|
Post by What Hat on Dec 25, 2011 15:23:40 GMT -5
Egad. Heaven help us. The Impartial Reporter incarnate reviews the friends and workers. Hopefully Irvine Grey will disregard your advice completely but I'm not so sure. He has not been forthcoming with his personal views, so who knows. Jump and dodge whenever asked a direct question. Yes, I know your opinion of Irvine Grey...it became very evident on the first page of the thread...his use of the word "cult" sent you into orbit....which is particularly not like you to be so unreasonable.....I think the question stated on the name of this thread was simply a way of getting "opinions" as well as what others have experienced" I actually feel for IG for he has to sort through and find that which he's knowing he's looking for! I don't have a problem with people using the word cult. But I do have issues when it's used in a racist way. Racism does send me into orbit. You don't see the racism at the root of people like Walter Martin, so you don't understand my reaction. Believe me, other people do see it.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Dec 25, 2011 15:29:03 GMT -5
Sharon When folks ask where you have worshipped previously and the c word used by others and sometimes ourselves comes up it does seems to light a fire in some. Whats reaction is not so unusual. I sometimes have difficulty admitting to being duped for so long. Still love the friends but not the system that uses fear to keep folks obedient. Ken Ken, I can honestly say we never felt fear in the thirty years we were in "the system". I doubt any of the friends who post here feel fear either. That doesn't mean fear or coercion is never used as a tactic; wherever people are given power those kinds of tactics can be used. But I don't see fear being a general way of life among the friends. But anyone who worships with the friends should understand that it's a high commitment, high discipline, and as well, there is a low tolerance for dissent.
|
|
|
Post by kencoolidge on Dec 25, 2011 16:30:34 GMT -5
Sharon When folks ask where you have worshipped previously and the c word used by others and sometimes ourselves comes up it does seems to light a fire in some. Whats reaction is not so unusual. I sometimes have difficulty admitting to being duped for so long. Still love the friends but not the system that uses fear to keep folks obedient. Ken Ken, I can honestly say we never felt fear in the thirty years we were in "the system". I doubt any of the friends who post here feel fear either. That doesn't mean fear or coercion is never used as a tactic; wherever people are given power those kinds of tactics can be used. But I don't see fear being a general way of life among the friends. But anyone who worships with the friends should understand that it's a high commitment, high discipline, and as well, there is a low tolerance for dissent. What You might feel there is no fear in the friends alligiance to the traditions of the F&Ws but I will almost guarantee that most have witnessed what happens to those who dissent. With that in mind there is no room for correction except on the workers part. Something like you are not welcome in meeting if you continue to question workers or defend someone excommunicated. If thats not fear i wonder what is? JMT ken
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Dec 25, 2011 17:01:36 GMT -5
Ken, I can honestly say we never felt fear in the thirty years we were in "the system". I doubt any of the friends who post here feel fear either. That doesn't mean fear or coercion is never used as a tactic; wherever people are given power those kinds of tactics can be used. But I don't see fear being a general way of life among the friends. But anyone who worships with the friends should understand that it's a high commitment, high discipline, and as well, there is a low tolerance for dissent. What You might feel there is no fear in the friends alligiance to the traditions of the F&Ws but I will almost guarantee that most have witnessed what happens to those who dissent. With that in mind there is no room for correction except on the workers part. Something like you are not welcome in meeting if you continue to question workers or defend someone excommunicated. If thats not fear i wonder what is? JMT ken You do have to understand and accept what it's all about. It was quite good for us for a long time. However, there are better ways to do things, no question about that. The main issue I see is for kids who are born into it, who should get a chance to leave if they don't like the "way". I personally did like the discipline involved in many aspects of the lifestyle. I don't see any strong malevolent forces at work, but if you think it is the "only way" that can be a trap for many people. I don't call it a cult, because it really isn't that different from many other conservative churches and lifestyles that one might join.
