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Post by sharonw on Nov 21, 2011 18:32:06 GMT -5
from whom? Me? Nate? Sharon? StAnne? I have never heard any of the Trinitarians on this board say this. Not all messages are plainly spoken. It's the thoughts behind the words. Especially that we cannot have as close a relationship to God without accepting the Trinity doctrine. Emy, If there is facts, data and or beliefs that enable a person to get to know another more is that not preferable to get to know Jesus like that? How far can a basic knowledge take one in knowing our great God and Saviour? That is an oxymoron there for to believe that we have our great God and Saviour one would have to know the why of the "great" as well as knowing the "why" of the Saviour.....isn't that right? As I said, God knows who can handle what and when and HE DOES REVEAL to those who ask. Did not Jesus tell His disciples that whatsoever they ask in His Name so shall they receive? This isn't natural things He was talking about was it? There's a lot more for any of us to know about our great God and Saviour then any of us will ever know this side of the grave, so every good gift is from God, is it not?
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Post by sharonw on Nov 21, 2011 18:34:48 GMT -5
JO, thanks for your reply. I believe the reason why fewer people go to church (ten percent decline per decade) is because we have a less Godly world. Some people will dress up their failure to attend a church in righteous prose - there is little tolerance for anything religious anymore. We are entering what some Americans call the "post religious age" And it shows in statistics: highest rate of infidelity, divorce, adultery and non-marital relationships in history greatest use of narcotics in history soaring welfare dependency largest number of people under slavery the industrialization of sex and narcotics a growing tide of contempt for public figures and authority soaring violence (even as entertainment) a tidal wave of narcissism, nihilism, suicide and self-hate and some copy and past from earlier work I did from largely Australian statistics... About 47% of children now belong to single parent "families" One third of all Australian teachers plan on quitting their profession because of stress with students. Homeless children have doubled in the past three years Teenage binge drinking doubled in 6 years One quarter of all girls will be sexually assaulted this year 71% increase in sexual violence against children in 9 years. 25% of teenagers have admitted to alcohol abuse. 30.2% of teenagers have sold, consumed or been offered drugs in the past year 9.5% of students have take cocaine in the past year. Children on Care and Protection Orders have risen about 30% in six years. 2008 Queensland figures reveal a 2000% (two thousand) rise in the rate of juvenile sex attacks in less than 10 years. Australian sexual assaults have increased by 20% over the past decade. 25% of Australian children under the age of 14 have had sex. 25% of Australian men who sought DNA confirmation in paternity cases discovered they are not the father. 25% increase in attacks on police and ambulance staff in 8 years . 50% increase in shoplifting 2008-2010. Australia Retail Assoc.. 30% increase in sexual activity and drinking for year 12 girls since 2002. (Australian Research Centre for Sex, Health and Society.) 2500% increase in atheism in 100 years. Three out of five children were exposed to violence, abuse or a criminal victimization in the last year, including 46 percent who had been physically assaulted, 10 percent who had been maltreated by a caregiver, 6 percent who had been sexually victimized, and 10 percent who had witnessed an assault within their family. UNH Crimes against Children Research Center (CCRC) 2009. Was there not a similiar thing about church goers back in the 60's during the hippie regime?
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Post by sharonw on Nov 21, 2011 18:38:16 GMT -5
Good question, and I don't claim to know the answer. I'm not thinking of people who "can't be bothered" attending church. I'm thinking of people who would be involved wholeheartedly if they felt God was in it. The "Jesus-plus" of religious systems is not working for many people. Andrew Strom has an interesting take on it: ============================================= This “Out-of-church” phenomenon has now grown so large that books are being written about it. In fact, several years ago I heard an estimate that there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of such Christians just in our largest city (-Auckland) alone. And I believe it is the same right across the Western nations. I have personally come into contact with literally hundreds of such people. The surprising thing is that they are often the most committed kind of Christians – praying, insightful, deep- thinking. Yet they have grown tired of “playing the game” inside our church system and have opted out. Often their involvement goes back many years. In fact, they had commonly been leaders of various kinds.
