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Post by breakingfree on Jun 21, 2012 1:08:29 GMT -5
I think it's interesting about the color red. I never knew it was wrong to wear red. I wore it quite a bit because I liked it. Guess that was just one more thing I did wrong. Guess it didn't matter to the workers anymore because it seemed like I was too far gone for them to worry about wearing red. It could have been a regional thing or just a (another) wacky worker. I was never told not to wear my red dress, or ever heard again anything negative about wearing red among the 2x2's.
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Post by ts on Jun 21, 2012 1:38:41 GMT -5
I think it's interesting about the color red. I never knew it was wrong to wear red. I wore it quite a bit because I liked it. Guess that was just one more thing I did wrong. Guess it didn't matter to the workers anymore because it seemed like I was too far gone for them to worry about wearing red. It could have been a regional thing or just a (another) wacky worker. I was never told not to wear my red dress, or ever heard again anything negative about wearing red among the 2x2's. William Lewis said that he made it a point to wear a tie that had red in it. That was a radical thing to do in his day. He had the political clout to get by with it, though. He was a respected overseer and could push the boundaries on some ridiculous issues. He was said to have the "urim and thummim". It really does take a lot of wisdom to know that you can wear a bit of red in your tie and not be rebellious. You can't help but admire the guy. In "the world" all the false preachers have not figured that out and likely still reprimand folks for wearing red. I remember once an Amish man was coming to our meetings. he was telling us a story about an argument that was happening among the elders of the church over a dress code. Some of the men wanted to wear a hat with an inch and a quarter hat band rather than a one inch hat band. He said to them, "There are souls perishing and we are arguing about the width of a hat band!!!" We had hopes that he was seeing through the falseness of his faith. Turns out that the friends and workers are just as nitpicky and petty as the Amish. Just as exclusive. Just as self righteous and just as sincere. Just as human. Just as in need of the true gospel as we thought that Amish man was.
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Post by fred on Jun 21, 2012 3:45:30 GMT -5
I think it's interesting about the color red. I never knew it was wrong to wear red. I wore it quite a bit because I liked it. Guess that was just one more thing I did wrong. Guess it didn't matter to the workers anymore because it seemed like I was too far gone for them to worry about wearing red. It could have been a regional thing or just a (another) wacky worker. I was never told not to wear my red dress, or ever heard again anything negative about wearing red among the 2x2's. I believe that at some stage it must have been a general societal thing. I remember in the 60's that the girl's advisor at a certain Teacher's College would lecture the girls each year about what to wear to uphold the standard of their professional position. Red dresses were a no-no which even in those years led to great hilarity among the girls.
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Post by cornsilk on Jun 21, 2012 8:08:56 GMT -5
One of the great workers within the 2x2 system was a man by the name of William Lewis. He has passed on, but he was a man that I had a great deal of respect for. He once told me not to fear any worker, "they put their pants on one leg at a time just like you." He was also one of the workers most instrumental in breaking the color barrier. Yes, I mean, wearing the color red. My wife says that she remembers the buzz that William caused by showing up to a convention wearing a red tie or a crimson cardigan sweater (he often times wore both.) That red really set the tongues to wagging amongst the friends at that convention. However, William's stance made a difference. If a great preacher like William could wear red, then it must be OK- so the friends quickly began wearing red. (We really are sheep, or is it lemmings?)
As recently as 1988, other workers, and old friends would ask William why he decided to wear red. I was at a lunch gathering once with William and some of his close friends. One of the older ladies asked, "Mr. William, why did you begin to wear red?" He didn't answer immediately. I thought that perhaps he was going to dodge the question. But shortly, a wry smile formed on his face and he leaned forward conspiratorially and said softly, "Well, I always tell people I think that it is because I have a little to much nig**** in me." And then he laughed, and laughed. We all did. (One of the younger sister workers chastised him for using the N word, but I didn't think too much about it. He grew up dirt poor during the Great Depression in Mississippi and that had been a very common word for whites to use. It didn't carry the heavy stigma that it does today, but she was right to warn him and he took it good naturedly.)