|
|
|
Post by Linford Bledsoe on Dec 25, 2011 17:09:20 GMT -5
I laughed for an hour watching the different autotune the news videos. Thanks If someone were to record and Autotune The workers . . . . it would humorously reveal to what a great extent sanctimony possesses them. All of us can be guilty of taking ourselves too seriously, whether this is born of ignorance, pride, or unfaced-fears. I agree Lee, there is are many that never come to realize this. My grandfather used to say. "If I could buy you for what you are worth and sell you for what you think your worth. I would never have to work again" A real adult can laugh at themselves louder than anyone.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Dec 25, 2011 17:54:21 GMT -5
If someone were to record and Autotune The workers . . . . it would humorously reveal to what a great extent sanctimony possesses them. All of us can be guilty of taking ourselves too seriously, whether this is born of ignorance, pride, or unfaced-fears. I agree Lee, there is are many that never come to realize this. My grandfather used to say. "If I could buy you for what you are worth and sell you for what you think your worth. I would never have to work again" A real adult can laugh at themselves louder than anyone. That is a good saying to use on the overseers who make and enforce such outlandish rules. If they could step back and see how much they make their group look like a cult, they would get a big laugh at themselves.
|
|
|
Post by irvinegrey on Dec 27, 2011 14:27:45 GMT -5
Egad. Heaven help us. The Impartial Reporter incarnate reviews the friends and workers. Hopefully Irvine Grey will disregard your advice completely but I'm not so sure. He has not been forthcoming with his personal views, so who knows. Jump and dodge whenever asked a direct question. Yes, I know your opinion of Irvine Grey...it became very evident on the first page of the thread...his use of the word "cult" sent you into orbit....which is particularly not like you to be so unreasonable.....I think the question stated on the name of this thread was simply a way of getting "opinions" as well as what others have experienced" I actually feel for IG for he has to sort through and find that which he's knowing he's looking for! Thanks Sharon for your understanding. I am glad that someone has a grasp of the reason behind my question!
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Dec 29, 2011 13:55:43 GMT -5
Yes, I know your opinion of Irvine Grey...it became very evident on the first page of the thread...his use of the word "cult" sent you into orbit....which is particularly not like you to be so unreasonable.....I think the question stated on the name of this thread was simply a way of getting "opinions" as well as what others have experienced" I actually feel for IG for he has to sort through and find that which he's knowing he's looking for! Thanks Sharon for your understanding. I am glad that someone has a grasp of the reason behind my question! I never had a problem with your reasons, although I have nothing more than a superficial idea what those may be. Nor was there a problem with the thread title. The problem, as I stated from the first, was with the religious, archaic definition of the word "cult" that was offered for the purpose of the discussion.
|
|
|
Post by irvinegrey on Dec 29, 2011 17:56:31 GMT -5
Thanks Sharon for your understanding. I am glad that someone has a grasp of the reason behind my question! I never had a problem with your reasons, although I have nothing more than a superficial idea what those may be. Nor was there a problem with the thread title. The problem, as I stated from the first, was with the religious, archaic definition of the word "cult" that was offered for the purpose of the discussion. archaic and relevant are not mutually exclusive! In retrospect I am not sure that there is any definition of the word cult that would meet your approval! Perhaps you would like to write a definition.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Dec 29, 2011 21:47:56 GMT -5
I never had a problem with your reasons, although I have nothing more than a superficial idea what those may be. Nor was there a problem with the thread title. The problem, as I stated from the first, was with the religious, archaic definition of the word "cult" that was offered for the purpose of the discussion. archaic and relevant are not mutually exclusive! In retrospect I am not sure that there is any definition of the word cult that would meet your approval! Perhaps you would like to write a definition. I'm more content with definitions along sociological lines since they are less ethno-centric. But then is it even useful to categorize social dysfunction in such a coarse manner? In any case, I posted my preferred definition in the 3rd or so post on this thread. It comes from www.religioustolerance.org. Here is the link - professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=18360&page=1#432999
|
|
wanda
New Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by wanda on Dec 29, 2011 22:27:46 GMT -5
Yes it is a cult. When there is a dress code and rules there is something wrong - why would God care what people are wearing - surely its the inside that counts.
