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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 20:05:45 GMT -5
I remember the warnings against the HATE MAIL sent out to God's people back in the 1990s. I assume this "hate mail" was some exit letters. The late Arnold Brown told us to NOT READ them but to burn them up. I didn't know anything about this hate mail campaign. I thought that there was some threats of violence against the workers and friends. AB led me to a search for the Secret Sect book after he badmouthed it at Yellow Springs convention. Five years later, I googled SECRET SECT and the REST IS HISTORY. So I guess I should THANK old Arnold for his message. Maybe these sermons got the ball rolling for some of us.
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Post by Greg on May 17, 2012 20:40:21 GMT -5
I remember the warnings against the HATE MAIL sent out to God's people back in the 1990s. I assume this "hate mail" was some exit letters. The late Arnold Brown told us to NOT READ them but to burn them up. I didn't know anything about this hate mail campaign. I thought that there was some threats of violence against the workers and friends. AB led me to a search for the Secret Sect book after he badmouthed it at Yellow Springs convention. Five years later, I googled SECRET SECT and the REST IS HISTORY. So I guess I should THANK old Arnold for his message. Maybe these sermons got the ball rolling for some of us. You were looking for a door out and the Secret Sect was the door?
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 21:00:53 GMT -5
Laverdad, someone in my family raised the possibility of giving me Dawkin's book, "The God Delusion" as a Christmas present. Should I read it?
I believe it's "all facts." Should I believe it?
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Post by Happy Feet on May 17, 2012 21:07:03 GMT -5
Laverdad, someone in my family raised the possibility of giving me Dawkin's book, "The God Delusion" as a Christmas present. Should I read it? I believe it's "all facts." Should I believe it? I believe it's "all facts." Should I believe it? One for your list Bert. Tops them all!! However, I agree with you Bert. The book The Secret Sect is unbelievable. To think that these facts were hidden from us and lied about - it's unbelievable.!!
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Post by ts on May 17, 2012 21:09:56 GMT -5
I remember the warnings against the HATE MAIL sent out to God's people back in the 1990s. I assume this "hate mail" was some exit letters. The late Arnold Brown told us to NOT READ them but to burn them up. I didn't know anything about this hate mail campaign. I thought that there was some threats of violence against the workers and friends. AB led me to a search for the Secret Sect book after he badmouthed it at Yellow Springs convention. Five years later, I googled SECRET SECT and the REST IS HISTORY. So I guess I should THANK old Arnold for his message. Maybe these sermons got the ball rolling for some of us. I heard the same thing from AB and others. I obeyed and did not read the hate mail. Oddly enough, I formed the same opinions as expressed in some of those letters (based on what I have read subsequently) on my own. I wasn't looking for a way out. I was just looking and observing. I defended "the truth" to my unprofessing family even when it was obvious to them that the workers had used me and left me high and dry. I defended "the truth" to my future wife even though she was obviously disillusioned by the immorality she had seen among the workers. Yet the evidence mounted and was undeniable. There are a lot of evil things going on in the work and there are a lot of people getting hurt. Not just an isolated event here and there.
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Post by CherieKropp on May 17, 2012 21:11:45 GMT -5
Perhaps Arnold Brown was talking about the Summer, 1997 letter that was mailed out to over 3,000 friends--mostly on the East Coast. Or it could have been the series letters by Brian Lord? Or perhaps Ken Coolidge's letters? Who knows?
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Post by ts on May 17, 2012 21:17:37 GMT -5
Perhaps Arnold Brown was talking about the Summer, 1997 letter that was mailed out to over 3,000 friends--mostly on the East Coast. Or it could have been the series letters by Brian Lord? Or perhaps Ken Coolidge's letters? Who knows? I did not give a flip about it in the day, but I remember some letters sent out from CO. Supposedly some rich guy ex fellow who was "causing problems." I was given the opportunity to read it. I didn't.
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Post by Greg on May 17, 2012 21:24:13 GMT -5
You did leave them, ts.
If they accept to follow Jesus (as you contend they do not, in general I guess) through your preaching or another's, just what exactly will be visible of their doing?
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Post by ts on May 17, 2012 21:52:24 GMT -5
You did leave them, ts. If they accept to follow Jesus (as you contend they do not, in general I guess) through your preaching or another's, just what exactly will be visible of their doing? I am not quite sure what you are asking. What people might do if they follow Jesus could take many forms. It could happen in many different groups, alone or even in meeting. If the meeting folk were truly free to follow their God given destinies, I would expect to see women with pants, dresses, long and short hair with make up, without makeup, with jewelry, without jewelry all worshiping together and it not make a bit of difference. That is just an example. Godliness would not be dependent on man made doctrine. That includes the man made doctrine of having only unmarried workers, of course. I would expect that more of the friends would go to other churches. I would think that the workers would go for training with other preachers that they previously would have thought to be "of the world". Basically the friends should be free to experience what is "out there" without the guilt of feeling like they are being "tossed to and fro by every wind and doctrine." There is a lot that is solid Jesus' teaching that is not Meeting doctrine. Every individual has his own unique character and unique gifts. Every group has its character as well. God cannot be put in a box. Greg, there are as many specific answers to your question as there are people. I do not believe that the answer to following Jesus is that we are all going to look alike, have the same hairdo.