But now they have left. Why? The church obviously finds this a very difficult thing to explain or deal with. The usual accusations are often trotted out: “So-and-so has been hurt and has a root of bitterness”. Or they are in “rebellion”. Or they are “not a team player”. Or they are “backsliding”.
But if you talk to these people you will often find that they have been sitting in church for years and years, and they simply cannot stand to sit and watch the same old game being played any more. The LACK OF GOD is what gets to them – even in our most “Spirit-filled” churches. WHERE IS GOD IN ALL OF OUR ACTIVITY? Surely this is not the way it is supposed to be?
New fads and programs come and go, but the mediocrity and LACK OF GOD just seem to go on forever. And so quietly, sometimes without anyone even noticing, they slowly slip out the doors – never to return. Some have even told me that they felt God “calling them out”. Others simply felt they couldn’t stay there anymore. The state of the church weighed upon them more than words could say.jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/12003.htmWow, that resonates. And not only with me I have come to learn. I don't feel this is bad news. The work of God requires trust and open-ness. Intermediation through a church system usually imposes one or another kind of agenda that serves man and not God. It certainly does resonate....it fits exactly what many of the exes have said about leaving the fellowship...some of us feel called out and some of us feel that the couldn't stay there any more whether due to shunning or just change of convictions
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Post by sharonw on Nov 21, 2011 18:39:23 GMT -5
in other words, you don't have to accept what i teach, but if you do not accept it, you will be considered spiritually ignorant! hmmm ;D Sharon sometimes comes across as speaking from the lofty heights, but she never means it that way. Thanks, What...exactly...just trying to share how things are opening up for me AND others who have share with me. Thanks, again.
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Post by sharonw on Nov 21, 2011 18:43:16 GMT -5
JO, thanks for your reply. I believe that the reason why fewer people go to church (ten percent decline per decade) is because we have a less Godly world. Some people will dress up their failure to attend a church in righteous prose - but it really shows there is little tolerance for anything religious anymore. I can understand why you would say that, but at the same there is a great spiritual need out there that religious systems (including ours) are not meeting. Perhaps there was a similar need 110 years ago that early workers saw? Bert, I get the feeling you are looking at the majority of society or the majority of religious people and its giving you a pessimistic view. What if 1% of society was feeling their way towards a closer relationship with God? Wouldn't that amount to a great opportunity? God cares for each individual, and so should we. Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. I think you've said it very close to the mark, JO. It's the lack of "God" in some churches and in others it seems to be the "money this and money that". Taking care of the financial end within the worship service is really horrible.; IMO It would be alright IMO if at the end of the service the financial comes into being taken care of. I understand that sometimes the Sun. a.m. scheduled time is the about the only time a church has the members all together to announce needs to, but I think sensitivity to God would help us all tend to be a bit more careful of taking care of the natural needs within the spiritual worship time.
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Post by sharonw on Nov 21, 2011 18:46:51 GMT -5
[quote author=what board=general thread=18360 post=436910 time=1321912687
While all that is true, I believe those who remain as Christian are finding a deeper relationship with Christ than what we saw 40 or 50 years ago. [/quote]
I also think that those who remain as Christian are more serious about finding that deeper relationship with Christ...whether they go to a church or not. It's an amazing thing to connect with someone who is so stedfastly filled with Christ and they rarely if ever go to church, but it is evident they read, meditate and pray as much if not more then regular church goers. Seems perhaps the more people go to church the less time they do have to work on that deeper relationship with Christ.
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Post by JO on Nov 21, 2011 20:54:15 GMT -5
I also think that those who remain as Christian are more serious about finding that deeper relationship with Christ...whether they go to a church or not. It's an amazing thing to connect with someone who is so stedfastly filled with Christ and they rarely if ever go to church, but it is evident they read, meditate and pray as much if not more then regular church goers. Seems perhaps the more people go to church the less time they do have to work on that deeper relationship with Christ. It could also be that non-churchgoers have no church to put their faith and trust in.
