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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 11:58:08 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 13:50:46 GMT -5
Ron & Linda McMaine are requesting an amendment to Conditional Use Permit #03-97 which conditionally authorized the use of the property as a summer church retreat four days a year.
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will
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Post by will on Jun 7, 2012 13:54:38 GMT -5
Do you have your own bots that search for this type of info? :-)
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Post by Greg on Jun 7, 2012 13:58:57 GMT -5
Ron & Linda McMaine are requesting an amendment to Conditional Use Permit #03-97 which conditionally authorized the use of the property as a summer church retreat four days a year. That was 2007. No update? |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 7, 2012 14:02:44 GMT -5
What a sick violation of property rights.
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Post by Greg on Jun 7, 2012 14:14:11 GMT -5
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will
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Post by will on Jun 7, 2012 14:19:56 GMT -5
To demonstrate, laverdad can reveal his full name and we'll see how much info we can find on the Internet about him. It can be a game of sorts.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 14:26:19 GMT -5
Amazing how people defend the secrecy of a group. And then get shocked when the group isn't always honest and decent about their affairs. It is amazing how some think newspapers shouldn't cover anything about the fellowship. I believe this mindset has its origins in the British Isles. Around 1890s. During the age of Queen Victoria when England was secretive...An encylopedia actually said that!!!
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will
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Post by will on Jun 7, 2012 14:30:50 GMT -5
Personally, I think the group should be transparent -- no secrets. It's individual and family privacy that I mourn. I'm guilty of Google search and reveal as much as anybody, actually.
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Post by Greg on Jun 7, 2012 14:35:04 GMT -5
What secrets do they have?
What do people need to know about them?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 7, 2012 23:38:44 GMT -5
Amazing how people defend the secrecy of a group. And then get shocked when the group isn't always honest and decent about their affairs. It is amazing how some think newspapers shouldn't cover anything about the fellowship. I believe this mindset has its origins in the British Isles. Around 1890s. During the age of Queen Victoria when England was secretive...An encylopedia actually said that!!! No, it's not. Secrecy does not imply dishonesty or indecency as you suggest it does and there is nothing wrong with keeping secrets. You don't have a right to know everything that goes on in the world. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2012 23:44:42 GMT -5
To demonstrate, laverdad can reveal his full name and we'll see how much info we can find on the Internet about him. It can be a game of sorts. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 8:39:30 GMT -5
You don't have a right to know everything that goes on in the world.
###
I think the people of any group need to know what goes on in their group. There needs to be some accountability, transparency etc.. Secrecy creates a culture of dishonesty. Fidel Castro doesn't want the US to know what happens there but that doesn't mean we shouldn't know how a government treats its people. Secrecy and dishonesty and abuse often go together. I have no authority over anyone. But church leaders and politicians DO NOT DESERVE that kind of secrecy.
Most preachers publish reports about their groups for their members and anyone to see. The workers are spending their friends money on lavish church buildings and the FRIENDS need to know how it is spent. Some don't care and that is OK too. But others need to know.
Why are they so secretive? No wonder Doug Parker wrote the Secret Sect book using that title. The spin. Some inthe know know more than those out of the loop.
This culture of secrecy and lack of accountability created an atmosphere where CSA was hidden, victims were slandered and silenced and perverts were given responsibility in some cases. Mr. Overseer, TEAR DOWN THAT WALL OF SECRECY!!
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Post by Greg on Jun 8, 2012 9:00:49 GMT -5
You don't have a right to know everything that goes on in the world. ### I think the people of any group need to know what goes on in their group. There needs to be some accountability, transparency etc.. Secrecy creates a culture of dishonesty. Fidel Castro doesn't want the US to know what happens there but that doesn't mean we shouldn't know how a government treats its people. Secrecy and dishonesty and abuse often go together. I have no authority over anyone. But church leaders and politicians DO NOT DESERVE that kind of secrecy. Secrecy. This group - TMB - might need to know more about its members....names, current church affiliation, tritnity belief. You know, transparency and all. Who in the church of the F&W do you think is unaware of how their gifts are used? Convention use is pretty open and perhaps wlecomed and enjoyed by many, perhaps most. "The Secret Sect" is spin. Little known, perhaps. Quiet and reserved, perhaps. I think the protection of the idealsim and reputation of the work and the workers is as much to blame for any slandered and silenced victims and worker offenders being moved around. Also some ignorance on the nature of some of the offenders. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 9:04:08 GMT -5
True Greg. So many in my family DO NOT WANT to know ANYTHING about the group. Ignorance is bliss mindset, I guess you could call it.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 8, 2012 9:04:19 GMT -5
THE BLUE GRASS FARMERS MARKET INC The Linda that is mentioned on that page is the founder and past president of the Bluegrass Farmers Market, which is a local growers only farmers market. This does not have anything to do with the convention grounds, and I thought I should make that clear to those that read here. The McMaine's have made sure that the grounds have been built, upgraded and are maintained in such a way that all applicable codes are being followed, with special emphasis on the food service code compliance. They are also very involved with the local community and are transparent in all their dealings in the area in regard to their convention property. Scott |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 9:07:50 GMT -5
The McMaine's have made sure that the grounds have been built, upgraded and are maintained in such a way that all applicable codes are being followed, with special emphasis on the food service code compliance.