This is a very restrictive, secretive organisation which discourages openness and honesty. It aims to segregate itself from mainstream society and tells its members they are special.
The workers are the leaders and if you dare to question them or disobey them you are evicted from the church.
Definitely a cult. No questions asked.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Dec 29, 2011 22:35:28 GMT -5
Yes it is a cult. When there is a dress code and rules there is something wrong - why would God care what people are wearing - surely its the inside that counts. Have you read the bible? God certainly seems to care given the amount of text in the bible concerning outward appearance, right down to the amount of foreskin. And these are based on your definitions of a cult? Wow.
|
|
wanda
New Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by wanda on Dec 30, 2011 2:19:15 GMT -5
Ive read the bible - I had it forced down my throat for years! And last time i looked foreskins werent on display it's the women who have to always wear skirts and their hair long - what sort of organisation in this day and age makes their women do that? A cult.
Your patronising tone leaves a lot to be desired. State it how it is. I know it's a cult becuase I lived it for most of my life.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 3:17:29 GMT -5
Wanda, do you believe that Paul's little churches were a cult?
some of Paul's quotes ----
Paul - "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." Paul - "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow..." Paul - "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls..." Paul - "that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety" Paul - "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." Paul - "For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things..." Paul - 'But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." Paul - " Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others..."
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 30, 2011 5:02:59 GMT -5
Wanda, do you believe that Paul's little churches were a cult?some of Paul's quotes ---- Paul - "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." Paul - "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow..." Paul - " Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls..." Paul - "that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety" Paul - "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." Paul - "For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things..." Paul - 'But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." Paul - " Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others..." Removed from a greater and qualifying context of Grace, I would. The most salient definition of a cult to questioning and exiting 2x2's is theological. We are saved by Grace: cults promise and presume to save otherwise. Any secondary and supplementary exceptions and qualifications to the salvation that is by Grace shall be negotiated one and one between buyer and seller, the creator and the created.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 5:21:49 GMT -5
Ever met any free-wheeling, free-loving, dope-smoking, born-again cult members? "Saved by grace" positions don't really define a cult. Lots of definitions of the word "cult" - mine is: any group you don't like.
But upon this point of "cults" Here are some definitions of churches, trending downward in numbers.
Universal church (meaning "catholic") Mainstream church Splinter church Cult or Sect
Jesus' church was called, in our translation, a "sect."
Whatever one you feel is the most offensive, please use it to describe what we are. Remember what Jesus said, "Offenses must come..."
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 30, 2011 6:30:10 GMT -5
Ever met any free-wheeling, free-loving, dope-smoking, born-again cult members? So the free-wheeling, free-loving, dope-smoking meets your definition of being saved by Grace? Please explain from what these delinquents have been saved. "Saved by grace" positions don't really define a cult. Sure they do, the salvation that is by Grace is specific and monomorphic. Lots of definitions of the word "cult" - mine is: any group you don't like. The atheism and relativism of your ecumenicalism is repudiable.
|
|
wanda
New Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by wanda on Dec 30, 2011 6:37:01 GMT -5
A church founded by a man (William Irvine) and run by men (male workers) is going to focus on the verses mentioned by Bert as it reflects a male domination unlike normal society where there is equal opportunity and freedom of speech for both women and men. Women in this organisation are to 'learn in silence with subjection' - is that controlling or what? We were taught that we were NOT saved by Grace - we had to wear the right clothes, appear right on the outside, attend the meetings EVERY week and follow the rules - in other words, saved by WORKS. The word cult isn't necessarily offensive however this organisation cannot handle criticism because they are trained to think their way is perfect and that there could be nothing wrong with it. Brainwashing comes to mind
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 30, 2011 6:55:26 GMT -5
In fact, wherever you have women "learning in silence" . . . . men will be also.
|
|
wanda
New Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by wanda on Dec 30, 2011 7:16:22 GMT -5
However I'm sure the men may take offence at the 'subjection' suggestion!