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Post by What Hat on Nov 21, 2011 22:26:03 GMT -5
Wow, that resonates. And not only with me I have come to learn. I don't feel this is bad news. The work of God requires trust and open-ness. Intermediation through a church system usually imposes one or another kind of agenda that serves man and not God. It certainly does resonate....it fits exactly what many of the exes have said about leaving the fellowship...some of us feel called out and some of us feel that the couldn't stay there any more whether due to shunning or just change of convictions Although I meant to include quite a number of individuals young and old who are dissatisfied with church life across the spectrum. Often they don't have anything against their church or ex-church; it just doesn't work for them.
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Post by redeemed on Nov 22, 2011 16:57:14 GMT -5
It certainly does resonate....it fits exactly what many of the exes have said about leaving the fellowship...some of us feel called out and some of us feel that the couldn't stay there any more whether due to shunning or just change of convictions Although I meant to include quite a number of individuals young and old who are dissatisfied with church life across the spectrum. Often they don't have anything against their church or ex-church; it just doesn't work for them. What, reading your posts over the past few weeks you sound like a man with a lot of axes to grind and who has yet to learn that Godliness with contentment is great gain!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2011 17:47:02 GMT -5
Although I meant to include quite a number of individuals young and old who are dissatisfied with church life across the spectrum. Often they don't have anything against their church or ex-church; it just doesn't work for them. What, reading your posts over the past few weeks you sound like a man with a lot of axes to grind and who has yet to learn that Godliness with contentment is great gain! It sounds like you are grinding your own axe on What's head. You don't sound so content yourself with a post like that. Find the nearest mirror and have a good look!
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 22, 2011 18:01:44 GMT -5
What, given your stated dislike for Baptists on this thread I would appreciate your view on the following You Tube clip. I know it has no relevance to this thread but then much of what has been posted here has little relevance to the question asked. www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBAcrDiITJ0&fb_source=message.
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Post by sharonw on Nov 22, 2011 19:31:44 GMT -5
Although I meant to include quite a number of individuals young and old who are dissatisfied with church life across the spectrum. Often they don't have anything against their church or ex-church; it just doesn't work for them. What, reading your posts over the past few weeks you sound like a man with a lot of axes to grind and who has yet to learn that Godliness with contentment is great gain! I suppose if I'd been done like What has been done by the workers/friends I would have some axes to grind as well. In spite of this treatment I find What's attitude about the fellowship is perhaps far more accomodating and pleasant then others might have been if any of us been in What's shoes!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2011 19:48:27 GMT -5
What, reading your posts over the past few weeks you sound like a man with a lot of axes to grind and who has yet to learn that Godliness with contentment is great gain! I suppose if I'd been done like What has been done by the workers/friends I would have some axes to grind as well. In spite of this treatment I find What's attitude about the fellowship is perhaps far more accomodating and pleasant then others might have been if any of us been in What's shoes! I think "redeemed" is referring to grinding axes on the "cult" issue. By doing so, What is actually being very supportive of the fellowship. Redeemed seems to be defending IrvineGrey, if anyone, by using a mild personal attack.
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Post by What Hat on Nov 23, 2011 0:51:34 GMT -5
Although I meant to include quite a number of individuals young and old who are dissatisfied with church life across the spectrum. Often they don't have anything against their church or ex-church; it just doesn't work for them. What, reading your posts over the past few weeks you sound like a man with a lot of axes to grind and who has yet to learn that Godliness with contentment is great gain! You're confusing contentment with submissiveness. Glad somebody reads my posts.
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Post by What Hat on Nov 23, 2011 0:54:42 GMT -5
I suppose if I'd been done like What has been done by the workers/friends I would have some axes to grind as well. In spite of this treatment I find What's attitude about the fellowship is perhaps far more accomodating and pleasant then others might have been if any of us been in What's shoes! I think "redeemed" is referring to grinding axes on the "cult" issue. By doing so, What is actually being very supportive of the fellowship. Redeemed seems to be defending IrvineGrey, if anyone, by using a mild personal attack. Probably another one of those overbearing, self-righteous Baptists. So annoying.
