Christians Floundering

[kencoolidge]

Proud people focus on the failures of others and can readily point out those faults. Broken people are more conscious of their own spiritual need than of anyone else’s. Nancy Leigh DeMoss

ken

[guitar]

You are wrong Ken..

[faune]

Ken ~ I definitely agree and the Matthew 5, the chapter on the Beatitudes, backs up that statement by Nancy Leigh DeMoss, a well known Christian talk show host who I have enjoyed in the past. She actually wrote a book on the subject of Brokenness as being the genuine key to repentance and spiritual renewal and the reality of being born again of the Spirit.

Brokenness: The Heart God Revives is the first in this trilogy, and contains six chapters, as well as a discussion guide in the back, with about three to six questions per chapter. Nancy writes about an irrefutable spiritual principle in this book: before every great movement of God there is always a time of deep repentance.

You have to actually get to that place of seeing yourself as a sinner and in need of a Saviour to come to that place of a personal relationship with Christ ~ born again of the Spirit ~ and transformed from the inside out, as a result of Christ as becoming Lord of your life.

In contrast, the proud and haughty in spirit have their own reward in this life, but not God's blessing for their behavior or attitude, according to scripture references below:

Proud people focus on the failures of others and can readily point out those faults. Broken people are more conscious of their own spiritual need than of anyone else’s. Nancy Leigh DeMoss

Please see this Wiki article for the blessings of God upon the broken or poor in spirit. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes

Jesus names a group of people normally thought to be unfortunate and pronounces them blessed.[4]

The eight beatitudes in Matthew 5:3–12 during the Sermon on the Mount are stated as Blessed/Happy/Fortunate are:[2][3]
the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:3)
those who mourn: for they will be comforted. (5:4)
the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (5:5)
they who hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they will be satisfied. (5:6)
the merciful: for they will be shown mercy. (5:7)
the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (5:8)
the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God. (5:9)
those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:10)

In Matthew, these are followed by what is often viewed as a commentary ("when men shall revile you"), which R. T. France considers based on Isaiah 51:7.[6]

The beatitudes present only in Matthew are the meek, the merciful, the pure of heart, and the peacemakers.[5] The other four have similar entries in Luke, but are followed almost immediately by "four woes".

The four beatitudes in Luke 6:20–22 during the Sermon on the Plain are stated as Blessed are you:[2][3]
the poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
that hunger now: for ye shall be filled.
that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

The four woes that follow these in Luke 6:24–26 are as stated as Woe unto you:[2]
that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
that are full now! for ye shall hunger.
that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
when all men shall speak well of you! for in the same manner did their fathers to the false prophets.

These woes are distinct from the Seven Woes of the Pharisees that appear later in Luke 11:37–54.

Woes on the Pharisees and the Experts in the Law
37 When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table.(A) 38 But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal.(B)

39 Then the Lord(C) said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.(D) 40 You foolish people!(E) Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor,(F) and everything will be clean for you.(G)

42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth(H) of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God.(I) You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.(J)

43 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces.(K)

44 “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves,(L) which people walk over without knowing it.”

45 One of the experts in the law(M) answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.”

46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.(N)

47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.(O) 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom(P) said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’(Q) 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel(R) to the blood of Zechariah,(S) who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.(T)

52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”(U)

53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.(V)

Another famous chapter that deals entirely with the woes to the Pharisees is Matthew 23 and goes into even more detail than the ones above from Luke 11:37-54. These Pharisees were the religious leaders of Jesus' day who interpreted and applied the law to the Jewish congregation of that day, and heaped heavy burdens on people to gain acceptance in God's eyes. However, Jesus produced more woes upon this religious group for their hypocrisy than any of the vilest sinners who repented and changed their course in life.

[Happy Feet]

I only half agree with this statement. People who are depressed for example do often put themselves down. However, people who are also lacking in certain areas look for that fault in others to justify their own behaviour. We often see in others what we lack ourselves but it does not mean that we should not challenge wrong behavior.

So it goes both ways. Those who are secure in themselves do not have to put others down. They are more likely to see others strengths and encourage them in others.

[emy]

Do we all agree on a definition for "proud people" and "broken people" - especially broken people?

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2012 16:36:08 GMT -5 emy said:

Do we all agree on a definition for "proud people" and "broken people" - especially broken people?

I agree-- 'broken' is a trigger for some. I think of 'broken' in the sense of Paul's "I die daily so that Christ can live through me" rather than "I think I'm worthless and need to be subservient to those I see as authorities.'

[guitar]

ive met lots of proud people that have acomplished great things in life. They seem to more focus on that they. Ive also met lots of proud people that have a heart for others.

[faune]

Nov 30, 2012 16:12:50 GMT -5 Happy Feet said:

I only half agree with this statement. People who are depressed for example do often put themselves down. However, people who are also lacking in certain areas look for that fault in others to justify their own behaviour. We often see in others what we lack ourselves but it does not mean that we should not challenge wrong behavior.

So it goes both ways. Those who are secure in themselves do not have to put others down. They are more likely to see others strengths and encourage them in others.

Happy Feet ~ I agree with both statements you made above; however, I feel when we are discussing brokenness of spirit, we are dealing with people recognizing their sinfulness and need for change in their lives? When people come to this place in life, especially acknowledging their powerlessness over their own condition and need for God-given help to change, they seem more open to seeking God for their answers and accepting His remedy for their soul's deep need, IMHO?

