|
|
Post by ex tassie on Oct 28, 2011 5:41:49 GMT -5
Hi Angelina Mouse,
As a ex tassie our family has been hurt as well by their gossip and lies, and we know plenty of other tassie people that have been hurt in the same way.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wil flower on Oct 28, 2011 6:33:28 GMT -5
Hey , you go girl. Well we all know that once trust is broken you cant get it back. If there is no trust then there is no love. The so called truth, meetings are dead in the water.
When will people finally see that?
There is freedom for all those that escape the two by twos. No matter how guilty they make you feel and Attending a church three times a week is not going to save your spirit. The mind games that make you feel like s*** and how they say that you will go to hell. Well just who will be hell.? Surely EB for sure. Those people that dont go to church but have the right spirit and read their bible and pray every day, they are the ones that will be saved , not the lying so called two by twos. The meetings are a farce, just BS.
It just takes people a long time to break free, but once you do it life is great. It is the true children of god that leave such a cult and live a normal life. all of the two by twos have serious pychological problems. Many committing suicide.
|
|
|
|
Post by sacre cowd on Oct 28, 2011 6:39:25 GMT -5
hey Angelina mouse, I am sacre cowd, not sacred cow. And yes my parents are still professing actually in NT. I used to visit an aunt in Vic every year for colac convention. I have stories that would make you sick about what many of the workers are capable of doing. I know from what I have seen. SICK SICK
|
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 28, 2011 8:00:25 GMT -5
hey Angelina mouse, I am sacre cowd, not sacred cow. And yes my parents are still professing actually in NT. I used to visit an aunt in Vic every year for colac convention. I have stories that would make you sick about what many of the workers are capable of doing. I know from what I have seen. SICK SICK I have no doubt that there are a multitude of problems and transgressions but when you post statements like: all of the two by twos have serious pychological problems. and Many committing suicide. it calls your honesty/veracity into question. I doubt you can support either of these statements. |
|
|
|
Post by NO on Oct 28, 2011 11:25:11 GMT -5
I have no doubt that there are a multitude of problems and transgressions but when you post statements like: I doubt you can refute these statements other then using your obvious bias. hey Angelina mouse, I am sacre cowd, not sacred cow. And yes my parents are still professing actually in NT. I used to visit an aunt in Vic every year for colac convention. I have stories that would make you sick about what many of the workers are capable of doing. I know from what I have seen. SICK SICK I have no doubt that there are a multitude of problems and transgressions but when you post statements like: all of the two by twos have serious pychological problems. and Many committing suicide. it calls your honesty/veracity into question. I doubt you can support either of these statements. |
|
|
|
Post by exVic on Oct 28, 2011 18:58:53 GMT -5
The rumor mill in Vic/TAS is a powerful means of control by some. I suspect those who run and control the rumor mill (by starting the rumors) may well be covering up their own sins.
|
|
|
|
Post by Alistair Henderson on Oct 28, 2011 21:13:37 GMT -5
Rational and others This whole saga is very sad. It just demonstrates that human nature, unrestrained, is pretty much the same, whether in the 'meetings'or out of them.  The deleterious effects of disfunctional behaviour (aka CSA and other interpersonal sin) are often long-lasting and extreme. Perhaps not surprisingly, people's (especially the victims') responses to what has happened can at times come across as 'únreasonable ' in others' eyes, in particular if people have no direct experience of those particular sins having been done to them. While I do not agree with generalisations about any group, let alone every member of that group (as everyone's life experience and exposure to problems will be different), I hear such comments as a cry of deep pain, anguish and even outrage. This can be because of the apparent indifference or slowness to act both of those in authority and the rank and file who in some cases aid and abet continuing sinful behaviour by pretending that it doesn't or can't exist in their group. When the victim has spent enough time being blamed, they might just bite back! People who post on here are often crying out in pain and how they express that pain will often be in strong terms. Deep emotional pain is not just something for your dispassionate analysis to dismiss or ignore, Rational. Have you never in your life cried out in inchoate pain about some major injustice or damage to yourself or those you love, or even people in the world that you might just feel some empathy for? Having said all that, my own conviction is that the essential basis of Christianity is that the Perfect One died for all those who would place their trust in Him alone as their salvation, not depending on their own works or associations to justify them before God.  