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Post by Happy Feet on Nov 23, 2011 1:07:33 GMT -5
I suppose if I'd been done like What has been done by the workers/friends I would have some axes to grind as well. In spite of this treatment I find What's attitude about the fellowship is perhaps far more accomodating and pleasant then others might have been if any of us been in What's shoes! I think "redeemed" is referring to grinding axes on the "cult" issue. By doing so, What is actually being very supportive of the fellowship. Redeemed seems to be defending IrvineGrey, if anyone, by using a mild personal attack. Interesting, rnstrbnsn/gray goes off and Redeemed comes on. Given that redeemed's email address is allenirvine, one can guess that irvinegray and redeemed are one and the same.
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Post by What Hat on Nov 23, 2011 1:09:20 GMT -5
What, given your stated dislike for Baptists on this thread I would appreciate your view on the following You Tube clip. I know it has no relevance to this thread but then much of what has been posted here has little relevance to the question asked. www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBAcrDiITJ0&fb_source=message. FYI, my wife and I were married in a Baptist church. That went well but the arm-twisting to join the church did not. But on the whole there are many Baptists that I like as individuals, in spite of them being Baptists. Anyway, I did view most of that clip. I did not like the Baptist-bashing and see no need for it. That might seem ironic, but I don't like to see attacks on the basis of theology or religious belief, which is what Paul Washer is doing here. Other than that, the message is good, "if you gave your employer the amount of effort you give to God, would you be able to keep your job?" Good thought that. You may have noticed that he quoted Abraham Kuyper. +1 for Dutch content.
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Post by sharonw on Nov 23, 2011 10:44:24 GMT -5
I also think that those who remain as Christian are more serious about finding that deeper relationship with Christ...whether they go to a church or not. It's an amazing thing to connect with someone who is so stedfastly filled with Christ and they rarely if ever go to church, but it is evident they read, meditate and pray as much if not more then regular church goers. Seems perhaps the more people go to church the less time they do have to work on that deeper relationship with Christ. It could also be that non-churchgoers have no church to put their faith and trust in. This is pretty much correct. A lot of those type of Christians are people who went to church with their folks and some how, some way they learned to not like church for whatever reasons, but they do love Christ. The rest are perhaps those who have been hurt by a church with shunning, gossiping, and out and out excommunication. The last group are likely the group who will NEVER like a church of any kind as it says that an offended brother is hardly won.
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Post by What Hat on Nov 23, 2011 11:43:12 GMT -5
When I explain to those outside the 2x2 movement that I am researching the history, sociology and theology of this movement the question is usually asked, ‘Are they a cult’. Since this is a question I will address in my research I would appreciate the views of those who may support and those who reject the idea that the 2x2 movement is a cult. Well-reasoned and rational comments are what I am after. To help focus your mind I am quoting the following as generally accepted definitions of a cult from writers on the subject: ‘ By the term cult I mean nothing derogatory to any group so classified. A cult, as I define it. Is any religious group which differs significantly in some one or more respects as to belief or practice from those religious groups which are regarded as normative expressions of religion in our total culture. I may also add to this that a cult might also be defined as a group of people gathered about a specific person or person’s misinterpretation of the Bible.’
