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Post by Greg on May 18, 2012 10:00:50 GMT -5
I remain in the 2x2 system because I like many of the concepts: meeting in homes, preaching from the bible alone, workers not taught in a seminary or bible college, fundamentalist beliefs, Christ taught, prayer taught, reading the bible daily taught, etc., etc. Many of the traditions are great and, dare I say it, even Godly. But, it is still just a system and its importance shouldn't be placed ahead of the little ones. That's your comfort zone. There are things you like about the system and things you do not like. Your comfort is more important to you than your discomfort. Most likely you do little about the things you do not like because your comfort zone can be made less comfortable or even taken from you.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on May 18, 2012 12:29:07 GMT -5
Now, you are beginning to get it, Linford. We were all tricked- not by God, but by traditions of men. Some of the workers now, just like TS was, are tricked. They are believing in a system as being the only right way. They are believing that they are God's only true preachers. They are tricked in every sense of the word. I was once tricked by these traditions that I was taught. But now I feel that some of these traditions- such as putting the workers on a pedestal or "being in the only right way" are causing real harm to families across the world. And causing harm to the little ones (I'm writing of spiritual and mental harm, not necessarily CSA) and turning a blind eye to the harm- is not of Christ. I can't figure out why so many still want to enable the abusers to keep abusing just because THEY SAY that they are of God. These wells without water workers'/friends' actions prove otherwise- by their fruits shall we know them- but the TRADITION is that the SYSTEM is perfect and NO ONE is to question it. The 2x2 system is of God? Heaven forbid. It is of William Irvine. The Spirit is in the lives of the men and women within the 2x2s- in spite of the system- not because of it. Just as it is in other man made systems and traditions. I remain in the 2x2 system because I like many of the concepts: meeting in homes, preaching from the bible alone, workers not taught in a seminary or bible college, fundamentalist beliefs, Christ taught, prayer taught, reading the bible daily taught, etc., etc. Many of the traditions are great and, dare I say it, even Godly. But, it is still just a system and its importance shouldn't be placed ahead of the little ones. When we had gospel meetings, were there someone to come out of another church with a similar story as what is coming out of meeting, we would have said much of the above to them in some form or fashion. We would urge them to take a step out into the deep in faith and discover the truth and God's true fellowship. To depart from the traditions of men. ...etc We would not have encouraged them to stay in their situation because all groups have their problems....even ours....and submit to their leadership, even if they are being abused by them. Or, just ignore the abuses and let God handle it and keep going to church. No, we would somehow in the course of gospel meetings point out in scripture (mixed with some personal illustrations and testimony) how people are deceived by man's traditions. What makes the workers and friends immune to being caught up with tradition and oppressing the poor and weak? Good question. Do you have an answer?
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Post by ts on May 18, 2012 13:13:58 GMT -5
When we had gospel meetings, were there someone to come out of another church with a similar story as what is coming out of meeting, we would have said much of the above to them in some form or fashion. We would urge them to take a step out into the deep in faith and discover the truth and God's true fellowship. To depart from the traditions of men. ...etc We would not have encouraged them to stay in their situation because all groups have their problems....even ours....and submit to their leadership, even if they are being abused by them. Or, just ignore the abuses and let God handle it and keep going to church. No, we would somehow in the course of gospel meetings point out in scripture (mixed with some personal illustrations and testimony) how people are deceived by man's traditions. What makes the workers and friends immune to being caught up with tradition and oppressing the poor and weak? Good question. Do you have an answer? Yep, nothing makes them immune. But the friends and workers do not seem to see where they are caught up in traditions. However, they can see where other churches are. Like I have been saying: The things I am telling to the workers and friends are just the things that they have been preaching to "the world". In fact, they have only been talking about other parts of the body of Christ and separating themselves from those parts. I encourage them to abandon those traditions and laws that keep them separate from the rest of the body.
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Post by JO on May 18, 2012 13:33:57 GMT -5
Agenda? Defend the truth. What is "truth" to you? You seem to know a lot about television programs. Can you point me to a program that suggests its OK for a 28 year old preacher of the gospel to have an ongoing sexual relationship with a 13 year old girl who still has purple and orange butterflies on her underwear? Not only that, to have other sexual relationships with children during the course of his years in the ministry? Then being told by the father of one of these kids that he'll kill him if he doesn't marry her? Bert, I seem to recall in television I've seen that people who have sexual relationships with under aged children get sent to prison. (Removed some lines that were perhaps unnecessary)
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Post by emy on May 18, 2012 14:02:49 GMT -5
Are you relating this according to what Alan said, or do you have additional information?