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This is true. A very neat and clean convention grounds. Much nicer than Shoals!! Shoals is better now. A few years ago, the dorms looked like they were falling down.
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Post by quizzer on Jun 8, 2012 9:16:48 GMT -5
To demonstrate, laverdad can reveal his full name and we'll see how much info we can find on the Internet about him. It can be a game of sorts. Aren't we dealing with public information about grounds used by a group? Doesn't seem like we're targeting private individuals. |
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Post by Greg on Jun 8, 2012 9:25:10 GMT -5
THE BLUE GRASS FARMERS MARKET INC The Linda that is mentioned on that page is the founder and past president of the Bluegrass Farmers Market, which is a local growers only farmers market. This does not have anything to do with the convention grounds, and I thought I should make that clear to those that read here. The McMaine's have made sure that the grounds have been built, upgraded and are maintained in such a way that all applicable codes are being followed, with special emphasis on the food service code compliance. They are also very involved with the local community and are transparent in all their dealings in the area in regard to their convention property. Scott Would this be a rarity for convention grounds? No family business connection at all? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 11:10:02 GMT -5
I don't think Shoals IN has any business. The owner of Yellow Springs is a doctor and he don't operate in the meeting shed! HA. I think Mr. Klepzig in Apopka Florida owns a blacktopping business. It varies from place to place. I think the owners of Milford NH own a business in town but not on the grounds.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 8, 2012 11:59:52 GMT -5
To demonstrate, laverdad can reveal his full name and we'll see how much info we can find on the Internet about him. It can be a game of sorts. Aren't we dealing with public information about grounds used by a group? Doesn't seem like we're targeting private individuals. Some of this information they were presumable forced by their local government to reveal -- on threat of jail, fines, property takeover, or however they enforce their zoning code. It's not really fair to lump that in the same category as information people willing publish about themselves. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 8, 2012 12:03:04 GMT -5
Most preachers publish reports about their groups for their members and anyone to see. The workers are spending their friends money on lavish church buildings and the FRIENDS need to know how it is spent. Some don't care and that is OK too. But others need to know. That's a ridiculous charge. If you're talking about convention buildings, you know that those are open for everyone to see and use. There's no secret whatsoever there. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 12:15:33 GMT -5
CUL, there are many aspects that are hidden to the rank and file professing saints. How many friends know how much money was paid for them? Few. The lack of transparency is the MAIN reason there are so many websites about this fellowship. It is all a culture of openess, accountability and honesty. I will say it until it changes. And it is up to those at the top to democratize the group. And I have heard it say that "God's way isn't a democracy". Our veterans of this land (USA) fought and died so we could have freedom. We are in a free country. Groups and organizations do not need to restrict the freedom of their members and lie to them in ANY WAY. Our founding fathers in the US created a system of checks and balances. They encouraged accountability and honesty. The founders of COmmunism and Nazism didn't and look what happened. Let the light shine into the darkness of secrecy.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 8, 2012 13:50:56 GMT -5
CUL, there are many aspects that are hidden to the rank and file professing saints. How many friends know how much money was paid for them? Few. Does it matter? They could call up a construction supply company and get a quote -- and a construction company if it was built by a hired company rather than freely-given time as they often are. They can see what was done and they know that buildings cost a lot of time and money. There are no secrets here. No, I don't think so. There are a lot of things allegedly about the group that people complain besides the supposed lack of transparency. Yeah, it pretty much is. Democratize it? Why should the majority impose their will on the rest of us? Let us have true freedom to walk in the will of God, not some tyranny of the majority. Of course God's way is not a democracy. Jesus is King! Democracy is rebellion against God. What? No, they didn't. They fought and died because politicians sent them to fight and die to serve their own careers and the bank accounts of large military-industrial companies. Don't confuse political freedom -- freedom from government -- with your idea of "freedom" from a church group that people in fact join freely and remain in freely. There you go, repeating that cult-speak. You, like most American citizens, have had that mantra drilled into your head so incessantly from childhood on that you probably don't even stop to question what you're saying in light of the country that you actually live in and what's going on around you. Absolutely right! I'm glad you got something right! Many of them fought very hard for freedom and to prevent the sorts of things that have tended to prevail in the government for the last hundred years and more. But they obviously failed at that -- the Constitution has not prevented the federal government from growing into the enormous beast that it is now. Also, they were all human as we are. Even the good ones were flawed and had weak points in their philosophy. Many of them were no better than a modern politician and deliberately sought to enlarge the power of the government for their own benefit. Look at all the attributes of Communism and Naziism that have seeped into the United States since then. The term "national socialism" is actually pretty appropriate for the type of government that we have now. Very strong nationalistic feelings, fear and warmongering against foreigners, and an ever-increasing government control over private business. |