He rose from the dead and lives and intercedes for us, and we seek to live for him, guided by the Holy Spirit, conscience, experience and godly relationships. And of course we can build Christian character from every experience, association or challenge we face, depending on our 'ability to respond' intentionally and constructively to what happens to us. However deep pain needs time to heal, and above all, it needs to be acknowledged.  The hurt and emotional and psychological damage can linger long after events and patterns of behaviour that have affected one, including CSA and its particularly insidious effects not only on victims, but their families continuing into the next generations. My heart goes out to all such, as several people close to me in my life have suffered those behaviours from trusted friends and workers. As an 'éx' who has attended another church for 11 years, I am more convinced than ever that the individual relationship with God is the ' crux ' (cross) of the matter. Fellowship with like-minded individuals can occur in the meetings where there is mutual respect and support, also in another healthy bible-based church setting or in a family faith environment or in any ' únaffiliated' Christian network (i.e. on-line or down at the local cafe). Groups are just that, a convenient grouping of people with sufficiently shared views on belief and 'how things should be done', not the main game at all. So anyway, I just wanted to try and offer a balanced perspective on this very painful subject. I pray that people of good will and right intent, guided by a conviction for healing and justice, will act as they can and should to address these issues. I pray for vindication, healing, recovery and peace for the victims, and also the ability to move on and live fulfilled lives in the future. I also pray for realisation by perptrators and their enablers about the seriousness of these crimes, but also for sincere repentance, accompanied by God's forgiveness (which we all need), inner healing and transformation, and maybe, God willing , ultimate reconciliation of all parties. But not by denying the truth... Alistair Henderson |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2011 22:25:42 GMT -5
Alistair, your post is spot on, great work. I agree the individual relationship with God, is the crux of the matter. That keeps our feet on the right path. Many thanks for your thoughts.
|
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Oct 30, 2011 12:06:26 GMT -5
I don't see redback as actually supporting EB, but rather making the error of assessing others by his own personal experience rather than examining all the possibilities. While it is true the sex drive declines in men as they age, it starts at a unique level for each man and it declines at varying rates for various reasons. So while it is possible for a sex offender to be rendered impotent by their 70's, it is by no means a certainty, nor even a high likelihood. The other aspect is that many sex crimes are not only about sex but often primarily about control and dominance. That doesn't necessarily decline with age either. If a multiple offender is 75, healthy, and running around amongst children, beware. It's my understanding that men don't have to have an erection to sexually molest children! There are many ways they can get their jollies while molesting children! Often times men who cannot get a stand, will force someone to do things I don't want to say just so they can see if they can get a stand like that. Sorry folks but this is something apparently some like redback are not considering. but old men can get their jollies because molesting children is not about sex...not really. It's like rape in any case, it is getting one's jollies because of the control that such behaviour has over another person. |
|
Shosho
Junior Member
NEVER JUDGE ANOTHER!!! Remember the prophet Hosea? (Hosea 1:2)
Posts: 180
|
Post by Shosho on Oct 30, 2011 19:31:35 GMT -5
Sharon, you are correct. Older men who commit CSA are about abuse of power, and control over helpless victims. I personally know whereof I speak in this. My first abuser has been dead for about 20 years now, and as he grew older his abusiveness became more violent. It was a known fact that he was impotent after a surgical procedure, but this seemed to make him more frustrated perhaps, which led to greater sexual violence against his victims.
The damage these people do to us is incomprehensible, and even after years of therapy, various life experiences bring sometimes shockingly overwhelming reactions. In my own family, I'm not sure which damage was the greatest. The actual sexual violence against me as a child, or the fact that despite having told my mother, she did nothing except to tell me to stay away from the man.
My brother was likewise sexually assaulted by a brother worker, who was charged last year (as an exworker, but still "heartily professing" pervert), in the US. When he told my mother, she cautioned him not to say anything to anyone, because the overseer at the time (Andrew Abernathy) had already proven his willingness to send families home from convention for much less. She assured us both that since we were "unprofessing children", the workers would not only disbelieve us, but would persecute the entire family.