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Post by JO on May 18, 2012 15:20:30 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 19:01:31 GMT -5
JO, what you referred to (and I know no details, cannot vouch for its accuracy and have no interest in it) is a BREACH OF FAITH.
I am no Catholic, but if I hear someone complain about a promiscuous priest I am not comfortable - I think to myself, "Is this a complaint about that priest, or his church, or Christianity in general?" And, "Why does this person take an interest in something negative like this? Do they focus upon everyone's failings? Do they say anything positive? Are they justifying something? Are they just haters and excusers of their own bad behavior?"
And here's the Difference: if there was a Worker who committed a trespass there would be those who would feel ashamed - and those who would celebrate it.
There are some who left our little meetings and shared in the world's entertainment culture of hate, promiscuity, revenge, pride, pedophilia, pederasty, adultery, promiscuity, dolliness, drug addiction, divorce, homosexuality, bestiality and an overt hate of God, and probably say, "I heard about a promiscuous Worker once! Glad I am here and not there!"
God judges our heart. And this is the Truth.
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Post by Greg on May 18, 2012 19:24:47 GMT -5
There are some who left our little meetings and shared in the world's entertainment culture of hate, promiscuity, revenge, pride, pedophilia, pederasty, adultery, promiscuity, dolliness, drug addiction, divorce, homosexuality, bestiality and an overt hate of God, and probably say, "I heard about a promiscuous Worker once! Glad I am here and not there!" God judges our heart. And this is the Truth. Apparently some do not need to leave the meetings for what you indicate. ============================================== "I heard about a promiscuous Worker once! Glad I am here and not there!" - (Prue?)Bert Just once? Shouldn't the comment be "I sure hope the victims and perpetrators get help!" ?
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Post by JO on May 18, 2012 20:59:39 GMT -5
I am no Catholic, but if I hear someone complain about a promiscuous priest I am not comfortable - I think to myself, " Is this a complaint about that priest, or his church, or Christianity in general?" And, " Why does this person take an interest in something negative like this? Do they focus upon everyone's failings? Do they say anything positive? Are they justifying something? Are they just haters and excusers of their own bad behavior?"You would say this to the Apostle Paul then? He wasn't happy about enablers like you Bert. ------------------ -------------------- ----------------------- -------------------- ---------------------- ----------------- 1 Corinthians 5 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 21:42:10 GMT -5
Yes, and great crowds of people left the Apostolic church. I can just imagine some of the reasons they gave: sexual immorality Paul isn't an Apostle like he says he is They can't agree on anything They lord over us and lay down rules They want to be anonymous Why can't we be like everyone else? etc etc etc
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 21:53:19 GMT -5
Yes, and great crowds of people left the Apostolic church. I can just imagine some of the reasons they gave: sexual immorality Paul isn't an Apostle like he says he is They can't agree on anything They lord over us and lay down rules They want to be anonymous Why can't we be like everyone else? etc etc etc A little imagination is fine and fun, but what about some facts bert?
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Post by Gene on May 18, 2012 22:37:55 GMT -5
... There are some who left our little meetings and shared in the world's entertainment culture of hate, promiscuity, revenge, pride, pedophilia, pederasty, adultery, promiscuity, dolliness, drug addiction, divorce, homosexuality, bestiality and an overt hate of God, and probably say, "I heard about a promiscuous Worker once! Glad I am here and not there!"... Dolliness? What is that? Something to do with Barbie and Ken?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 22:52:45 GMT -5
... There are some who left our little meetings and shared in the world's entertainment culture of hate, promiscuity, revenge, pride, pedophilia, pederasty, adultery, promiscuity, dolliness, drug addiction, divorce, homosexuality, bestiality and an overt hate of God, and probably say, "I heard about a promiscuous Worker once! Glad I am here and not there!"... Dolliness? What is that? Something to do with Barbie and Ken? maybe it means dressing up or acting like the Dalai Lama. I can just hear it: "Hey, you want to be my little Dalai tonight?"
