of the Church ( fix problems). If they do this they will begin to operate as a proper Church, and will have a united membership. Maybe after they get hauled through the Royal Commission, they will be forced to adopt a proper structure. A decision made by one person, is not a balanced approach.
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Post by Fellow Aussie on Jan 16, 2013 22:29:13 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but I didn’t know there was a Victorian worker in South Australia. Most of them are from NSW
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Post by Observer on Jan 17, 2013 7:06:24 GMT -5
He lived in South Aus prior to going in the work so may be considered an SA worker. Back in Vic with his family now and a Vic worker arriving in a few weeks to replace him.
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Post by fred on Jan 17, 2013 17:56:41 GMT -5
He lived in South Aus prior to going in the work so may be considered an SA worker. Back in Vic with his family now and a Vic worker arriving in a few weeks to replace him. Who is in charge in SA these days? |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 17, 2013 18:03:52 GMT -5
Once again we see the problems caused because of the nebulous attitude of the 2x2 Church. An organisation must have an agreed formal structure, to operate correctly. If this is not there, divisions will exist among members. Us older ones remember the great upheaval in Victoria back in the 1950's, and it looks like it is headed that way again. Workers should only have an Apolistic role ( preach ), and a Committee of Elders should look after the pastoral side of the Church ( fix problems). If they do this they will begin to operate as a proper Church, and will have a united membership. Maybe after they get hauled through the Royal Commission, they will be forced to adopt a proper structure. A decision made by one person, is not a balanced approach. In one of his letters to one of his faithful followers, William Irvine made the statement that at the very beginning he did not think that the 2x2's would last long....it looks like it's lasted a bit too long because some of the powered workers have become independent of any other worker or saint...they've got the power of God or Satan one.....I think the 2x2 religion is out of bounds and no longer viable. And yes, I think those who like their homey Sun. a.m. mtgs. just go ahead and enjoy them and shut your doors to those workers who want to send reputable workers home.....the sooner the friends start doing such things and not admitting the criminal perpatrators into their homes AND no longer allow the top powered workers into their homes, the better off everyone will be! The top workers ARE NOT going to follow CSA or any other criminal guidelines, because they don't have the right to be excommunicating any CSA or other criminal workers because they know they don't have a leg to stand on as far as them being lily white either.....I hope the young workers get out of the work soon enough that they can have the strength and health to find their place to live in this evil world and be at least comfortably well off.....not get into this no marrying thing but fornication thing is ok!  |
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Post by fixit on Jan 18, 2013 2:42:28 GMT -5
The best way to protect the fellowship is to refer every child sexual abuse allegation to the police.
Would Alan Kitto have broken any laws by warning a victim to not go to the police?
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Post by Mandated reporters on Jan 18, 2013 2:51:21 GMT -5
Mandated reporters in South Australia:
Doctors; pharmacists; registered or enrolled nurses; dentists; psychologists; police officers; community corrections officers; social workers; teachers; family day care providers; employees/volunteers in a government department, agency or instrumentality, or a local government or non-government agency that provides health, welfare, education, sporting or recreational, child care or residential services wholly or partly for children; ministers of religion (with the exception of disclosures made in the confessional); employees or volunteers in a religious or spiritual organisations
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Post by Summer Rose on Jan 18, 2013 21:03:01 GMT -5
Hi
Can someone post on here the SA Workers List for 2013?