If the color red was still forbidden by the workers, I find it interesting that in our topics on modesty and jewelry that some professing people that post here would be on the opposite side against Mr. William. I can hear them now- "A person that wants to wear red is just trying to draw attention to themselves" they would write, just as they write about any that might choose to wear a necklace or bracelet. But, wisdom is justified of her children.
Thank goodness for workers like Mr. William Lewis that had the courage to call nonsense- "nonsense" and gave it the consideration that it deserved, which is to say, in my opinion- none.
The last testimony that I remember William giving was about "the deep things of the Bible. The things that we would spend eternity learning about and getting to the bottom of." Did he speak from Ezekiel? Isaiah? Jeremiah? Revelation? No. He said that the deep things in the bible were Jesus's words in Matthew 5,6 and 7. I remember being disappointed at the time. I wanted to hear Mr. William speak from Revelation or Isaiah. However, as many, many calendar pages have since been turned, I realize, Mr. William was right. Knowledge puffs us up. Prophecy is fulfilled and nullified. But learning to hunger and thirst after righteousness, learning to love my enemies, learning to be meek, learning to be poor in spirit, etc. those really are the eternal and deep secrets of the Bible- in conclusion- we are learning of Christ and His power- and He is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and last, yea, the All in All.
What an awesome post! William was a wonderful preacher. I remember listening to him speaking of God our father and can still hear him talking about "pappa" Two instances have come to mind as I have read your post: Once, at a Minnesota convention we heard a brother worker speaking about wood, hay, and stubble, or those things which are not, or never will be a part of salvation. I think everyone on this board would agree that dress color, stocking color, radios or television can be included in the list of wood hay and stubble. Sitting in the front row listening, my husband leaned over and whispered to me, "rebel!" I chuckled as I looked up and saw the worker with a red Bible in his hand. ;D I am sure he is now gone, as he was old then, but I would love to know who he was! And .... I have opportunity to spend time with some amazing retired workers. I love walking into meeting to see a 90 plus year old worker wearing her favorite color on Sunday mornings! Yes, it's red! I, personally don't hide anything from anyone. I wear the same clothing around the workers as I do around my family. My television is in the living room. I don't feel condemned. I treat the workers like family. They have told me that they like being in my home because they can relax. Do you suppose that we, trying our best, often determine how a worker needs to behave when around us? I don't know. I know better than to worship a man. My eyes are on Jesus, as He is the author and finisher of my faith.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 21, 2012 9:28:25 GMT -5
I, personally don't hide anything from anyone. I wear the same clothing around the workers as I do around my family. My television is in the living room. I don't feel condemned. I treat the workers like family. They have told me that they like being in my home because they can relax. Do you suppose that we, trying our best, often determine how a worker needs to behave when around us? I don't know. I know better than to worship a man. My eyes are on Jesus, as He is the author and finisher of my faith. I appreciate your post and agree. We (my family) also do not hide anything from the workers. We are who we are. We can't hide from God, so why hide from the workers those things in our lives that we feel are acceptable to God? So, I agree with you, that oftentimes, it is us, the friends, that encourage the hypocritical behavior because we fear the workers. And it isn't a Godly fear- it is human fear- the fear of being rejected, condemned, gossiped about, disapproved of, judged. I speak for myself in that list. It has taken me a lifetime, and some misguided overseers to finally confront that fear and recognize the truth- I was seeking to please man, and not God. I then had to confront the other so-called truths that I had believed because of will worship: * that this fellowship is the only right way. I don't believe that any longer for a second. And that has been an extremely liberating shackle to have loosed. Now I can have fellowship with the whole body, those living by the Spirit in other denominations/fellowships. I choose to be a 2x2 because I love the friends and workers, and more than that, I feel the Spirit in the meetings and appreciate MOST of what the workers and saints have to bring as bread. * that the workers are apostles. I no longer believe that the workers are the same as the apostles. I believe that they are preachers and evangelists and pastors. Not apostles. And I no longer believe that they have any authority over my life. None. My service is unto God, and Jesus did away with the middle man (the priest) and He is my advocate sitting on the right hand of God. I believe that the Living Witness Doctrine is a devilish doctrine that needs to began to be preached against by the workers so that the friends and workers can have a healthier relationship not born of fear and intimidation.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 21, 2012 9:32:34 GMT -5
Did he say "nullified"? I thought that was your interpretation. I reread my post, I did use the word nullify, which, as you point out is a poor choice of words and I agree, words matter. I should have let the statement stand as "prophecy will be fulfilled." Thanks for pointing that out.