However, being indoctrinated by the 2x2's, we heard little about the need of repentance and spiritual renewal and a lot about obedience to the leadership in all areas and "fitting in" to the group by outward conformity. Since there's little emphasis on the need for inward change of heart and behavior, but plenty on outward dress and feigned humility, I feel the Pharisee's pattern of spirituality is followed in its legalistic requirements for salvation, which generally fosters spiritual pride? Also, the need of a mediator between you and Christ, which involved the approval of the Pharisees or leaders of that day to be considered worthy
~ you basically become a man-pleaser instead of a God pleaser to gain acceptance by the group and leadershi, IMO?

[guitar]

Being indoctrinated by the 2x2's

What a cult. are you pointing out the failures of the 2x2's?

[faune]

Nov 30, 2012 17:14:57 GMT -5 guitar said:

Being indoctrinated by the 2x2's

What a cult. are you pointing out the failures of the 2x2's?

Guitar ~ Perhaps you should look up the criteria of a cult and see if the shoe fits for yourself? I feel a lot of people who left the group felt this was the case and that helped finalize their decision? Personally, I left out of burn-out and came to that decision a few years later after researching the criteria that constitutes the same. However, there are degrees to cultish teachings and to truly find out where you fall, you have to make an honest assessment yourself. However, one cardinal sign is the belief that you are the one and only way of salvation and all others are false and damned unless they join your group and leaving puts you among the damned? Sound familiar?

If you feel inclined to check this out further, here's a site that might help answer your own questions?
www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/uploads/CultCharacteristics.htm

[guitar]

no it doesn't sound familiar.. I must be part of a different Church then the one you were a part of. I have heard people workers say. Who can judge who goes to heaven.

[faune]

Nov 30, 2012 16:40:07 GMT -5 hberry said:

Nov 30, 2012 16:36:08 GMT -5 emy said:

Do we all agree on a definition for "proud people" and "broken people" - especially broken people?

I agree-- 'broken' is a trigger for some. I think of 'broken' in the sense of Paul's "I die daily so that Christ can live through me" rather than "I think I'm worthless and need to be subservient to those I see as authorities.'

HBerry ~ I think you got the correct picture of what true brokenness is all about. It's all about giving Christ the Lordship over our lives and allowing His Holy Spirit to change us from the inside out ~ nothing about become subservient to man or some presumed religious authority. Where there is true Christianity, the leadership also demonstrate servanthood and give God the glory and praise. Also, you do not go through them to obtain salvation, but only through Jesus Christ ~ "living truth and way and provider of all our needs.

John 14:6

New International Version (NIV)


6 Jesus answered, “I am(A) the way(B) and the truth(C) and the life.(D) No one comes to the Father except through me.(E)

[guitar]

The leader is regarded as the supreme authority

Jesus is the leader.

They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives

I control my possesions. etc.. Maybe I should give more.

The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves.

Most Gospel meetings are about Jesus.

The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members.

There is a standard-(What the bible teaches.)

The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising.

Others have made the point that recruiting is way down. Fund raising is hardly mentioned.Alms are private.

1. ENVIRONMENT CONTROL.

The bible teaches we should be careful what we let into our home and hearts.

2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION.

I don't see much of this but I don't know what it means.

3. DEMAND FOR PURITY.

This might be what the emblems are about. Jesus presents us blameless before God with exceeding joy.

4. CULT OF CONFESSION

I don't do this.

5. SACRED SCIENCE.

I've heard workes express they don't know the answers to my ?'s

6. LOADED LANGUAGE

This may happen. things like "proffessing"

7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON

.
I don't think so.

8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE.

Did not Jesus teach that without his blood we cannot be saved?

There you go Faune.

[Mary]

Your answers are what should take place in the fellowship guitar, but sadly it is not what happens in the F&Ws.

The workers words are paramount, preach themselves. The workers have the final authority over the interpretation of the Bible. etc etc. The workers fit all but 2 of the criteria.

MYSTICAL MANIPULATION is what the workers use. Forget the mystical because to those outside it is plain manipulation and for many control.

[guitar]

Explain mystical manipulation to me.

[Deleted]

Proud people focus on the failures of others and can readily point out those faults. Broken people are more conscious of their own spiritual need than of anyone else’s. Nancy Leigh DeMoss

ken

Whole people will reach out and help people with their needs.

[guitar]

I agree u need some reserves to help others

[sharonw]

Nov 30, 2012 16:56:09 GMT -5 faune said:

Happy Feet ~ I agree with both statements you made above; however, I feel when we are discussing brokenness of spirit, we are dealing with people recognizing their sinfulness and need for change in their lives? When people come to this place in life, especially acknowledging their powerlessness over their own condition and need for God-given help to change, they seem more open to seeking God for their answers and accepting His remedy for their soul's deep need, IMHO?

However, being indoctrinated by the 2x2's, we heard little about the need of repentance and spiritual renewal and a lot about obedience to the leadership in all areas and "fitting in" to the group by outward conformity. Since there's little emphasis on the need for inward change of heart and behavior, but plenty on outward dress and feigned humility, I feel the Pharisee's pattern of spirituality is followed in its legalistic requirements for salvation, which generally fosters spiritual pride? Also, the need of a mediator between you and Christ, which involved the approval of the Pharisees or leaders of that day to be considered worthy
~ you basically become a man-pleaser instead of a God pleaser to gain acceptance by the group and leadershi, IMO?

I suppose I can credit my Gram for teaching us to be humble, repent daily, and keep our hearts from evil....I had never paid that much attention to what workers demanded until I exited the fellowship....there was a considerable added burden that I was aware of in regards to our actions as well as our dress and our hair....most the time in the convs. and special mtgs. around here it was a rare thing to hear from the platform about those human burdens that we have to have in order "to fit in".....althought it may well be the workers who DID preach such are the ones that I had to fight to stay awake and listen which I think I likely heard but did not retain the pushing of the burdens that some were not willing to help us bear..