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Post by JO on May 18, 2012 23:49:24 GMT -5
Yes, and great crowds of people left the Apostolic church. I can just imagine some of the reasons they gave: sexual immorality Paul isn't an Apostle like he says he is They can't agree on anything They lord over us and lay down rules They want to be anonymous Why can't we be like everyone else? etc etc etc The scripture says to flee from sexual immorality Bert. Try telling that to the little 13 year old girl (who still has purple and orange butterflies on her underwear) when the esteemed preacher is having sex with her every day. Try telling that to the young boys whose elder comes into their room at night to get his thrills. How can we flee sexual immorality? 1. Leave the church group that condones sexual immorality...or 2. Try to fix the church group that condones sexual immorality? --------- ----------------- ----------------- ------------------ ------------- ---------- 1 Corinthians 6: 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.
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Post by quizzer on May 19, 2012 3:01:40 GMT -5
... There are some who left our little meetings and shared in the world's entertainment culture of hate, promiscuity, revenge, pride, pedophilia, pederasty, adultery, promiscuity, dolliness, drug addiction, divorce, homosexuality, bestiality and an overt hate of God, and probably say, "I heard about a promiscuous Worker once! Glad I am here and not there!"... Dolliness? What is that? Something to do with Barbie and Ken? The proper phrase is "action figures," Gene.
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Post by Jason Storebo on May 19, 2012 14:15:39 GMT -5
Workers salt slugs.
When I was a little kid one of the young sister workers led me around our garden & yard sprinkling slugs with salt. What an agonizing way for those poor creatures to die. I suppose I was being given a kind of lesson about how sinful things should be salted...er...eliminated. Well, I've been salting things ever since.
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Post by kencoolidge on May 19, 2012 14:55:38 GMT -5
Agenda? Defend the truth. ps I have kicked a few dogs, shot a few, too. Bert Glad you stated that and it is a small t. Gods TRUTH needs no defense. I actually believe I heard that while going to meetings. ken
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Post by JO on May 19, 2012 15:59:11 GMT -5
I like Bert's agenda, "to defend the truth".
My agenda is also to defend the truth.
Its tough though. Sometimes political expediency gets in the way of truth.
Sometimes good people, our friends, get in the way of truth. They try to cover up truth out of fear.
The light of truth often exposes ugly things.
Sometimes good people, our friends, ally themselves with the wrong things and the wrong people.
We need to stand for truth even when we're despised by good people for doing so.
Standing for truth is not the way to be popular. Popularity comes from going with the flow, and truth often goes against the flow.
Aligning ourselves with truth is the narrow way.
Though all thy friends should turn away And bid thee shun the narrow way, 'Tis not worthwhile that thou shouldst be An outcast through eternity.
Hey Bert: there might be something in the above that you can take out of context for your Bertie list?
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Post by emy on May 19, 2012 16:51:45 GMT -5
--------- ----------------- ----------------- ------------------ ------------- ---------- 1 Corinthians 6: 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. It's a new twist for me to understand that this scripture means to flee from someone else's immorality. I always assumed it meant to flee from our own tendency to be immoral. We all have that tendency in human nature, don't we?
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Post by emy on May 19, 2012 16:52:29 GMT -5
Are you relating this according to what Alan said, or do you have additional information? It is a fact that "P" had a Sunday morning meeting in his home and he was the elder of that meeting (not in California, but in another Pacific Northwestern state). Thanks for the clarification. Any idea how his marriage and family is faring?