‘The term is more generally used by evangelicals of groups whose teachings are so heretical as to remain outside historic Christianity’.Apart from asking for clarification from time to time should that be necessary I shall make no other comments. From some of your comments on this thread, I understand that you are sincerely asking this question because others have sincerely asked you this question. I took a few days break to do some reading, and here's my response to the question. I'm going to throw out your "mind-focusing" quote and start directly from the question. Since you say your research is about history, sociology, and theology of the 2x2s, I encourage you to consider how the word "cult" is used in all three of those fields rather than the narrow theological definition you have chosen to limit your analysis.Question: Are they a cult? Response: What are you trying to determine when you ask whether they are a cult? - Are you wondering about how many years the movement has existed? [historical, new religious movement view]
- Are you wondering whether they believe in the Trinity or another specific doctrine? [theological view]
- Are you wondering whether they have a charismatic leader who might convince them to commit mass suicide? [psychological destructive cult view]
- Are you wondering whether they live in communes or reject technology? [sociological view]
- Do they have any unique end times prophecies? [sociological view]
Even though the first part of your quote says it means "nothing derogatory", I think you can probably see from the response on this thread that there is no way to use the "theological" definition of cult in mixed-belief company without being derogatory about someone's beliefs or interpretations of the Bible. If you choose to use Steve Bruce's sociological definition of "cult" in the book Religion in the Modern World: from cathedrals to cults", you'll find that many of the groups (Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Islam) that get classified by your theologians as cults get moved into categories of sect, denomination, or church depending on the geographic location. I ordered Steve Bruce's book from a local library and found that Bruce uses the word cult as defined by the sociologist Roy , which states that cults don't have the trait of exclusivity. In your very next sentence you quote someone who uses a theological definition of a cult based on exclusivity. Are you intending to show support or contrast with your side-by-side usage of two very different definitions of "cult"? I'm glad to hear you have a good relationships with 2x2s in Ireland. I think part of the ballistic response here is that you have stumbled on a word that means different things to different communities. Without body language and verbal intonation, it's easy to misunderstand each other. I'm more interested in history and sociology than theology, so I get frustrated when it looks like you are trying to justify the theological definition of the word cult by saying it's a neutral or benign word in sociology. Despite my frustration with your use of the word "cult", I have to say thanks for pointing me to the Steve Bruce book. I recently read the (non-scholarly) book American Gospel written by the editor of Newsweek magazine Jon Meacham. Though I don't agree with all of his conclusions about the role of "public religion", it got me wondering about the role of religion in American society. The Steve Bruce book has some chapters on religious tolerance and American religion that I can't wait to read. The 2x2s are given as an example of a sect in the book by Steve Bruce. He's got an extra idealized version of how today's workers start preaching and get funded, but I suspect the additional organization would plant the 2x2s even more firmly in the sect category. IrvineGrey, we have not seen any answer to some of the insightful questions posed by 'scholargal' in the above post. For your convenience I will reprise her post here so that you don't have to hunt for it.
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Post by What Hat on Nov 23, 2011 11:44:56 GMT -5
It could also be that non-churchgoers have no church to put their faith and trust in. This is pretty much correct. A lot of those type of Christians are people who went to church with their folks and some how, some way they learned to not like church for whatever reasons, but they do love Christ. The rest are perhaps those who have been hurt by a church with shunning, gossiping, and out and out excommunication. The last group are likely the group who will NEVER like a church of any kind as it says that an offended brother is hardly won. Nor do they need to be won; the people that I know in these two categories are in the church, but they no longer require intermediation by controllers.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 23, 2011 12:09:17 GMT -5
From some of your comments on this thread, I understand that you are sincerely asking this question because others have sincerely asked you this question. I took a few days break to do some reading, and here's my response to the question. I'm going to throw out your "mind-focusing" quote and start directly from the question. Since you say your research is about history, sociology, and theology of the 2x2s, I encourage you to consider how the word "cult" is used in all three of those fields rather than the narrow theological definition you have chosen to limit your analysis.Question: Are they a cult? Response: What are you trying to determine when you ask whether they are a cult? - Are you wondering about how many years the movement has existed? [historical, new religious movement view]