Who knows if this was a real possibility, or if it was part of her own problem, stemming from CSA in HER childhood. Either way, having our parent choose workers of the most despicable sort, over her own children has left us both with life long issues. Last year, when GS was arrested, my brother had a psych breakdown.
My greatest struggle is to feel worthy of being loved, and to that end, I'm eternally grateful that our Father, Whose Name IS LOVE can fill my soul with Peace, when no human can offer true comfort.
Sorry for the flood... I only started to agree with Sharon, but it's an overwhelming topic for me.
|
|
cooee
Junior Member
Posts: 69 
|
Post by cooee on Oct 30, 2011 22:40:06 GMT -5
Regarding reply 133.
Hi TS, good to see you on this thread.
I’m not sure we can say that the worker Ernie Barry, who left the work in disgrace, has been more favourably treated in terms of the payout granted by the overseer, as compared to a worker leaving by his or her own choice and without a dark cloud over his or her head.
The friends give money to the workers and some leave their estates to the work, without any caveat or accounting procedures being in place.
The Vic / Tas overseer has a large amount of funds held in trust and administered by three trustees but available to him at his total discretion. On Cherie’s website there is a copy of sworn testimony taken by Victoria Police from the late Evan Jones, previous overseer of Victoria / Tasmania describing this fact.
Of course there is a new overseer and maybe the trustees have changed, but the general arrangement is certainly still in place.
It is clear from observation that when workers leave the work, some payment of funds from the trust is made to these departing workers. Those I am aware of who have left the work in various Australian States, have all managed to purchase homes and otherwise provide themselves with an adequate living.
I am not surprised that Ernie Barry has been granted an allocation from the trust and do not think he has necessarily been shown favourable treatment, although someone in the secular world who is dismissed from office for criminal behaviour would probably lose some entitlements.
What is disturbing is that all such payments are kept secret and are made entirely at the overseers’ discretion.
This fact alone is a very powerful force to keep all workers subservient to the overseer.
Many years ago in Victoria, an elder discovered that his daughter, who was in the work, maintained a bank account in her own name. The elder did not think this was “scriptural” and raised the matter with the then overseer. The elder and his wife were excommunicated and so were some who stood by them. This was a factor in the schism that occurred in Victoria in the 1950’s.
Perhaps using personal bank accounts was how they did it in those days, now they use trust monies to give workers a payout when and if they leave the work. It is indeed an undisclosed and sneaky payment facility, which enables the workers to maintain they are unpaid, when in reality a nice monetary balance is accruing.
I don’t decry the facility per seÌ, but do take exception to the deceitfulness.
|
|
|
|
Post by Angelina Mouse on Oct 31, 2011 4:34:26 GMT -5
 Hi cooee, do they manage to wriggle out of paying tax like the Exclusive Brethren. Amazing the perks that a "church" has, like not paying council rates. How do they get round Centrelink. Might be different in the U.S.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2011 4:38:07 GMT -5
Hi cooee, do they manage to wriggle out of paying tax like the Exclusive Brethren. Amazing the perks that a "church" has, like not paying council rates. How do they get round Centrelink. Might be different in the U.S. Yes they get out of paying a lot. Like paying attention to real problems in their midst, all for the four "P" approach. Protect the Pride and Principles of the Preachers. |
|
|
|
Post by Angelina Mouse on Oct 31, 2011 4:39:21 GMT -5
:(Hey Shosho, you have a very sad story there. It makes me feel pretty inadequate, and maybe not much help, but I know there are others who read and post here, who feel for you. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2011 4:45:34 GMT -5
It is heartrending to see Shosho and others disclose their "testimony" here. My heart goes out to them. I have to admit whatever respect I still have for workers, head workers in particular, is fast diminishing. I include the vast majority of the good workers because collectively they can make proper things happen. They are protecting themselves ahead of protecting the children whom they will untimately be sharing domestic situations with.