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Post by quizzer on Jun 21, 2012 9:56:52 GMT -5
I think it's interesting about the color red. I never knew it was wrong to wear red. I wore it quite a bit because I liked it. Guess that was just one more thing I did wrong. Guess it didn't matter to the workers anymore because it seemed like I was too far gone for them to worry about wearing red. I'm with snow. I grew up wearing red, and not having a problem with it. However, in visiting friends from different parts, wearing red was a real problem (also white shoes for some strange reason). Funny thing is that hardback versions of different translations of the Bible have red covers. I'm guessing that some of the aversion to red has been overcome in Christian circles.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 21, 2012 10:03:54 GMT -5
Sac wrote:
Did anyone ever hear the F&W view to beware of the red letters passages the some Bibles? Something to the effect they couldnt be trusted? Were mens opinion as to being words of Jesus?
I never had a red letter Bible. Now looking back, I think it would have been quite helpful to me when I had just professed (age 13) and was just starting to study my Bible.
I also like the Bibles that show when the OT is being quoted. My NAS Hebrew Greek Study Bible uses all capital letters when it quotes a verse from the Old Testament. (EX: Rom 10:15)
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Post by ronhall on Jun 21, 2012 10:28:48 GMT -5
I know the workers didn't tell me I sould go to the bathroom and I messed my pants waiting for their answer. Shame on them. Of course this answer is meant to be facetious in a hilarious way and I appreciate that. One must realize that every human develops a 'style' of communication that appears to serve them best -- even workers. Some are 'up-front' to the point of being 'in your face' at times. Others wait to see how things turn out and have their 'say-so' after the fact, when things ended up not so good. To expect every workers' approach to resonate fully with your own is obviously asking too much and should not be expected and certainly not demanded. This is what I believe the verse means that we should have our conversation seasoned with salt -- but if the salt has lost his savor, wherein shall it be salted? Yes -- we may do our best to communicate effectively, but sometimes no matter what, we find ourselves opening our mouths to change feet. DAMHIK (don't ask me how I know) ! :>)
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Post by inpeaceabiding on Jun 21, 2012 12:09:33 GMT -5
I appreciate your post and agree. We (my family) also do not hide anything from the workers. We are who we are. We can't hide from God, so why hide from the workers those things in our lives that we feel are acceptable to God? So, I agree with you, that oftentimes, it is us, the friends, that encourage the hypocritical behavior because we fear the workers. And it isn't a Godly fear- it is human fear- the fear of being rejected, condemned, gossiped about, disapproved of, judged. I speak for myself in that list. It has taken me a lifetime, and some misguided overseers to finally confront that fear and recognize the truth- I was seeking to please man, and not God. I then had to confront the other so-called truths that I had believed because of will worship: * that this fellowship is the only right way. I don't believe that any longer for a second. And that has been an extremely liberating shackle to have loosed. Now I can have fellowship with the whole body, those living by the Spirit in other denominations/fellowships. I choose to be a 2x2 because I love the friends and workers, and more than that, I feel the Spirit in the meetings and appreciate MOST of what the workers and saints have to bring as bread. I assume you include this in the things you don't hide from the workers. But, in not hiding it, have you ever had a situation where you actually discussed it with the workers or other friends?