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Post by JO on May 19, 2012 19:48:57 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 6: 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. It's a new twist for me to understand that this scripture means to flee from someone else's immorality. I always assumed it meant to flee from our own tendency to be immoral. We all have that tendency in human nature, don't we? Emy, I take it to mean separating ourselves from sexual immorality. How do you think people should do that? 1. Leave any church that condones or enables sexual immorality? 2. Speak out from within the church when sexual immorality is being condoned or enabled? 3. Cast sexually immoral people out of the church - even when they're workers and elders? 4. Refuse to attend meetings held in the homes of sexually immoral people? I'm open to suggestions Emy, as long as you don't tell me I'm not to judge. The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthian Christians that they were to judge. He asked them to "expel the wicked person from among you". ===================== ================= ================ ============== 1 Corinthians 5 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
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Post by kencoolidge on May 19, 2012 20:03:24 GMT -5
Emy from the message cor1:6:16-end 16-20 There's more to sex than mere skin on skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in Scripture, "The two become one." Since we want to become spiritually one with the Master, we must not pursue the kind of sex that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever—the kind of sex that can never "become one." There is a sense in which sexual sins are different from all others. In sexual sin we violate the sacredness of our own bodies, these bodies that were made for God-given and God-modeled love, for "becoming one" with another. Or didn't you realize that your body is a sacred place, the place of the Holy Spirit? Don't you see that you can't live however you please, squandering what God paid such a high price for? The physical part of you is not some piece of property belonging to the spiritual part of you. God owns the whole works. So let people see God in and through your body. ken
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Post by emy on May 19, 2012 20:29:40 GMT -5
It's a new twist for me to understand that this scripture means to flee from someone else's immorality. I always assumed it meant to flee from our own tendency to be immoral. We all have that tendency in human nature, don't we? Emy, I take it to mean separating ourselves from sexual immorality. How do you think people should do that? 1. Leave any church that condones or enables sexual immorality? 2. Speak out from within the church when sexual immorality is being condoned or enabled? 3. Cast sexually immoral people out of the church - even when they're workers and elders? 4. Refuse to attend meetings held in the homes of sexually immoral people? I'm open to suggestions Emy, as long as you don't tell me I'm not to judge. The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthian Christians that they were to judge. He asked them to "expel the wicked person from among you". ===================== ================= ================ ============== 1 Corinthians 5 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” Looks like #3 is the choice. But I still think we do better to judge our own hearts. As Jesus said, He who is without sin, cast the first stone. Reading the chapter as a whole, it seems as if that church may have been "glorying" in pointing fingers at someone not in their fellowship, but excusing the one among them. Paul encouraged them to take care of matters within their own church. I also heard someone once say that this church was proud because they were revealing someone's sin rather than grieving because it would mean losing a brother. Not the right spirit for giving correction.
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Post by JO on May 19, 2012 20:41:28 GMT -5
Looks like #3 is the choice. But I still think we do better to judge our own hearts. As Jesus said, He who is without sin, cast the first stone. Reading the chapter as a whole, it seems as if that church may have been "glorying" in pointing fingers at someone not in their fellowship, but excusing the one among them. Paul encouraged them to take care of matters within their own church. I also heard someone once say that this church was proud because they were revealing someone's sin rather than grieving because it would mean losing a brother. Not the right spirit for giving correction. Sorry Emy, I'm not clear about what you are suggesting in practical terms. Is it the one who is moved to do something (about sexual immorality in the church) who is at fault?
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Post by emy on May 19, 2012 20:52:50 GMT -5
Emy from the message cor1:6:16-end 16-20 There's more to sex than mere skin on skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in Scripture, "The two become one." Since we want to become spiritually one with the Master, we must not pursue the kind of sex that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever—the kind of sex that can never "become one." There is a sense in which sexual sins are different from all others. In sexual sin we violate the sacredness of our own bodies, these bodies that were made for God-given and God-modeled love, for "becoming one" with another. Or didn't you realize that your body is a sacred place, the place of the Holy Spirit? Don't you see that you can't live however you please, squandering what God paid such a high price for? The physical part of you is not some piece of property belonging to the spiritual part of you. God owns the whole works. So let people see God in and through your body. ken Yes, keep your own body pure.
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Post by emy on May 19, 2012 20:56:01 GMT -5
Looks like #3 is the choice. But I still think we do better to judge our own hearts. As Jesus said, He who is without sin, cast the first stone. Reading the chapter as a whole, it seems as if that church may have been "glorying" in pointing fingers at someone not in their fellowship, but excusing the one among them. Paul encouraged them to take care of matters within their own church. I also heard someone once say that this church was proud because they were revealing someone's sin rather than grieving because it would mean losing a brother. Not the right spirit for giving correction. Sorry Emy, I'm not clear about what you are suggesting in practical terms. Is it the one who is moved to do something (about sexual immorality in the church) who is at fault? Not sure what you are unclear about. I don't know know how to clarify. Jesus was saying, look to your own sin first and as I understand it, Paul was saying the same: run from any tendency in your heart to act immorally.
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Post by JO on May 19, 2012 21:16:17 GMT -5
Not sure what you are unclear about. I don't know know how to clarify. Jesus was saying, look to your own sin first and as I understand it, Paul was saying the same: run from any tendency in your heart to act immorally. I agree. But that doesn't excuse complacency around sexual immorality in the fellowship. Do you think Paul was wrong to ask the Corinthians to judge those inside and to expel the wicked sexually immoral person from among them? 1 Corinthians 5 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
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Post by JO on May 19, 2012 21:18:47 GMT -5
Emy, do you think the power of godliness in a life is able to give friends and workers power over their zippers?
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