For those good and genuine workers out there. If you cannot effect proper change, get out of the work now! The system doesn't deserve you and you will be better off out of it. If the required changes are not forthcoming, the work has no decent future.
|
|
|
|
Post by Angelina Mouse on Oct 31, 2011 4:47:14 GMT -5
Hey Ram, Certainly hav to agree with you. Often thought problem just our family till we talked to others. Sometimes they put people in the "too hard basket" and just kind of ignore them. No good asking that type for help, it wont be forthcoming. |
|
|
|
Post by exVic on Oct 31, 2011 5:29:15 GMT -5
I'm wondering how many of the people I've heard dismissed as being "stuffed in the head" a popular way of writing off "friends" in Vic/Tas are victims of CSA?
|
|
cooee
Junior Member
Posts: 69
|
Post by cooee on Nov 1, 2011 0:27:53 GMT -5
The poster “Redback” has suggested in an earlier post on this thread that sincere people in the fellowship should try to bring about changes to the way CSA and other sexual immorality is handled by the 2x2’s leaders.
Some of the friends would certainly like to see significant change in the organisation and administration of the fellowship and would advocate for that.
However, this fellowship is not called “the workers church” for nothing! This fellowship is a very definitely a “top down” organisation. Consensus and democratic processes are not part of the way this fellowship operates.
The overseer and the workers exercise all the power, make all the decisions, and give all the directives about how the fellowship operates.
The overseers in particular and the workers generally, have never shown any willingness to accept advice from the friends. The workers attitude is that they exclusively are Gods anointed representatives on the earth and therefore, because they have this exalted status, they “know it all”.
Many overt and covert expressions are used and actions undertaken to reinforce the idea that the worker is the superior and most important person, that they are the persons of consequence, power and influence. Conversely the friends are made aware that they are of vastly inferior status and importance. They have no power at all. Actually the friends are expendable! Many have been axed for the most ridiculous and trivial reasons.
In the past, no matter how compelling the case that could be put, no matter how many would support the case for change, no significant changes have been made as a result of requests made by the friends.
The workers have always exercised unrestrained power and it is a matter of deep distress that the majority of the friends seem pleased to have it that way and are quite content with the status quo.
Please pray that in this age of enhanced information availability and the exposure that this enables will cause sufficient pressure to bear on the leaders to bring about highly desirable and long overdue changes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2011 3:06:16 GMT -5
Cooee, I do hope you are not suggesting that this way was designed by workers FOR workers?
Sadly, your post rings many bells. The motto "Worker first-Abused child second" often comes to mind. This crystal clear observation is very disappointing and totally unacceptable.
|
|
|
|
Post by aus guest on Nov 1, 2011 4:06:12 GMT -5
Maybe something akin to the term 'arab spring' will eventuate.
It is only people power that will change things, because the workers are sure not going to initiate it
|
|
|
|
Post by catgirl on Nov 1, 2011 5:58:45 GMT -5
Cooee, I do hope you are not suggesting that this way was designed by workers FOR workers? Sadly, your post rings many bells. The motto "Worker first-Abused child second" often comes to mind. This crystal clear observation is very disappointing and totally unacceptable. Maybe we should as a group, push for mandatory reporting amongst certain individuals such as.. MInisters , Child care workers ,Elders. This is the case overseas I think? Then these perverted "workers" would be weeded out. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2011 6:06:49 GMT -5
Cooee, I do hope you are not suggesting that this way was designed by workers FOR workers? Sadly, your post rings many bells. The motto "Worker first-Abused child second" often comes to mind. This crystal clear observation is very disappointing and totally unacceptable. Maybe we should as a group, push for mandatory reporting amongst certain individuals such as.. MInisters , Child care workers ,Elders. This is the case overseas I think? Then these perverted "workers" would be weeded out. Your holding the wrong end of the stick. The priority is child protection. Thankfully there appears to be a major step in the right direction on this front. Keep our fingers crossed that this is something that will have practical application and not just nominal use. Get the guidelines practiced. My view is that it is everyone's responsibility to be aware of potential child abuse situations and to respond appropriate to the environment they are in at the material time. |
|
|
|
Post by spiders on Nov 1, 2011 6:54:24 GMT -5