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Post by Kitten slippers on Jan 21, 2013 6:40:56 GMT -5
Mandated reporters in South Australia: Doctors; pharmacists; registered or enrolled nurses; dentists; psychologists; police officers; community corrections officers; social workers; teachers; family day care providers; employees/volunteers in a government department, agency or instrumentality, or a local government or non-government agency that provides health, welfare, education, sporting or recreational, child care or residential services wholly or partly for children; ministers of religion (with the exception of disclosures made in the confessional); employees or volunteers in a religious or spiritual organisations Think it depends which state whether workers have to report!!!!!! |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 21, 2013 12:13:07 GMT -5
The best way to protect the fellowship is to refer every child sexual abuse allegation to the police. Would Alan Kitto have broken any laws by warning a victim to not go to the police? Okay! We have an underling worker who has been told that there are criminal complaints regarding another worker....this underling goes to 2 overseers, the first one not doing anything but sending the underling with another worker to the 2nd overseer, knowing full well what is going to happen....the underling worker is sent home and his driver has to take him home...expelled out of the work. NOW why has this underling worker himself not gone to the authorities and/or encouraged the victim(s) to do so as well or that he would gladly escort them to the local authorities? This is perhaps a very vivid example of the overseers not planning to abide by the reccommended guidelines that friends have drawn up PLUS they are not going to tolerate any of their underling workers to cause trouble, so they kick them out of the work and possibly will kick them out of the fellowship IF said underling continues to bring said alleged things up before anyone esp. the police! It IS time for the police to start charging the overseers with failure to report and make it imperative they go through the legal system and pay the sentence so required of them...maybe by the time most of the overseers become ex-cons then the friends and underling workers will wake up to the abuses that has been laid upon their shoulders...reminds me of the scripture: Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers. Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. Sound familiar, friends? |
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Post by fixit on Jan 21, 2013 13:38:52 GMT -5
NOW why has this underling worker himself not gone to the authorities and/or encouraged the victim(s) to do so as well or that he would gladly escort them to the local authorities? 1. He won't want to burn his bridges. There is still the possibility of being accepted back into the work in the future. 2. He won't want his family punished e.g. removal of meetings from homes. |
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Post by udontknowme on Jan 25, 2013 2:30:27 GMT -5
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Post by sharonw on Jan 25, 2013 12:18:36 GMT -5
???What the hell is goin on with this mob? serioulsy if these workers are human beings then obvioulsy they might need sex sometime through out their life, no wonder there all turning into sickos. it called deprived! That s what rapist do when they cant find someone to partake in sex ...they rape.! How is everbody in this thing igonoring all this and how do they sleep at night....it so un christian. What is the world coming to and serioulsy these workers actually need to work..like a job work like the rest of us they have way too much time on their hands to think of sick things. the friendlys should be putting a stop to them staying in their homes if they had a job they would have their own homes instead of sleeping at peoples houses where there is kids so innocent and that dont know much about the evil world cause they dont have tvs! sorry but it is 2013 make some changes for christs sake...(litraly) you cant keep put your head in the sand about this people, i mean think about it.....all for what? ??  All heads in the sand will suffer complete collapse some day and like pretty soon......it usually starts with other birds who don't put their heads in the sand but they do like to eat carrion and then floods come and the sands shift with the floods and the poor head is filled with water and drowns, then the carrion is real and the vultures are thankful that their carrion prizes quit moving!  |
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Post by holdmyhand on Jan 25, 2013 18:53:03 GMT -5
...reminds me of the scripture: Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers. Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. Sound familiar, friends? that sounds way to familiar also these verses come to mind Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? Eze 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. Eze 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2013 6:58:39 GMT -5
The best way to protect the fellowship is to refer every child sexual abuse allegation to the police. Would Alan Kitto have broken any laws by warning a victim to not go to the police? Okay! We have an underling worker who has been told that there are criminal complaints regarding another worker....this underling goes to 2 overseers, the first one not doing anything but sending the underling with another worker to the 2nd overseer, knowing full well what is going to happen....the underling worker is sent home and his driver has to take him home...expelled out of the work. NOW why has this underling worker himself not gone to the authorities and/or encouraged the victim(s) to do so as well or that he would gladly escort them to the local authorities? This is perhaps a very vivid example of the overseers not planning to abide by the reccommended guidelines that friends have drawn up PLUS they are not going to tolerate any of their underling workers to cause trouble, so they kick them out of the work and possibly will kick them out of the fellowship IF said underling continues to bring said alleged things up before anyone esp. the police! It IS time for the police to start charging the overseers with failure to report and make it imperative they go through the legal system and pay the sentence so required of them...maybe by the time most of the overseers become ex-cons then the friends and underling workers will wake up to the abuses that has been laid upon their shoulders...reminds me of the scripture: Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers. Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. Sound familiar, friends? Your description of events seems quite detailed and, if true, is of a nature that would be sufficient to raise the attention of relevant authorities in SA and Vic. I've followed the links from this page to the members3broadhost site. The problem I have is this site has a number of threads that I know from personal experience to be gossip/slander, entire threads with posts from individuals that have no direct knowledge of events/people involved. I can't comment on the veracity of the threads I have no personal knowledge of the people/activities. Rightly or wrongly I gain the impression that many people from outside Victoria/Tasmania are providing an ongoing commentary on matters they have no direct information on, outside of net driven communication (to whatever degree anonymous). Is this information accurate? Where have you gathered it from? The reality is the police in Victoria/Tasmania have limited powers. The justice system in the same areas is even more limited and ineffectual. While the respective parliamentary inquiries both nationally and state (Vict.) may result in some law changes to improve this, it will be a slow process and unlikely to be as far reaching as most of us would like. It is likely the best impact they will have is in raising awareness and willingness to act in these areas amongst ordinary people and that same reality will remain - that change is most effectively driven from within rather than imposed from without. The real question is when are the people who have direct information on these matter going to stop using the internet as a vehicle of complaint and to raise these matters openly and directly with their elders and all workers. History of CSA is quite clear in demonstrating leaders will almost always act to protect their leadership. Blaming overseers is simply perpetuating the victim cycle. |
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Post by holdmyhand on Feb 1, 2013 8:07:30 GMT -5
Is this information accurate? Where have you gathered it from? The reality is the police in Victoria/Tasmania have limited powers. The justice system in the same areas is even more limited and ineffectual. While the respective parliamentary inquiries both nationally and state (Vict.) may result in some law changes to improve this, it will be a slow process and unlikely to be as far reaching as most of us would like. It is likely the best impact they will have is in raising awareness and willingness to act in these areas amongst ordinary people and that same reality will remain - that change is most effectively driven from within rather than imposed from without. The real question is when are the people who have direct information on these matter going to stop using the internet as a vehicle of complaint and to raise these matters openly and directly with their elders and all workers. History of CSA is quite clear in demonstrating leaders will almost always act to protect their leadership. Blaming overseers is simply perpetuating the victim cycle. passerby, don't you know complaints have been raised directly with elders and workers for decades, only to be swept under the carpet the victims threatened to keep silent and told to forgive while the perps continue their disgusting crime The Internet has become the means of informing and exposing the disgraceful practice of the morally bankrupt overseers and hierarchy, it is painfully obvious it will take public shaming before they will deal properly with pedophiles. |
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Post by sharonw on Feb 1, 2013 16:11:08 GMT -5
NOW why has this underling worker himself not gone to the authorities and/or encouraged the victim(s) to do so as well or that he would gladly escort them to the local authorities? 1. He won't want to burn his bridges. There is still the possibility of being accepted back into the work in the future. 2. He won't want his family punished e.g. removal of meetings from homes. Otherwords this is just a typical way things keep going down hill in regards to the workers handling such things as CSA and rape....the workers in power know that they've got the younger concientious workers over the proverbial barrel...no way out for the concientious worker without being plumb kicked out and his parents and siblings suffering for it. This sounds a lot like Mafia dealings, doesn't it? |
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Post by spiders on Feb 2, 2013 0:15:23 GMT -5
Is this information accurate? Where have you gathered it from? The reality is the police in Victoria/Tasmania have limited powers. The justice system in the same areas is even more limited and ineffectual. While the respective parliamentary inquiries both nationally and state (Vict.) may result in some law changes to improve this, it will be a slow process and unlikely to be as far reaching as most of us would like. It is likely the best impact they will have is in raising awareness and willingness to act in these areas amongst ordinary people and that same reality will remain - that change is most effectively driven from within rather than imposed from without. The real question is when are the people who have direct information on these matter going to stop using the internet as a vehicle of complaint and to raise these matters openly and directly with their elders and all workers. History of CSA is quite clear in demonstrating leaders will almost always act to protect their leadership. Blaming overseers is simply perpetuating the victim cycle. passerby, don't you know complaints have been raised directly with elders and workers for decades, only to be swept under the carpet the victims threatened to keep silent and