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Post by Greg on May 17, 2012 22:03:41 GMT -5
You did leave them, ts. If they accept to follow Jesus (as you contend they do not, in general I guess) through your preaching or another's, just what exactly will be visible of their doing? I am not quite sure what you are asking....Greg, there are as many specific answers to your question as there are people. I do not believe that the answer to following Jesus is that we are all going to look alike, have the same hairdo. Thanks again. That answers my question.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 2:33:26 GMT -5
Can you find any lie in "The God Delusion"? I haven't heard of any. And if it has no lies, then its conclusions must be true? (not a quote, a question)
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 2:40:14 GMT -5
someone in my family raised the possibility of giving me Dawkin's book, "The God Delusion" as a Christmas present. Should I read it?
Bert, you should read it. It just has to be about Santa Claus.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 2:55:44 GMT -5
Ram, there are whole libraries of titles on atheistic and/or anti-bible themes. I read them, just as I read The Secret Sect. I read Darwin's famous "The Origin of Species" and did not spot a single erroneous statement. I have been through Robert Eiseman's "James the Brother of Jesus" which details how the true church was wrenched away from Jesus' family by those following the Legalistic Paul. I struggled to find a factual error in the book. I suggested people on the TMB read this book and I was told its not a good book to be reading. I found these responses to be ironic, and intellectually weak.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 3:45:36 GMT -5
Ram, there are whole libraries of titles on atheistic and/or anti-bible themes. I read them, just as I read The Secret Sect. I read Darwin's famous "The Origin of Species" and did not spot a single erroneous statement. I have been through Robert Eiseman's "James the Brother of Jesus" which details how the true church was wrenched away from Jesus' family by those following the Legalistic Paul. I struggled to find a factual error in the book. I suggested people on the TMB read this book and I was told its not a good book to be reading. I found these responses to be ironic, and intellectually weak. On the flip side, we read the Bible as the Holy word of God for guidance and instruction, yet ignore the fact that at least one of the gospel writers was prone to gross exaggeration. You just have to accept the human mind for what it is Bert. I'm delighted though that your lists are not only bold in their presentation by are also highly accurate and meticulously preserved for future generations. Keep it up!
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 4:28:59 GMT -5
Ram, I once recorded this statement, "Workers drown cats." True? In at least one case, possibly. Conclusion? (This is the real issue, isn't it?) Workers are cruel and callous.
True statement, erroneous conclusion masked as truth.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 4:49:40 GMT -5
Ram, I once recorded this statement, "Workers drown cats." True? In at least one case, possibly. Conclusion? (This is the real issue, isn't it?) Workers are cruel and callous. True statement, erroneous conclusion masked as truth. Here's another one Bert. "Joe Morgan kicks dogs!" He was an old Irish worker who laboured in Scotland many years ago. I witnessed him lunging sharply at our puppy with the toe of his shoe, sending the young mutt scurrying into the kitchen, yelping in pain. All because it was trying to be friendly and welcoming him into the house. Actually the statement is erroneous. It should read "Joe Morgan kicked a dog" not "kicks dogs." Feel free to include this on your lists in whatever category you choose. For those who may consider Joe's action to be cruel and callous, the SSPCA (Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruely to Animals) and the RSPCA (English equivelent ie The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) claim that those who abuse animals are also likely to abuse children. I heard recently that Ol' Joe liked to cuddle young children and in circumstances on at least one occasion where the young girl's mother was quite concerned.
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Post by JO on May 18, 2012 4:50:30 GMT -5
What is your agenda Bert?
Please forgive me if you've stated it before, but I guess its worth repeating.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 4:56:06 GMT -5
Agenda? Defend the truth. ps I have kicked a few dogs, shot a few, too.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 5:17:10 GMT -5
Agenda? Defend the truth. ps I have kicked a few dogs, shot a few, too. Dingos? Or, you dingo after that kind?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 5:59:37 GMT -5
Actually I have never seen a wild dingo. We do have a problem at times with feral dogs, some of them being our own. Don't read anything into it.