Maybe we should as a group, push for mandatory reporting amongst certain individuals such as.. MInisters , Child care workers ,Elders. This is the case overseas I think? Then these perverted "workers" would be weeded out. Your holding the wrong end of the stick. The priority is child protection. Thankfully there appears to be a major step in the right direction on this front. Keep our fingers crossed that this is something that will have practical application and not just nominal use. Get the guidelines practiced. My view is that it is everyone's responsibility to be aware of potential child abuse situations and to respond appropriate to the environment they are in at the material time. I agree ram. The CSA guidelines that have been developed by a group of the friends are an excellent tool for use by the workers and if followed properly will go a long way to protecting our children from abuse. However it appears that the workers as a group are hesitant to adopt them which is a great shame. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2011 7:23:00 GMT -5
Your holding the wrong end of the stick. The priority is child protection. Thankfully there appears to be a major step in the right direction on this front. Keep our fingers crossed that this is something that will have practical application and not just nominal use. Get the guidelines practiced. My view is that it is everyone's responsibility to be aware of potential child abuse situations and to respond appropriate to the environment they are in at the material time. I agree ram. The CSA guidelines that have been developed by a group of the friends are an excellent tool for use by the workers and if followed properly will go a long way to protecting our children from abuse. However it appears that the workers as a group are hesitant to adopt them which is a great shame. Any worker who hesitates or is reluctant to adopt them should be aborted from the system like an evacuated bowel movement, then flushed away with his or her return craved no more! |
|
|
|
Post by ronhall on Nov 1, 2011 9:35:13 GMT -5
I agree ram. The CSA guidelines that have been developed by a group of the friends are an excellent tool for use by the workers and if followed properly will go a long way to protecting our children from abuse. However it appears that the workers as a group are hesitant to adopt them which is a great shame. Any worker who hesitates or is reluctant to adopt them should be aborted from the system like an evacuated bowel movement, then flushed away with his or her return craved no more! To put it bluntly! |
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on Nov 1, 2011 18:19:55 GMT -5
Great post Cooee, so so true .
|
|
cooee
Junior Member
Posts: 69
|
Post by cooee on Nov 1, 2011 19:27:46 GMT -5
Hi Angelina Mouse,
Thanks for the question about the taxation treatment of the 2x2 fellowship.
Recognised and registered churches enjoy advantageous treatment under taxation law in Australia.
Contrary to what is claimed by the 2x2’s and contrary to what many 2x2’s believe, this church IS registered and does have a registered name!!!!!
That registered name is “Christian Conventions”. Underneath that header there is a cunning word play, “Representing Assemblies of Christians Assuming This Name Only”.
(Source is sworn statement taken by Victorian Police from the late Evan Jones, a former overseer of Victoria / Tasmania)
In his statement, Evan claims that “this letterhead is used for official documentation when sending workers overseas”.
As if anyone would use a letterhead without there being the substance of a registered organisation behind it....................although, come to think of it, the 2x2’s are shonky enough to attempt such a deception.
However, It is clearly a fact that a name has been registered for the 2x2 church.
The church will identify and use the name when it suits its particular purposes. The name is used to claim tax free treatment of church funds and assets, to secure certain supports, access rights and advantages for individual workers both here and overseas.
When preaching or speaking with interested parties outside the fellowship, the church will deny it has a name. This lie is told by the church attempting to promote the essential righteousness of this . It is used as a selling point differentiating this church from others.
What breathtaking deceit and hypocrisy.
Lies, lies and more lies.
|
|
|
|
Post by ex tassie on Nov 1, 2011 22:24:08 GMT -5
Hey can someone tell me why sacre cowd is getting a hard time on this board by rational?  ? (From an earlier post) If this person is a victim of CSA, why are they are accused of not being true.? It would be pretty awful if rational is wrong? I thought this board is for all views? however worded this church and its workers, followers are deceitful and brainwashed. Sadly for the followers! How dare some one degrade a victim if this is so?  Shouldnt we be giving support? What have you got to say for yourself rational? |
|
Hi cooee, do they manage to wriggle out of paying tax like the Exclusive Brethren. Amazing the perks that a "church" has, like not paying council rates. How do they get round Centrelink. Might be different in the U.S. 
Shouldnt we be giving support?