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Post by sharonw on Nov 19, 2011 20:03:44 GMT -5
Writing on the Characteristics of Cults in Handbook of Today's Religions, Josh McDowell and Don Stewart states: 'One teaching that is totally absent from all cults is the gospel of the grace of God. No one is taught in the cults that he can be saved from eternal damnation by simply placing his faith in Jesus Christ. It is always belief in Jesus Christ and “do this” or “follow that.” All cults attach something to the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. It might be baptism, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, or something else but it is never taught that faith in Christ alone can save anyone.' Why am I not surprised? Here is the methodology of differentiating and marginalizing churches with which you disagree. You define cults to be those groups that depart from the main, and do not teach properly redemption through faith in Jesus Christ. Then you closely examine these "cults" and not surprisingly you find that they do not teach redemption through faith in Jesus Christ. What it only makes sense that sects of religion departing from the main sects of religion WILL necessarily strive with emphasis to BE different in what they teach...whether it is wrong or right, it may take time to know! WI was a strong adversary against the established churches in his day and it has stayed pretty strong all through the life of the fellowship. Is that really harmful? Seems it sure has kept some folks still yet carnal and unable for the meat of the word. Reading incomprehensions and strong adversions to things perceived as being heretical doctrines....under the reality that the bible does teach them.
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Post by kiwi on Nov 19, 2011 21:49:05 GMT -5
Irvine, I am not sure if the 2x2 movement is a honkytonk or a hoedown, but on here it truly is a Whooptydoo. Like this? And of course you would.
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Post by sharonw on Nov 19, 2011 21:56:43 GMT -5
Like this? And of course you would. I think you're not even interpreting this right!
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Post by What Hat on Nov 19, 2011 22:59:06 GMT -5
Why am I not surprised? Here is the methodology of differentiating and marginalizing churches with which you disagree. You define cults to be those groups that depart from the main, and do not teach properly redemption through faith in Jesus Christ. Then you closely examine these "cults" and not surprisingly you find that they do not teach redemption through faith in Jesus Christ. What it only makes sense that sects of religion departing from the main sects of religion WILL necessarily strive with emphasis to BE different in what they teach...whether it is wrong or right, it may take time to know! WI was a strong adversary against the established churches in his day and it has stayed pretty strong all through the life of the fellowship. Is that really harmful? Seems it sure has kept some folks still yet carnal and unable for the meat of the word. Reading incomprehensions and strong adversions to things perceived as being heretical doctrines....under the reality that the bible does teach them. I don't think that all non-mainstream Christian groups, sometimes referred to as "cults" by the mainstream-ers, are trying to be different just for the sake of being different. Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups have a belief system in their own right. It's the mainstream-ers that try to make them look and sound "different", "out there", "cults". And that's because they want to limit attrition as much as they can.
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Post by JO on Nov 19, 2011 23:43:09 GMT -5
Writing on the Characteristics of Cults in Handbook of Today's Religions, Josh McDowell and Don Stewart states: 'One teaching that is totally absent from all cults is the gospel of the grace of God. No one is taught in the cults that he can be saved from eternal damnation by simply placing his faith in Jesus Christ. It is always belief in Jesus Christ and “do this” or “follow that.” All cults attach something to the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. It might be baptism, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, or something else but it is never taught that faith in Christ alone can save anyone.' Totally agree we are saved by grace through faith - salvation totally undeserved and can't be earned. Titus 2 v11 and 12 "for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that , denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly , righteously, and godly , in this present world " Very good teaching in those 2 verses taken together, I think. So was Paul a preacher in a cult? Like Jesus, he wasn't so much into promoting the main stream. ================================================== Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
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Post by rational on Nov 20, 2011 0:30:53 GMT -5
Writing on the Characteristics of Cults in Handbook of Today's Religions, Josh McDowell and Don Stewart states: 'One teaching that is totally absent from all cults is the gospel of the grace of God. No one is taught in the cults that he can be saved from eternal damnation by simply placing his faith in Jesus Christ. It is always belief in Jesus Christ and “do this” or “follow that.” All cults attach something to the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. It might be baptism, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, or something else but it is never taught that faith in Christ alone can save anyone.' You do realize that this makes the largest christian denomination, the Catholic church, a cult.