- Are you wondering whether they believe in the Trinity or another specific doctrine? [theological view]
- Are you wondering whether they have a charismatic leader who might convince them to commit mass suicide? [psychological destructive cult view]
- Are you wondering whether they live in communes or reject technology? [sociological view]
- Do they have any unique end times prophecies? [sociological view]
Even though the first part of your quote says it means "nothing derogatory", I think you can probably see from the response on this thread that there is no way to use the "theological" definition of cult in mixed-belief company without being derogatory about someone's beliefs or interpretations of the Bible. If you choose to use Steve Bruce's sociological definition of "cult" in the book Religion in the Modern World: from cathedrals to cults", you'll find that many of the groups (Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Islam) that get classified by your theologians as cults get moved into categories of sect, denomination, or church depending on the geographic location. I ordered Steve Bruce's book from a local library and found that Bruce uses the word cult as defined by the sociologist Roy , which states that cults don't have the trait of exclusivity. In your very next sentence you quote someone who uses a theological definition of a cult based on exclusivity. Are you intending to show support or contrast with your side-by-side usage of two very different definitions of "cult"? I'm glad to hear you have a good relationships with 2x2s in Ireland. I think part of the ballistic response here is that you have stumbled on a word that means different things to different communities. Without body language and verbal intonation, it's easy to misunderstand each other. I'm more interested in history and sociology than theology, so I get frustrated when it looks like you are trying to justify the theological definition of the word cult by saying it's a neutral or benign word in sociology. Despite my frustration with your use of the word "cult", I have to say thanks for pointing me to the Steve Bruce book. I recently read the (non-scholarly) book American Gospel written by the editor of Newsweek magazine Jon Meacham. Though I don't agree with all of his conclusions about the role of "public religion", it got me wondering about the role of religion in American society. The Steve Bruce book has some chapters on religious tolerance and American religion that I can't wait to read. The 2x2s are given as an example of a sect in the book by Steve Bruce. He's got an extra idealized version of how today's workers start preaching and get funded, but I suspect the additional organization would plant the 2x2s even more firmly in the sect category. IrvineGrey, we have not seen any answer to some of the insightful questions posed by 'scholargal' in the above post. For your convenience I will reprise her post here so that you don't have to hunt for it. My dear What, as you know I have been away on holiday and saw or read very little of TMB when away but did reply to the occassional pm. Back to a mountain of work and will try to catch up eventually. After ten days basking in the sun of the Gran Canaria it is kind of hard to get back to the drawing board. I did manage to get out last night to the local 2x2 mission. I was particularly touched when they sang hymn 29 that I learned as a child from my grandfather who professed in 1935.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2011 19:06:04 GMT -5
I did manage to get out last night to the local 2x2 mission. I was particularly touched when they sang hymn 29 that I learned as a child from my grandfather who professed in 1935. God's word is so pure and so precious to me, his precepts I love and adore....one of my favorites and the one my Mom wants sung at her funeral. You have good taste in hymns~
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Post by What Hat on Nov 23, 2011 20:21:22 GMT -5
IrvineGrey, we have not seen any answer to some of the insightful questions posed by 'scholargal' in the above post. For your convenience I will reprise her post here so that you don't have to hunt for it. My dear What, as you know I have been away on holiday and saw or read very little of TMB when away but did reply to the occassional pm. Back to a mountain of work and will try to catch up eventually. After ten days basking in the sun of the Gran Canaria it is kind of hard to get back to the drawing board. I did manage to get out last night to the local 2x2 mission. I was particularly touched when they sang hymn 29 that I learned as a child from my grandfather who professed in 1935. Gee, "eventually" doesn't sound too promising. So far, you have made a number of very general comments about my posts, and a number of copy-pastes of theological definitions and ideas which you claim have nothing to do with you. (That is, you stated, "I am not endorsing this definition just as I have not endorsed any of the previous definitions I have posted.") Will the real Irvine Grey stand up and be counted at some point and tell us what he actually thinks?
