gells
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Posts: 744
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Post by gells on Sept 11, 2012 21:56:43 GMT -5
A question I had for you all.. Someone told me over the weekend that unborn babies do not have souls. What is the general thought of this. I know that Catholics do not believe this.. I grew up in "the truth" and I have no idea what their stance is on this.. anyone else know?
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Post by sharonw on Sept 11, 2012 21:59:35 GMT -5
A question I had for you all.. Someone told me over the weekend that unborn babies do not have souls. What is the general thought of this. I know that Catholics do not believe this.. I grew up in "the truth" and I have no idea what their stance is on this.. anyone else know? According to the OT scripture, when God breathes the breath of life to a person (which is usually on birth) that person becomes a "living soul".....course we have to qualify "living" perhaps?
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gells
Senior Member
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Post by gells on Sept 11, 2012 22:01:45 GMT -5
A question I had for you all.. Someone told me over the weekend that unborn babies do not have souls. What is the general thought of this. I know that Catholics do not believe this.. I grew up in "the truth" and I have no idea what their stance is on this.. anyone else know? According to the OT scripture, when God breathes the breath of life to a person (which is usually on birth) that person becomes a "living soul".....course we have to qualify "living" perhaps? So babies that are stillborn? What happens to them??
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Post by Happy Feet on Sept 11, 2012 22:03:19 GMT -5
Did Adam and Eve have a soul before God breathed life into them and they became a living soul?
To me this might say the soul comes in when we take the first breath?
Now just to complicate things more, I believe the soul and spirit are different things. The soul is our emotions, intellect etc, while the spirit is what goes back to God when we die.
Now i am more confused than ever. But a baby cannot sin while in the womb so does he/s he have a soul then? Maybe he/she takes on the sins of his/her parents while still in the womb.
edit: I noticed Sharon was also writing about breath=soul at the same time I was.
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Post by lazarus66 on Sept 11, 2012 22:07:11 GMT -5
Yep, one on the bottom of each foot...............
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gells
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Posts: 744
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Post by gells on Sept 11, 2012 22:08:04 GMT -5
those would be soles...
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Post by sharonw on Sept 11, 2012 22:11:59 GMT -5
According to the OT scripture, when God breathes the breath of life to a person (which is usually on birth) that person becomes a "living soul".....course we have to qualify "living" perhaps? So babies that are stillborn? What happens to them?? IMO, I think that inutero fetus and stillborns are in the same class and I have NO idea if God considers them a soul...I do know unless the breath of life is given and received that they would NOT be considered a "living soul"....again the operative is "living" As HF was speaking to the difference of soul and spirit, soul is simply that which gives life to the human body and spirit is about the emotional/spiritual self.....the spirit goes back to God who gave it, so this makes for confusion we know God gives the breath and He keeps the spirit after the body's death....so could they be the same thing? I think as far as the spiritual self is concerned that the soul and spirit's relationship is mighty important....kind of like the brain and heart are important unto life.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 11, 2012 22:40:33 GMT -5
A question I had for you all.. Someone told me over the weekend that unborn babies do not have souls. What is the general thought of this. I know that Catholics do not believe this.. I grew up in "the truth" and I have no idea what their stance is on this.. anyone else know? Ensoulment occurs at conception.
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Post by Happy Feet on Sept 11, 2012 22:43:17 GMT -5
My understanding is sightly different from your Sharon.
You wrote: soul is simply that which gives life to the human body and spirit is about the emotional/spiritual self.....
I believe the Soul is the emotions not the spirit. The unseen part of us such as, intellect, emotions etc, (although we see the outworking of it)is the soul. The spirit has no part of our humanness, it came from God and goes back to God. Animals have a soul but I don't think they have a spirit - that comes from God and goes back to him.
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Post by lazarus66 on Sept 11, 2012 23:33:29 GMT -5
Gells, my bad. Sorry for making light of what I think is more of a serious question than when I posted.........Sorry for that.......
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Post by kencoolidge on Sept 12, 2012 5:38:05 GMT -5
If you have read and believed the book "Heaven is for real" then you have an answer ken
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gells
Senior Member
Posts: 744
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Post by gells on Sept 12, 2012 7:55:09 GMT -5
StAnne, Can u give me some more information? It would be very helpful to me right now. :/ Ken, what answer does that book give? What is it about?
Never mind, Ken, I looked it up. Perhaps I will read it.
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Post by rational on Sept 12, 2012 8:30:30 GMT -5
Now i am more confused than ever. But a baby cannot sin while in the womb so does he/s he have a soul then? Maybe he/she takes on the sins of his/her parents while still in the womb. The bible does say that the sins of the father should not be on the children, that each is responsible for their own sins. This does fly in the face of the concept of original sin, the sin that comes, I guess, with the first breath.
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Post by rational on Sept 12, 2012 8:31:58 GMT -5
A question I had for you all.. Someone told me over the weekend that unborn babies do not have souls. What is the general thought of this. I know that Catholics do not believe this.. I grew up in "the truth" and I have no idea what their stance is on this.. anyone else know? Ensoulment occurs at conception. How does this work in the case of multiple identical births, when there is a single conception?
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Post by rational on Sept 12, 2012 8:35:45 GMT -5
IMO, I think that inutero fetus and stillborns are in the same class and I have NO idea if God considers them a soul...I do know unless the breath of life is given and received that they would NOT be considered a "living soul"....again the operative is "living" Both the sperm and the ova are alive. There is not a question of living. The question is when does the new organism become an individual.