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Post by inpeaceabiding on Jun 21, 2012 12:12:58 GMT -5
Sac wrote: Did anyone ever hear the F&W view to beware of the red letters passages the some Bibles? Something to the effect they couldnt be trusted? Were mens opinion as to being words of Jesus? I never heard this...it would be weird, as all the "red letter Bibles" I've ever seen have the words of Jesus in red. It has always seemed to me that it is hard to not find one with red letters. I did find the red lettering helpful when I was starting to study the Bible...lately, I like not having the words in red. That is a useful distinction. One of my Bibles separates the OT quote into verse format, but I'm not sure if it does that for all OT quotes, or just the ones from the more poetic books, like Isaiah and Psalms.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 21, 2012 12:39:31 GMT -5
For years and perhaps they still do, the workers ordered Bibles for the Friends from R. L. Allan & Sons. They often ordered this one: KJV Brevier (Black-face) Refs version And guess what? This is also the same version that I have... I've had two of these. www.bibles-direct.co.uk/products/?c=57I see now that they have a "ruby text" version available...
IPA: Some general background questions for you... Were you B&R? If so, what generation are you? Did both your parents profess? Do you live in North America? Thanx, Cherie
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Post by inpeaceabiding on Jun 21, 2012 13:44:07 GMT -5
Cherie, Generally, the answers to your questions are "yes".
I haven't heard of the workers ordering Bibles. I know a family that buys Bibles (I don't know where from) and sells them along with hymn books at convention, which is where my family has typically acquired both.
Those are some expensive Bibles!
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 21, 2012 21:09:35 GMT -5
The discussion about why wearing the color red was ever a taboo reminds me of this:
Why are Fire Trucks Red?
They have four wheels and eight men; four plus eight is twelve; twelve inches make a ruler; a ruler is Queen Elizabeth; the "Queen Elizabeth" sails the seven seas; the seven seas have fish; the fish have fins; the Finns hate the Russians; the Russians are red; fire trucks are always rushin' therefore they're red.
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Post by snow on Jun 21, 2012 21:55:00 GMT -5
The discussion about why wearing the color red was ever a taboo reminds me of this: Why are Fire Trucks Red?They have four wheels and eight men; four plus eight is twelve; twelve inches make a ruler; a ruler is Queen Elizabeth; the "Queen Elizabeth" sails the seven seas; the seven seas have fish; the fish have fins; the Finns hate the Russians; the Russians are red; fire trucks are always rushin' therefore they're red. Certainly makes about as much sense. Thanks for the laugh
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 22, 2012 0:39:12 GMT -5
cornsilk... see that little 'quote' link in the upper right corner of each post?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 22, 2012 0:46:26 GMT -5
I, personally don't hide anything from anyone. I wear the same clothing around the workers as I do around my family. My television is in the living room. I don't feel condemned. I treat the workers like family. They have told me that they like being in my home because they can relax. Do you suppose that we, trying our best, often determine how a worker needs to behave when around us? I don't know. I know better than to worship a man. My eyes are on Jesus, as He is the author and finisher of my faith. That's good. I don't see any reason to hide such things either. If someone disagrees about something he sees and wants to discuss it, that's just an opportunity for an interesting conversation and perhaps something more significant. But like you, I don't find that any make a problem of it or even see it as something to discuss. Not yet anyway.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 22, 2012 0:52:03 GMT -5
Sitting in the front row listening, my husband leaned over and whispered to me, "rebel!" I chuckled as I looked up and saw the worker with a red Bible in his hand. ;D I am sure he is now gone, as he was old then, but I would love to know who he was! Aren't most of the hymn books red, anyway? Why would red on a Bible be particularly interesting?
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Post by cornsilk on Jun 22, 2012 5:00:52 GMT -5
Sitting in the front row listening, my husband leaned over and whispered to me, "rebel!" I chuckled as I looked up and saw the worker with a red Bible in his hand. ;D I am sure he is now gone, as he was old then, but I would love to know who he was! Aren't most of the hymn books red, anyway? Why would red on a Bible be particularly interesting? Oh boy! Let me see if I can do this..... The COVER on the Bible was red! Most are black. Thanks for the head's up on quotes. I was wishing I knew how to do that!