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Post by williamirvine7 on May 18, 2012 6:41:37 GMT -5
I remember the warnings against the HATE MAIL sent out to God's people back in the 1990s. I assume this "hate mail" was some exit letters. The late Arnold Brown told us to NOT READ them but to burn them up. I didn't know anything about this hate mail campaign. I thought that there was some threats of violence against the workers and friends. AB led me to a search for the Secret Sect book after he badmouthed it at Yellow Springs convention. Five years later, I googled SECRET SECT and the REST IS HISTORY. So I guess I should THANK old Arnold for his message. Maybe these sermons got the ball rolling for some of us. Yup he let the cat out of the bag
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Post by williamirvine7 on May 18, 2012 6:42:17 GMT -5
I remember the warnings against the HATE MAIL sent out to God's people back in the 1990s. I assume this "hate mail" was some exit letters. The late Arnold Brown told us to NOT READ them but to burn them up. I didn't know anything about this hate mail campaign. I thought that there was some threats of violence against the workers and friends. AB led me to a search for the Secret Sect book after he badmouthed it at Yellow Springs convention. Five years later, I googled SECRET SECT and the REST IS HISTORY. So I guess I should THANK old Arnold for his message. Maybe these sermons got the ball rolling for some of us. You were looking for a door out and the Secret Sect was the door? Baloney The Secret Sect book first has to be read I would think
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 7:41:11 GMT -5
No bolognia Lloyd - those who believe in the meetings are not persuaded, those who don't believe want an exit - and the Secret Sect was that exit. Exactly. You choose to believe in the meetings as your object of faith or you choose to believe in God as your object of faith. Take your pick. If the meetings had that sort of influence on her, she definitely needed to move on. Now what about the people who have abused children and are still in the work or have a meeting in their home? Let's hope there are more revelations. So you are saying that meeting people are saying that it is a good thing to read "The God Delusion"?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on May 18, 2012 7:49:00 GMT -5
I remember the warnings against the HATE MAIL sent out to God's people back in the 1990s. I assume this "hate mail" was some exit letters. The late Arnold Brown told us to NOT READ them but to burn them up. I didn't know anything about this hate mail campaign. I thought that there was some threats of violence against the workers and friends. AB led me to a search for the Secret Sect book after he badmouthed it at Yellow Springs convention. Five years later, I googled SECRET SECT and the REST IS HISTORY. So I guess I should THANK old Arnold for his message. Maybe these sermons got the ball rolling for some of us. I heard the same thing from AB and others. I obeyed and did not read the hate mail. Oddly enough, I formed the same opinions as expressed in some of those letters (based on what I have read subsequently) on my own. I wasn't looking for a way out. I was just looking and observing. I defended "the truth" to my unprofessing family even when it was obvious to them that the workers had used me and left me high and dry. I defended "the truth" to my future wife even though she was obviously disillusioned by the immorality she had seen among the workers. Yet the evidence mounted and was undeniable. There are a lot of evil things going on in the work and there are a lot of people getting hurt. Not just an isolated event here and there. It sounds to me that God tricked you into believing this thing ts. Why put the blame where it should go. God has decieved workers and all. Is that what you are saying.Is that your opinion of God?
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Post by quizzer on May 18, 2012 8:48:41 GMT -5
I remember the warnings against the HATE MAIL sent out to God's people back in the 1990s. I assume this "hate mail" was some exit letters. The late Arnold Brown told us to NOT READ them but to burn them up. I didn't know anything about this hate mail campaign. I thought that there was some threats of violence against the workers and friends. AB led me to a search for the Secret Sect book after he badmouthed it at Yellow Springs convention. Five years later, I googled SECRET SECT and the REST IS HISTORY. So I guess I should THANK old Arnold for his message. Maybe these sermons got the ball rolling for some of us. It's interesting because you also hear the workers warning you about the dangers of the Internet. True, there are dangers on the Internet. However, the workers are usually warning you about TMB. Why? I dunno.
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Post by sacerdotal on May 18, 2012 8:53:09 GMT -5
I heard the same thing from AB and others. I obeyed and did not read the hate mail. Oddly enough, I formed the same opinions as expressed in some of those letters (based on what I have read subsequently) on my own. I wasn't looking for a way out. I was just looking and observing. I defended "the truth" to my unprofessing family even when it was obvious to them that the workers had used me and left me high and dry. I defended "the truth" to my future wife even though she was obviously disillusioned by the immorality she had seen among the workers. Yet the evidence mounted and was undeniable. There are a lot of evil things going on in the work and there are a lot of people getting hurt. Not just an isolated event here and there. It sounds to me that God tricked you into believing this thing ts. Why put the blame where it should go. God has decieved workers and all. Is that what you are saying.Is that your opinion of God? Now, you are beginning to get it, Linford. We were all tricked- not by God, but by traditions of men. Some of the workers now, just like TS was, are tricked. They are believing in a system as being the only right way. They are believing that they are God's only true preachers. They are tricked in every sense of the word. I was once tricked by these traditions that I was taught. But now I feel that some of these traditions- such as putting the workers on a pedestal or "being in the only right way" are causing real harm to families across the world. And causing harm to the little ones (I'm writing of spiritual and mental harm, not necessarily CSA) and turning a blind eye to the harm- is not of Christ. I can't figure out why so many still want to enable the abusers to keep abusing just because THEY SAY that they are of God. These wells without water workers'/friends' actions prove otherwise- by their fruits shall we know them- but the TRADITION is that the SYSTEM is perfect and NO ONE is to question it. The 2x2 system is of God? Heaven forbid. It is of William Irvine. The Spirit is in the lives of the men and women within the 2x2s- in spite of the system- not because of it. Just as it is in other man made systems and traditions. I remain in the 2x2 system because I like many of the concepts: meeting in homes, preaching from the bible alone, workers not taught in a seminary or bible college, fundamentalist beliefs, Christ taught, prayer taught, reading the bible daily taught, etc., etc. Many of the traditions are great and, dare I say it, even Godly. But, it is still just a system and its importance shouldn't be placed ahead of the little ones.