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Post by quizzer on Nov 20, 2011 0:41:43 GMT -5
Writing on the Characteristics of Cults in Handbook of Today's Religions, Josh McDowell and Don Stewart states: 'One teaching that is totally absent from all cults is the gospel of the grace of God. No one is taught in the cults that he can be saved from eternal damnation by simply placing his faith in Jesus Christ. It is always belief in Jesus Christ and “do this” or “follow that.” All cults attach something to the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. It might be baptism, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, or something else but it is never taught that faith in Christ alone can save anyone.' We've referred to that as the "Jesus-plus" experience on TMB. Basically, you add stuff to Christ and then the stuff becomes more important than Christ. I'm thinking this was the inspiration for at least one TMB poster's name.
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Post by JO on Nov 20, 2011 3:23:43 GMT -5
The Athanasian creed is a "Jesus Plus" doctrine from around 500AD:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
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Post by Lee on Nov 20, 2011 7:16:51 GMT -5
Obviously you believe you are in possession of a theology superior to others. Can you articulate it in a concise, doctrinal expository fashion yet? Join my club of the expectant beggers or shoot straight, I tell you. I'm not sure what would lead you to think that. I see theology itself as a very circumscribed, limited form of understanding that nonetheless has invited and incited people all the way to bloodshed, slaughter and ruin. Theology is primarily of interest when one takes an exerior view either within the context of history and human behaviour, or within the context of ideology and language. In itself it serves little purpose. I think what you're saying is that you don't believe there are any other sources of revealed truth but that which may proceed from ourselves. And it is within the context of ideology and language that I place Grey's definition of 'cult'. It is simply a part of the battle of ideologies; Grey's ideology versus that of the friends and workers.
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Post by Lee on Nov 20, 2011 7:31:28 GMT -5
Theologically: Yes 1) All vagueness aside, the "critical mass" of their words and behaviors indicate they believe Christians are neither saved nor that Christianity is a saving institution. 2) They depreciate and insult the doctrine of Jesus Christ, grace, and election by compulsively measuring their salvation against their behavior, not by persevering in Divine redemption. Spiritually: Yes The 2x2 are hostile to philosophical approaches to the Christianity and attempt to reconcile the contradictions of their faith with wild dualities and irrationalisms Sociologically: No The 2x2 isn't so immediately dangerous to human life to warrant this label.
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 20, 2011 7:49:19 GMT -5
Writing on the Characteristics of Cults in Handbook of Today's Religions, Josh McDowell and Don Stewart states: 'One teaching that is totally absent from all cults is the gospel of the grace of God. No one is taught in the cults that he can be saved from eternal damnation by simply placing his faith in Jesus Christ. It is always belief in Jesus Christ and “do this” or “follow that.” All cults attach something to the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. It might be baptism, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, or something else but it is never taught that faith in Christ alone can save anyone.' ' He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved' - Jesus, Mark 16. Irvine, I hope that your posting of this man's words is not necessarily an endorsement of such. Jesus taught that baptism was necessary. Would you, a professing Christian, call him a cult leader? Jadetree please be assured I am not endorsing this definition just as I have not endorsed any of the previous definitions I have posted. I am simply throwing these out so as to get a response to the question 'Is the 2x2 movement a cult?'
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Post by kencoolidge on Nov 20, 2011 8:03:54 GMT -5
Writing on the Characteristics of Cults in Handbook of Today's Religions, Josh McDowell and Don Stewart states: 'One teaching that is totally absent from all cults is the gospel of the grace of God. No one is taught in the cults that he can be saved from eternal damnation by simply placing his faith in Jesus Christ. It is always belief in Jesus Christ and “do this” or “follow that.” All cults attach something to the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. It might be baptism, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, or something else but it is never taught that faith in Christ alone can save anyone.' ' He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved' - Jesus, Mark 16. Irvine, I hope that your posting of this man's words is not necessarily an endorsement of such. Jesus taught that baptism was necessary. Would you, a professing Christian, call him a cult leader? Jadetree Where and what verse did Jesus teach that. In my old age I can't remember that. ken
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 20, 2011 20:23:59 GMT -5
Thanks again, Cherie... IF the readers on TMB want to see what IS known about the rift between JC and GW, scroll on down on the above website page....there are copies of the workers' meeting that discussed the apologies of GW and JC to each other and the workers all vowing that that was the end of the rift! Nothing was mentioned other than grave differences in belief in doctrine.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2011 22:50:22 GMT -5
(2) Accounts of Geo Walker Coming to AmericaThanks again, Cherie... IF the readers on TMB want to see what IS known about the rift between JC and GW, scroll on down on the above website page....there are copies of the workers' meeting that discussed the apologies of GW and JC to each other and the workers all vowing that that was the end of the rift! Nothing was mentioned other than grave differences in belief in doctrine. I think it is preferable to regard it as doctrinal differences. There was personal conflict between the men as well--but I can understand why it wouldn't be in the written record and I think it is the wise choice to let that die with them. I agree. If there is no benefit to the living, why dig up the dead?