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 30, 2011 7:17:10 GMT -5
A church founded by a man (William Irvine) and run by men (male workers) is going to focus on the verses mentioned by Bert as it reflects a male domination unlike normal society where there is equal opportunity and freedom of speech for both women and men. Women in this organisation are to 'learn in silence with subjection' - is that controlling or what? We were taught that we were NOT saved by Grace - we had to wear the right clothes, appear right on the outside, attend the meetings EVERY week and follow the rules - in other words, saved by WORKS. The word cult isn't necessarily offensive however this organisation cannot handle criticism because they are trained to think their way is perfect and that there could be nothing wrong with it. Brainwashing comes to mind Concupiscence comes to my mind.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 7:17:54 GMT -5
I am glad you find such terms offensive as I do Saved by Jesus, according to them. No works necessary to demonstrate their belief other than belief and love. They say Paul established Christianity as we know it - is that right? Did men or women run the Apostolic Church? That means, to me in any case, that you listen to the Gospel rather than contend with it, or interject. We preach that people are saved by grace - but something IS required of you. In fact, about 25% of the NT covers these requirements of the Kingdom. You can tell when a church can't handle criticism, it will conform to the standards of its critics. Think about it.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 30, 2011 7:19:46 GMT -5
However I'm sure the men may take offence at the 'subjection' suggestion! They may pretend to. Many men prefer that others should have to take responsibility for them.
|
|
wanda
New Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by wanda on Dec 30, 2011 7:21:28 GMT -5
|
|
wanda
New Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by wanda on Dec 30, 2011 7:31:05 GMT -5
Paul didnt establish this church - and Jesus established Christianity...
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 30, 2011 7:35:26 GMT -5
I am glad you find such terms offensive as I do Saved by Jesus, according to them. No works necessary to demonstrate their belief other than belief and love. Belief and love in what? It makes all the difference! They say Paul established Christianity as we know it - is that right? Who says that? I would think anything Paul advised in good faith was deferential to Jesus (God). No ? Did men or women run the Apostolic Church? From the scriptures, it appears that men and women constituted a foundational relationship to the gospel. That means, to me in any case, that you listen to the Gospel rather than contend with it, or interject. Your holiness . . . Might interaction be permissible? We preach that people are saved by grace - but something IS required of you. In fact, about 25% of the NT covers these requirements of the Kingdom. To express any premeditated behavior as being a "requirement of the Kingdom" is to trample upon the very substance of the gospel! By the same token, a church that can't handle criticism might as easily silence or ignore it's critics!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 7:49:11 GMT -5
Paul didnt establish this church - and Jesus established Christianity... Ok, the theory is that Paul established Christianity. This is a common belief in theology and is called "Pauline Christianity" to separate it from what they believe it could have become had Jesus, or his younger brother James, had lived long enough. Reminds me of the Irvine theory subscribed to by many here. This Pauline theory, like the Irvine theory, has it that Jesus was some lay-back loving guy who was tolerant and hated rules, organizations and hierarchy. By some co-incidence - a modern 2012 guy.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 30, 2011 8:05:21 GMT -5
Paul didnt establish this church - and Jesus established Christianity... Ok, the theory is that Paul established Christianity. This is a common belief in theology and is called "Pauline Christianity" to separate it from what they believe it could have become had Jesus, or his younger brother James, had lived long enough. Reminds me of the Irvine theory subscribed to by many here. This Pauline theory, like the Irvine theory, has it that Jesus was some lay-back loving guy who was tolerant and hated rules, organizations and hierarchy. By some co-incidence - a modern 2012 guy. LOL. Paul gave the best advise anyone could have given, given the particulars he was given! After all, people are only human! I don't think you or me or anyone, however, could convince Paul to conceed one centimeter from his position the elect are SAVED BY GRACE. PERIOD!
|
|