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Post by williamirvine7 on May 18, 2012 9:16:22 GMT -5
It sounds to me that God tricked you into believing this thing ts. Why put the blame where it should go. God has decieved workers and all. Is that what you are saying.Is that your opinion of God? Now, you are beginning to get it, Linford. We were all tricked- not by God, but by traditions of men. Some of the workers now, just like TS was, are tricked. They are believing in a system as being the only right way. They are believing that they are God's only true preachers. They are tricked in every sense of the word. I was once tricked by these traditions that I was taught. But now I feel that some of these traditions- such as putting the workers on a pedestal or "being in the only right way" are causing real harm to families across the world. And causing harm to the little ones (I'm writing of spiritual and mental harm, not necessarily CSA) and turning a blind eye to the harm- is not of Christ. I can't figure out why so many still want to enable the abusers to keep abusing just because THEY SAY that they are of God. These wells without water workers'/friends' actions prove otherwise- by their fruits shall we know them- but the TRADITION is that the SYSTEM is perfect and NO ONE is to question it. The 2x2 system is of God? Heaven forbid. It is of William Irvine. The Spirit is in the lives of the men and women within the 2x2s- in spite of the system- not because of it. Just as it is in other man made systems and traditions. I remain in the 2x2 system because I like many of the concepts: meeting in homes, preaching from the bible alone, workers not taught in a seminary or bible college, fundamentalist beliefs, Christ taught, prayer taught, reading the bible daily taught, etc., etc. Many of the traditions are great and, dare I say it, even Godly. But, it is still just a system and its importance shouldn't be placed ahead of the little ones. I agree
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Post by ts on May 18, 2012 9:43:34 GMT -5
It sounds to me that God tricked you into believing this thing ts. Why put the blame where it should go. God has decieved workers and all. Is that what you are saying.Is that your opinion of God? Now, you are beginning to get it, Linford. We were all tricked- not by God, but by traditions of men. Some of the workers now, just like TS was, are tricked. They are believing in a system as being the only right way. They are believing that they are God's only true preachers. They are tricked in every sense of the word. I was once tricked by these traditions that I was taught. But now I feel that some of these traditions- such as putting the workers on a pedestal or "being in the only right way" are causing real harm to families across the world. And causing harm to the little ones (I'm writing of spiritual and mental harm, not necessarily CSA) and turning a blind eye to the harm- is not of Christ. I can't figure out why so many still want to enable the abusers to keep abusing just because THEY SAY that they are of God. These wells without water workers'/friends' actions prove otherwise- by their fruits shall we know them- but the TRADITION is that the SYSTEM is perfect and NO ONE is to question it. The 2x2 system is of God? Heaven forbid. It is of William Irvine. The Spirit is in the lives of the men and women within the 2x2s- in spite of the system- not because of it. Just as it is in other man made systems and traditions. I remain in the 2x2 system because I like many of the concepts: meeting in homes, preaching from the bible alone, workers not taught in a seminary or bible college, fundamentalist beliefs, Christ taught, prayer taught, reading the bible daily taught, etc., etc. Many of the traditions are great and, dare I say it, even Godly. But, it is still just a system and its importance shouldn't be placed ahead of the little ones. When we had gospel meetings, were there someone to come out of another church with a similar story as what is coming out of meeting, we would have said much of the above to them in some form or fashion. We would urge them to take a step out into the deep in faith and discover the truth and God's true fellowship. To depart from the traditions of men. ...etc We would not have encouraged them to stay in their situation because all groups have their problems....even ours....and submit to their leadership, even if they are being abused by them. Or, just ignore the abuses and let God handle it and keep going to church. No, we would somehow in the course of gospel meetings point out in scripture (mixed with some personal illustrations and testimony) how people are deceived by man's traditions. What makes the workers and friends immune to being caught up with tradition and oppressing the poor and weak?
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