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Post by sharonw on Sept 12, 2012 8:36:40 GMT -5
My understanding is sightly different from your Sharon. You wrote: soul is simply that which gives life to the human body and spirit is about the emotional/spiritual self..... I believe the Soul is the emotions not the spirit. The unseen part of us such as, intellect, emotions etc, (although we see the outworking of it)is the soul. The spirit has no part of our humanness, it came from God and goes back to God. Animals have a soul but I don't think they have a spirit - that comes from God and goes back to him. I think spirit is always in a person...we know that many people have a bad spirit and many people have a good spirit.....I take it when a person is born again of God, that the spirit they were born with is what has been put to death and they take on the Holy Spirit and thus it is the Holy Spirit that gives them direction including that of emotional, physical and psyche self. The sould is what is given at birth and is the life's particular that enables even the blood which is sacrificial, to carry that breath of life to all the person's cells. I do think as the bible has stated that "when God breathes the breath of life into a person/animal they become "living souls"....there is a verse in the OT that speaks of the breath in animals makes them "living souls"....the souls has to do with the LIVING creature. Spirit has to do with the mind and heart and what those thing put forth whether it is bad spirit or a good spirit.
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Post by emy on Sept 12, 2012 11:11:33 GMT -5
I did a search for 'soul' in Bible Gateway. There were 493 references in the KJV. Only 55 were in the NT. But in reading several of the NT ones, as well as skimming the OT ones, it seems to me as if the soul is what is saved, preserved and kept by God. Everyone has one.
All people also have a human spirit. Those who are born again receive the Holy Spirit.
Just how I see it now.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 12, 2012 13:38:48 GMT -5
Ensoulment occurs at conception. How does this work in the case of multiple identical births, when there is a single conception? It's your question and concern - not mine - I trust that they will all have a soul at the appropriate moment in time.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 12, 2012 13:40:49 GMT -5
StAnne, Can u give me some more information? It would be very helpful to me right now. :/ Ken, what answer does that book give? What is it about? Never mind, Ken, I looked it up. Perhaps I will read it. I'm sorry, I cannot - wish I could.
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Post by rational on Sept 12, 2012 14:33:02 GMT -5
How does this work in the case of multiple identical births, when there is a single conception? It's your question and concern - not mine - I trust that they will all have a soul at the appropriate moment in time. You stated that the soul arrives at the moment of conception. This would leave some of the individuals without a soul since they do not yet exist at the moment of conception. I was wondering how this is addressed.
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Post by sharonw on Sept 12, 2012 16:08:44 GMT -5
I did a search for 'soul' in Bible Gateway. There were 493 references in the KJV. Only 55 were in the NT. But in reading several of the NT ones, as well as skimming the OT ones, it seems to me as if the soul is what is saved, preserved and kept by God. Everyone has one. All people also have a human spirit. Those who are born again receive the Holy Spirit. Just how I see it now. Thanks, Emy, you said it better then I....I think that the soul is what will be rejoined to the new body that God will give for the person at the time of resurrection. I'm not certain, as Paul said, whether our new bodies will be like our old ones were but without flaw or pain and suffering.....but a body I do expect as Jesus' has His natural body in heaven or at least we know He ascended bodily into heaven. And spirit is what is changed when a person gets a new way of believing, doing as far as God's Will etc. are concerned and yes, the Holy Spirit is to take over the spirit part of us, so that it would be like the Father AND the Son living in us....just like Jesus mentioned, eh?
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Post by sharonw on Sept 12, 2012 16:12:20 GMT -5
It's your question and concern - not mine - I trust that they will all have a soul at the appropriate moment in time. You stated that the soul arrives at the moment of conception. This would leave some of the individuals without a soul since they do not yet exist at the moment of conception. I was wondering how this is addressed. Rat, I'm sure you're aware of what the differences are between a newly conceived body or even one that is into several months of gestation.....those persons of such do have almost everything that ones outside the uterus have EXCEPT for one thing and that is the breath of life...and according to the bible, when God gives that breath of life is when that body becomes a "living soul".
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gells
Senior Member
Posts: 744
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Post by gells on Sept 12, 2012 16:36:26 GMT -5
Perhaps "the breath of life" isn't referring to us physically breathing. What happens to babies that never get a chance to breathe?
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Post by StAnne on Sept 12, 2012 17:22:49 GMT -5
Perhaps "the breath of life" isn't referring to us physically breathing. What happens to babies that never get a chance to breathe? That's right. It refers to the God-given spark of life - becoming a living organism.
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Post by What Hat on Sept 12, 2012 17:29:09 GMT -5
It's your question and concern - not mine - I trust that they will all have a soul at the appropriate moment in time. You stated that the soul arrives at the moment of conception. This would leave some of the individuals without a soul since they do not yet exist at the moment of conception. I was wondering how this is addressed. A soul is queued up for the newborn several parsecs ahead in space-time. The bonding of body and soul occurs over a period of time from conception through childhood, and the soul separates from the body again at death.
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Post by Happy Feet on Sept 12, 2012 17:34:47 GMT -5
Now i am more confused than ever. But a baby cannot sin while in the womb so does he/s he have a soul then? Maybe he/she takes on the sins of his/her parents while still in the womb. The bible does say that the sins of the father should not be on the children, that each is responsible for their own sins. This does fly in the face of the concept of original sin, the sin that comes, I guess, with the first breath. If we are both thinking of the same scripture then the Bible says the opposite to what you are saying. Going from memory it says that the sins of the fathers visit the children to the 3rd and 4th generation.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Sept 12, 2012 17:39:14 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Sept 12, 2012 23:32:44 GMT -5
Perhaps "the breath of life" isn't referring to us physically breathing. What happens to babies that never get a chance to breathe? That's right. It refers to the God-given spark of life - becoming a living organism. Since two gamete cells are living prior to fertilization and the resulting zygote continues to be alive when does this 'spark of life' come into play? If the egg and/or the sperm is not living there is no fertilization and no new individual.
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