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Post by quizzer on Jun 8, 2012 16:43:01 GMT -5
Aren't we dealing with public information about grounds used by a group? Doesn't seem like we're targeting private individuals. Some of this information they were presumable forced by their local government to reveal -- on threat of jail, fines, property takeover, or however they enforce their zoning code. It's not really fair to lump that in the same category as information people willing publish about themselves. If there are changes being made that impact the convention grounds, it shouldn't be private information. This is information that matters to the people in the meetings. I can understand if the elders don't want to be encumbered with explaining lengthy legal terms and zoning changes, but the information should be available to all of the friends. Sort of like an annual report or an update on a website of convention grounds. The elder could announce that there is a change, and whoever is interested can check on the website. Basically, if the workers need to know, the friends need to know. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 9, 2012 11:33:23 GMT -5
"... are requesting an amendment to Conditional Use Permit ..."
There's no explanation of what changes were being requested. We don't have reason to believe that the amendment in question would actually affect anyone who goes to convention. I'm sure if some government policy caused it to be impossible to hold convention there, that would be announced. Annual lists of conventions are already published. Obviously if it was known at the time of publication that it was not possible to hold convention there, that location would not be on the convention list. If became known later, arrangements would be made and announced in other ways. The Internet is not the only way to spread a message and websites are not the best way to get a message to a select group of people (i.e. the people that actually would care because they are planning to attend).
Remember that the owners of the grounds are in fact private individuals and that the grounds are their private property that they generously make available to you and others for convention (and often for other events as well).
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Post by jhjmr on Jun 10, 2012 15:37:20 GMT -5
So a private individual has a convention on their private property. That is their choice. However, who did the upgrading, modernization and etc. And this was done for what? A place to hold a convention for 4 days. A building for a religious meeting. A building built by MAN!! Exactly the type if building that a false church would use. There is one thing that isn't secret but the excuses for the use of a man built building used are numerous. And sure you could use that building for other things. Most aren't but even so, so are false churches. And, how many convention grounds are in trust to the workers? That should be made known. But you condemn a church building and then have your own. And yes, it is used as a church building, no trying to make an excuse like it is a farmers market. There are no prayers being said at the farmers market.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 10, 2012 18:13:32 GMT -5
So a private individual has a convention on their private property. That is their choice. However, who did the upgrading, modernization and etc. People who are willing. None of that negates the fact that it is private property owned by private individuals. It is not property held is some kind of commune. Imagine that. Who else do you expect to build a building? A dog? Define "false church". I don't know of many other churches that use the same type of building used by this group -- usually an old barn or a large, open shed-type building. There are probably a few -- I've passed some that looked like such on the outside, but I don't know what they looked like inside -- but they are rare. Excuses? Why in the world would anyone need an excuse to use a building?  God gave man the ability to use buildings. There's no commandment in the Bible that we all live in tents or in caves in the open air with nothing over our heads. Jesus used buildings. How do you know this? How many convention grounds' buildings have you checked up on a regular basis to see whether the owners or others are using them for other purposes? Without having checked, just using logic and common sense, I would venture that most are used for other purposes. Again, define "false church". I guess there are probably some false churches that use their buildings for other purposes, sometimes. Got a point? I don't know. How many? Do you have this information? Probably not many. Not that it matters. Since they're private property, the owners have the right to set up legal arrangements for them. I'm sure that such a thing is done, it's made known to the people that need to know. Since it's a private contractual arrangement, that means the parties involved in the contract. Show me where I did that. I never stated that I own any church buildings. As I said, the buildings in question are private property, owned by their owners. In this case we are talking about a specific property that is used as a convention grounds for four days a year and according to Scott's information is used as a farmer's market during part of the year. I don't think the owners need an excuse to host a farmer's market on their property, since they own the property. I strongly doubt the assertion that "there are no prayers being said at the farmers market". In fact, I assert that there are prayers being said at the farmers market. |
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God gave man the ability to use buildings. There's no commandment in the Bible that we all live in tents or in caves in the open air with nothing over our heads. Jesus used buildings.