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Post by sharonw on Nov 23, 2011 22:03:52 GMT -5
This is pretty much correct. A lot of those type of Christians are people who went to church with their folks and some how, some way they learned to not like church for whatever reasons, but they do love Christ. The rest are perhaps those who have been hurt by a church with shunning, gossiping, and out and out excommunication. The last group are likely the group who will NEVER like a church of any kind as it says that an offended brother is hardly won. Nor do they need to be won; the people that I know in these two categories are in the church, but they no longer require intermediation by controllers. Ever since this past spring when new elders and deacons were appointed to the church's directors or board of director...the first mtg. with old and new alike the increasing of the youth minister's salary was brought up....there was ONE WOMAN who stood up and started the biggest defensive ya-ya against the increase and it wasn't long until every one was quite undone...I sit close to the youth minister and I looked over at him once and the pain in that young man's face would tear anybody's heart out. After about 30 mins. of the women having their say so(And no, Rational I wasn't in the discussion) one older church member stood up and ask all to reconsider their ideas and their hanging onto of things very carefully for the church had suffered a split back in 1996 over a similiar issue. A couple weeks later I got the newsletter from the church and the youth minister's name was gone off of the "staff" registry. I've had a hard time having the right desire to go back to that church simply because ONE WOMAN started WW3 . I can fully understand why Paul said for the women to keep silent in the meeting and learn at home with their husbands. This episode made a believer of me. I told them to take me off any deacon/elder list for I was not worthy or able. For the short of the story, our organist quit also this summer. Just the other day I finally asked her where she and her husband were going...well she told me that quite a few members have left the church and are having a small mtg. in an office building. I think one of the persons owns the office. She asked me to come and she said she needed someone to take the lead in the singing because it was kind of hard to do that and play the organ/piano. I haven't been, but think I'll give them a try this next Sun. if I'm okay. The youth minister and another young minister are preaching every other Sun. and often have guest ministers as well. It sounds like the little gathering is growing quite well.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 24, 2011 3:05:21 GMT -5
My dear What, as you know I have been away on holiday and saw or read very little of TMB when away but did reply to the occassional pm. Back to a mountain of work and will try to catch up eventually. After ten days basking in the sun of the Gran Canaria it is kind of hard to get back to the drawing board. I did manage to get out last night to the local 2x2 mission. I was particularly touched when they sang hymn 29 that I learned as a child from my grandfather who professed in 1935. Gee, "eventually" doesn't sound too promising. So far, you have made a number of very general comments about my posts, and a number of copy-pastes of theological definitions and ideas which you claim have nothing to do with you. (That is, you stated, "I am not endorsing this definition just as I have not endorsed any of the previous definitions I have posted.") Will the real Irvine Grey stand up and be counted at some point and tell us what he actually thinks? I am afraid you will just have to wait for my final thesis and then it will not be what I think but the conclusions I come to as a result of my research.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2011 3:27:23 GMT -5
Nor do they need to be won; the people that I know in these two categories are in the church, but they no longer require intermediation by controllers. Ever since this past spring when new elders and deacons were appointed to the church's directors or board of director...the first mtg. with old and new alike the increasing of the youth minister's salary was brought up....there was ONE WOMAN who stood up and started the biggest defensive ya-ya against the increase and it wasn't long until every one was quite undone...I sit close to the youth minister and I looked over at him once and the pain in that young man's face would tear anybody's heart out. After about 30 mins. of the women having their say so(And no, Rational I wasn't in the discussion) one older church member stood up and ask all to reconsider their ideas and their hanging onto of things very carefully for the church had suffered a split back in 1996 over a similiar issue. A couple weeks later I got the newsletter from the church and the youth minister's name was gone off of the "staff" registry. I've had a hard time having the right desire to go back to that church simply because ONE WOMAN started WW3 . I can fully understand why Paul said for the women to keep silent in the meeting and learn at home with their husbands. This episode made a believer of me. I told them to take me off any deacon/elder list for I was not worthy or able. For the short of the story, our organist quit also this summer. Just the other day I finally asked her where she and her husband were going...well she told me that quite a few members have left the church and are having a small mtg. in an office building. I think one of the persons owns the office. She asked me to come and she said she needed someone to take the lead in the singing because it was kind of hard to do that and play the organ/piano. I haven't been, but think I'll give them a try this next Sun. if I'm okay. The youth minister and another young minister are preaching every other Sun. and often have guest ministers as well. It sounds like the little gathering is growing quite well. Just a thought Sharonw -- I don't think that females have any kind of monopoly on being long winded and irrational at times. So if "keep silent in the church" is going to be applied to every catagory of people who can be unreasonable -- soon it will an extremely silent church!!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2011 8:45:52 GMT -5
I agree Edgar.
We can get caught in a logical trap there. When one nutty woman speaks up, we think of the verse about women being silent in the church and want to silence all women. When one nutty man speaks up, we deal with him individually because the bible doesn't tell us that men, nutty or not, should be silenced in the church.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2011 9:06:41 GMT -5
Re: Women keeping silence in church.
Many women had prominent roles in the foundation church. Some were possibly preaching and holding positions of authority. What Paul most likely was referring to was some women who spoke out of place in church gatherings.
You have to observe Mediterranean cultures to understand how women often speak.
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