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Post by fred on Nov 20, 2011 23:13:36 GMT -5
Sometimes it is necessary to "dig up the dead" to find a cure for what ails the living.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2011 0:54:41 GMT -5
Sometimes it is necessary to "dig up the dead" to find a cure for what ails the living. As I said, if there is no benefit to the living, don't dig up the dead. So, if someone thinks that a personal or doctrinal quarrel between two long dead mean might affect their salvation, then keep digging.
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Post by What Hat on Nov 21, 2011 2:12:25 GMT -5
Writing on the Characteristics of Cults in Handbook of Today's Religions, Josh McDowell and Don Stewart states: 'One teaching that is totally absent from all cults is the gospel of the grace of God. No one is taught in the cults that he can be saved from eternal damnation by simply placing his faith in Jesus Christ. It is always belief in Jesus Christ and “do this” or “follow that.” All cults attach something to the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. It might be baptism, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, or something else but it is never taught that faith in Christ alone can save anyone.' We've referred to that as the "Jesus-plus" experience on TMB. Basically, you add stuff to Christ and then the stuff becomes more important than Christ. I'm thinking this was the inspiration for at least one TMB poster's name. We have to be a bit careful with Jesus-plus. Most churches add something to the idea of faith in Jesus, but they'll tell you it's the life of Jesus lived out in you. Faith without works is dead. The problem arises when there is a specific agenda or expectation to the works aspect of the Christian life. I was taught or told that there was no specific agenda among the friends. Is there one? Probably in the minds of some people, and that gives them the privilege of being judgmental. I can't think of a church that doesn't add something though, sect, cult or mainstream. Most churches require a highly dogmatic and doctrinal view of Christ which they call the Trinity doctrine. So salvation = faith in Jesus + belief in Trinity dogma. I guess they are all cults, eh, Irvine?
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Post by JO on Nov 21, 2011 2:25:13 GMT -5
Basically, you add stuff to Christ and then the stuff becomes more important than Christ. I'm thinking this was the inspiration for at least one TMB poster's name. Thats very perceptive of you Quizzer...
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Post by JO on Nov 21, 2011 2:28:07 GMT -5
We have to be a bit careful with Jesus-plus. Most churches add something to the idea of faith in Jesus, but they'll tell you it's the life of Jesus lived out in you. Faith without works is dead. The problem arises when there is a specific agenda or expectation to the works aspect of the Christian life. I was taught or told that there was no specific agenda among the friends. Is there one? Probably in the minds of some people, and that gives them the privilege of being judgmental. I can't think of a church that doesn't add something though, sect, cult or mainstream. Most churches require a highly dogmatic and doctrinal view of Christ which they call the Trinity doctrine. So salvation = faith in Jesus + belief in Trinity dogma. I guess they are all cults, eh, Irvine? Large numbers of Christians around the world are disillusioned with religious systems, all of which add something to the simplicity that is in Christ.
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Post by Happy Feet on Nov 21, 2011 2:57:57 GMT -5
I'm not disillusioned with church, if that is what you call a religious system. I love it!!
Religion like the pharisees or religion like Jesus? If it is Jesus, again I love it, if it is a one way church meaning we are the way and all other churches are wrong then I don't like it. It bring us into religious bondage. To some even worshiping Jesus is religious bondage - but a good church is just that - good.