told to forgive while the perps continue their disgusting crime The Internet has become the means of informing and exposing the disgraceful practice of the morally bankrupt overseers and hierarchy, it is painfully obvious it will take public shaming before they will deal properly with pedophiles. You are correct holdmyhand. The overseers will not listen to the the concerns of the friends (or workers in the current case) in relation to the way in which they are handling CSA. The current overseer in Vic has proved to be arrogant and not willing to accept any advice from concerned friends. He has not acknowledged publicly that their is a problem with some of his staff and does not take CSA seriously. Protecting the reputation of the ministry is put ahead of the protection of victims The only way in which this will change is by the law forcing them to have proper protection of victims and reporting perpetrators to police. The power to make changes lies with the victims of abuse to have the courage to come forward and report their abuse to the police. Sadly this happens rarely and consequently the abusers are free to go on with their disgusting acts |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2013 1:17:09 GMT -5
passerby, don't you know complaints have been raised directly with elders and workers for decades, only to be swept under the carpet the victims threatened to keep silent and told to forgive while the perps continue their disgusting crime The Internet has become the means of informing and exposing the disgraceful practice of the morally bankrupt overseers and hierarchy, it is painfully obvious it will take public shaming before they will deal properly with pedophiles. [/quote] In terms of facts I don't know much at all. I suspect you are exactly correct with what has happened in the past. I must say though, in the few cases where I do know specific details I often find many posts to the net to be inaccurate. There is a lot of pain and outrage around these issues and the internet serves as a place to vent. That can be healthy. The danger is that is all it becomes, that people/posters/victims never move beyond that anger and a feeling of impotence. Frankly I don't think there is a need for more to be exposed - there is enough damning evidence out there for the discerning reader. I do think there is a need for more thoughtful threads, less driven by the need to vent and more driven by accurate information. I'm not suggesting professing folk raise these issues quietly with their elder or workers. I'm suggesting they do so loudly and publicly. I'm suggesting the only way this will change is by professing people voting with their feet, by confronting these issues openly. Leaking information or posting anonymously will never change a thing, just give more fodder for impotent outrage. If steve schulz is aware of/raised issues of legality with the overseer then he should have gone to the police. If the issues were not of that nature then Sharonw's post is off mark. Does the source know specifically what was raised/said? |
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Post by fixit on Feb 14, 2013 14:12:24 GMT -5
There is a lot of pain and outrage around these issues and the internet serves as a place to vent. That can be healthy. The danger is that is all it becomes, that people/posters/victims never move beyond that anger and a feeling of impotence. Frankly I don't think there is a need for more to be exposed - there is enough damning evidence out there for the discerning reader. I do think there is a need for more thoughtful threads, less driven by the need to vent and more driven by accurate information. I'm not suggesting professing folk raise these issues quietly with their elder or workers. I'm suggesting they do so loudly and publicly. I'm suggesting the only way this will change is by professing people voting with their feet, by confronting these issues openly. Leaking information or posting anonymously will never change a thing, just give more fodder for impotent outrage. If steve schulz is aware of/raised issues of legality with the overseer then he should have gone to the police. If the issues were not of that nature then Sharonw's post is off mark. Does the source know specifically what was raised/said? People have been voting with their feet for decades. I don't see that as a solution, because every "seeing" person who leaves decreases the "seeing-ness" of the fellowship as a whole. Those who don't "see" are very quick to put the blame on those who have left. They were "not fitting in", they "lost their vision", they were "unwilling", they were "not of us, therefore they went out from us".....we all know the cliches that are used to describe those who have "lost out". I think you're right on with your following statement: I'm not suggesting professing folk raise these issues quietly with their elder or workers. I'm suggesting they do so loudly and publicly.What's needed is people in good standing who: Dare to be a Daniel,
Dare to stand alone!
Dare to have a purpose firm!
Dare to make it known.Graham Thompson is one who was willing to spend his political capital to confront the issues that are destroying the ministry and the fellowship and oppressing the vulnerable among us. When he hit a stone wall with the political leaders of the church he wasn't intimidated by their threats. Steve Shulz went to the politicians of the fellowship who quickly found a political solution to the problem - they silenced the messenger with a carrot and stick approach. By dismissing him from the work, yet holding out the possibility of being accepted back next year, they have him under their control. I think Steve's courage will have an affect though, helping friends and workers of conscience to see what it is that we're dealing with. John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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Post by kencoolidge on Feb 18, 2013 6:58:41 GMT -5
I believe that HMH quoted the apporiate verse discribing the overseers who operate in darkness. Atleast to my way of thinking it describes them to a tea
Eze 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
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