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Post by ScholarGal on Jun 22, 2012 14:14:30 GMT -5
I think it's interesting about the color red. I never knew it was wrong to wear red. I wore it quite a bit because I liked it. Guess that was just one more thing I did wrong. Guess it didn't matter to the workers anymore because it seemed like I was too far gone for them to worry about wearing red. I'm with snow. I grew up wearing red, and not having a problem with it. However, in visiting friends from different parts, wearing red was a real problem (also white shoes for some strange reason). Back in the 1980's my mom had an amazing shimmery red dress that she frequently wore to Sunday morning meeting. I think some people viewed her as a rebel for wearing that dress, but I never knew whether it was for the color or for the material. I always had a pair of white dress shoes. When I went to college, some fashion etiquette specialist informed me that I shouldn't wear my white shoes between Labor Day (September) and Memorial Day (May), so they shouldn't be in my tiny dorm room closet. (She obviously didn't understand that my entire wardrobe fit in my dorm room closet.)
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 22, 2012 14:20:26 GMT -5
Sitting in the front row listening, my husband leaned over and whispered to me, "rebel!" I chuckled as I looked up and saw the worker with a red Bible in his hand. ;D I am sure he is now gone, as he was old then, but I would love to know who he was! Aren't most of the hymn books red, anyway? Why would red on a Bible be particularly interesting? They didn't used to be red--The 1951 editions were green, royal blue, burgundy black and brown...green, like the one shown here: www.tellingthetruth.info/home/PS to scholargirl--I dont think the Texans had a thing about wearing red. While I lived there, I had red carpet, red cars, red luggage, many red dresses and red shoes & purses. So if that is where your mom wore her red dress--the Texas friends would not have had an issue with it.
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Post by ScholarGal on Jun 22, 2012 14:34:01 GMT -5
Aren't most of the hymn books red, anyway? Why would red on a Bible be particularly interesting? They didn't used to be red--The 1951 editions were green, royal blue, burgundy black and brown...green, like the one shown here: www.tellingthetruth.info/home/PS to scholargirl--I dont think the Texans had a thing about wearing red. While I lived there, I had red carpet, red cars, red luggage, many red dresses and red shoes & purses. So if that is where your mom wore her red dress--the Texas friends would not have had an issue with it. I think it was more of a fall/winter dress... not really the best thing to take to Texas for a summer visit!
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guilt
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by guilt on Jun 22, 2012 15:03:56 GMT -5
My television is in the living room. I don't feel condemned. They have told me that they like being in my home because they can relax. I would REALLY like to know where you live, because I can assure you from very personal experience that you will NOT have any worker in the state of Arizona telling you they 'like' being in your home if you have a television. More of those 'cultural' differences they speak of, I guess.
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Post by inpeaceabiding on Jun 22, 2012 15:10:51 GMT -5
Hmmm...one of the friends in our area has a television, and her home seems to be one of the most visited by the workers in the area.
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Post by Greg on Jun 22, 2012 15:14:44 GMT -5
Hmmm...one of the friends in our area has a television, and her home seems to be one of the most visited by the workers in the area. Does she have wifi, too?
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Post by inpeaceabiding on Jun 22, 2012 15:20:22 GMT -5
No idea. But her home is very peaceful.
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Post by apple on Jun 22, 2012 18:47:22 GMT -5
We had hopes that he was seeing through the falseness of his faith. Turns out that the friends and workers are just as nitpicky and petty as the Amish. Just as exclusive. Just as self righteous and just as sincere. Just as human. Just as in need of the true gospel as we thought that Amish man was. Oh that kind of smug attitude makes me mad! Who are others to judge the faith of others as false?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 22, 2012 20:44:25 GMT -5
Aren't most of the hymn books red, anyway? Why would red on a Bible be particularly interesting? Oh boy! Let me see if I can do this..... The COVER on the Bible was red! Most are black. Indeed -- but most of the hymn book (not Bible) covers are red! Why was that never an issue? Or were they not mostly red at that time and place?
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