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Post by fred on Nov 21, 2011 6:26:13 GMT -5
I wasn't thinking of matters of salvation - rather the healing of the wound in our fellowship.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2011 7:32:54 GMT -5
JO, you think it is the "simplicity in Christ" these people are thinking of when they no longer attend churches?
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Post by sharonw on Nov 21, 2011 8:37:35 GMT -5
We've referred to that as the "Jesus-plus" experience on TMB. Basically, you add stuff to Christ and then the stuff becomes more important than Christ. I'm thinking this was the inspiration for at least one TMB poster's name. We have to be a bit careful with Jesus-plus. Most churches add something to the idea of faith in Jesus, but they'll tell you it's the life of Jesus lived out in you. Faith without works is dead. The problem arises when there is a specific agenda or expectation to the works aspect of the Christian life. I was taught or told that there was no specific agenda among the friends. Is there one? Probably in the minds of some people, and that gives them the privilege of being judgmental. I can't think of a church that doesn't add something though, sect, cult or mainstream. Most churches require a highly dogmatic and doctrinal view of Christ which they call the Trinity doctrine. So salvation = faith in Jesus + belief in Trinity dogma. I guess they are all cults, eh, Irvine? As I've said before, the Trinity concept is not absolutely necessary for a person's salvation.....but at the same time it sure helps one know their beloved Saviour more and that alone induces more worship and love in that person toward our Saviour. It's kind of like a kid can go to school and do all the homework that is assigned but if that kid does not understand that utilizing that schoolwork or seeing where it could be used, just goes through school passing only by a breeze, whereas those who really get into their schoolwork, they've retained much for the rest of their life's needs. JMO
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Post by sharonw on Nov 21, 2011 8:39:54 GMT -5
I'm not disillusioned with church, if that is what you call a religious system. I love it!! Religion like the pharisees or religion like Jesus? If it is Jesus, again I love it, if it is a one way church meaning we are the way and all other churches are wrong then I don't like it. It bring us into religious bondage. To some even worshiping Jesus is religious bondage - but a good church is just that - good. I kind of feel that a "church" is about as useful as the members want to make it and who it really profits. I've thought the same thing about hospitals and medical institutions it is as good as those who staff it and who the staff wants to profit.
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Post by Lee on Nov 21, 2011 10:22:21 GMT -5
I just want to know if the thread by this title will go on as long as the last one
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Post by Lee on Nov 21, 2011 10:23:18 GMT -5
What have you really nothing new to add or do you just enjoy regurgitating the same words with maybe a mild alteration? I am almost certain that if I read back over the posts on this thread I would find many of your vain repititions! I just respond to the posts one at a time, Irvine. Sometimes new posters come late into the thread, or I haven't expressed myself clearly the first time and clarification is warranted. Stick around long enough and you too may feel like a hamster. I didn't get to 9200+ posts by coming up with something new and original every time. LOL
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Post by 2 on Nov 21, 2011 12:37:23 GMT -5
As I've said before, the Trinity concept is not absolutely necessary for a person's salvation.....but at the same time it sure helps one know their beloved Saviour more and that alone induces more worship and love in that person toward our Saviour. It's kind of like a kid can go to school and do all the homework that is assigned but if that kid does not understand that utilizing that schoolwork or seeing where it could be used, just goes through school passing only by a breeze, whereas those who really get into their schoolwork, they've retained much for the rest of their life's needs. JMO in other words, you don't have to accept what i teach, but if you do not accept it, you will be considered spiritually ignorant! hmmm ;D
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Post by JO on Nov 21, 2011 13:32:03 GMT -5
As I've said before, the Trinity concept is not absolutely necessary for a person's salvation.....but at the same time it sure helps one know their beloved Saviour more and that alone induces more worship and love in that person toward our Saviour. It's kind of like a kid can go to school and do all the homework that is assigned but if that kid does not understand that utilizing that schoolwork or seeing where it could be used, just goes through school passing only by a breeze, whereas those who really get into their schoolwork, they've retained much for the rest of their life's needs. JMO in other words, you don't have to accept what i teach, but if you do not accept it, you will be considered spiritually ignorant! hmmm ;D Trinitarians seem sure that it was God who taught them about it. I wonder why God needs the aid of books and training courses and creeds to wash a trinitarian mindset into people's brains?
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