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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 3, 2011 14:35:31 GMT -5
Al, I'd love to see a thread on the worker board about the "lifetime commitment", how current and former workers see it, and how the friends can help current and former workers put aside feelings of guilt when they need to leave the work. This should prove interesting! As always, this is my experience, with no claims made that it applies to everyone . . . I did see the work as a lifetime commitment when I began, and continued seeing it as such, probably until the day my companion asked me if something was wrong, I called a "responsible" California brother worker, and immediately began making plans to return from Saipan back to California. And I knew then, immediately, that the work was no longer my place. That may sound simple enough - if a bit contradictory - but there are many feelings, stages of growth, struggles, etc. implied between those 2 times, and I'll attempt to think through some that come to mind now: First, it seems to me that vows are sometimes spoken of in reference to the work. I don't think this was spoken a lot, or even implied a lot or by everyone, but I believe it was said at some times. I never did "vow" anything in regard to the work or in regard to professing either. I know that some felt strongly that vows are important, but to me it was more a matter of "being willing" - and that can mean different things too. So, I didn't vow and subsequently break that vow, but I did assume the work was for life. Things start sounding very contradictory when I attempt to spell it out here - I knew there was a struggle (I figured that out in a day or two!), and of course knew that many people left the work through the years, but somehow I guess - as many of us do in various situations - we somehow think we're an exception, that it's not going to happen to us. A lot of denial going on there. It's a type of denial that I don't see as outright hypocrisy, but as desperately trying to make something fit - something you've trusted in, which is the only thing you know, you have seen as "the way of God." It seems to me this can create a guilt trip, as you know your own struggles, and may still have this idea that most other workers (there were a few I didn't like) are somehow "getting more victory" than you. As I've mentioned elsewhere, both the friends and the workers were very kind to me when I left the work, and there was no guilt placed on me at that time. A few California workers tried to encourage me, but were also very accepting when I simply told them they "didn't know the whole story." I went to Marian MacPherson's funeral within a few months of leaving the work, and found it really difficult, knowing that I wouldn't die in the work and have a "worker's funeral" - whatever that is. Seems like pride on my part when I look back on that feeling now. Marian was a lady I still respect. Friends and workers did tell me that they appreciated the years I had invested in the work, and I appreciated that. There's probably no way to "make it easier," rather than to express appreciation and give them space to work into their new lives. As I've written in other threads, it is an immense change of relationships, maybe somewhat akin to a divorce or the death of a spouse, and it simply takes time to reformulate one's life. The financial side is of course a question, and an immense struggle for some. I began working immediately in my dad's office, helping with the computers and general stuff. I later did software support (for 3 years) for a small company that had sold the software to my dad. Our move to Honolulu 8 years ago was enabled by a job offer from some of the friends, which also related to computers. I eventually decided I didn't want to spend my time writing code (I do enjoy the logic), and began schooling in a realm that involves a lot of interaction with people. I believe much of the guilt comes from more implied sources, with "the ministry" held way up there somewhere. To me, this gets at the heart of what we're interrogating when we see wrongdoing covered up in the ministry. That protects an image, and leaving the work is somehow "interrupting" that image as well. I felt that I was somehow "letting people down" - workers, friends and family. My family was supportive, but the relationships there changed too. I'm an oldest child and grandchild, so was always supposed to "be an example" and all that stuff. I felt it when my grandparents didn't seem to quite know how to relate to me anymore - not that they were unkind, or loved me less, or that I was "hurt." I'm just saying that things changed, and I could tell that even my two living grandparents were no longer quite sure "where to place me."
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 3, 2011 15:18:11 GMT -5
Good idea, SG! In this connection, it might be appropriate to also mention some of the "reasons" used by workers to reinforce and keep workers IN the work... You'll never be happy if you leave and marry... Something will be wrong with any children you have... You wont be able to succeed at things you undertake...(careers, etc.) You will lose your reward for all you did while in the work if you leave the work... etc...these were just off the top of my head. There are more I'm sure. Do you think it would ever come to the point where someone could just offer to be in the work for 5 years? 2 years (like the Mormons). Offer to go as a married couple? Why does the offer "have" to be for a lifetime? How do the F & W view those who leave the work? I never heard any of the "nastier" implications, such as having "abnormal" children or never being successful, but I did hear things regarding not being happy. Though I am now happier than I have ever been (a progressive thing, not just because I'm no longer in the work or attending meetings), I can see where it can appear this way, as some ex-workers do "cling" to the work as "the best years of their lives." I don't view them as bad years, but neither did my life stop when I left the work (or meetings). Losing your reward? I didn't hear it expressed this specifically, but there was talk of "a worker's reward," so there are implications there, whether intended or not. I remember a few discussions about this and related topics, but can't recall much detail, other than that there were differing ideas on it, and "rewards" in general. A few former workers did say to me that there is a "special" fellowship between workers and former workers, and I would acknowledge that there can be a certain bond, as can exist between any two people who have gone through similar experiences. But this also emphasizes, for me, the separation between the ministry and the church, with the ministry in an elevated position. Any group of people who once professed have a certain bond too, which to me emphasizes the "unique" experience of being a member of the fellowship. I know there is occasionally talk among workers about a married ministry - I'm referring to conversations I was involved in, among brother workers, in our quarters. But these never became serious or went very far, and often contained a reference to some younger workers some years back (in the 50s), who had tried to made a push to allow married workers. But this was generally looked on as a "rebellion," and not something in which we wanted to be implicated. I don't remember any discussions about the work being less than a lifetime commitment (as generally intended anyway). I've never really given thought to set lengths of time, so can't really say much there. There are dynamics I question among the Mormon missionaries too - like holding their passports, and putting them in new areas and with new "companions" (can't remember their word) every couple of weeks. I'm not just saying these things from "hearsay' either - Eldon Huff and I visited with many of the Mormon missionaries on Majuro during our two years there. I guess I have trouble with the whole idea of a class of "missionaries" - also because I know a fair bit about missionary history here in Hawai`i and elsewhere in the Pacific. I wonder, Cherie, if some of the nastier implications you've heard about may have come from earlier times? I was in the work between 1980 and 1998, and possibly workers had learned to be a bit more careful in their talk, or had reconsidered some ideas. Or, perhaps it's a matter of regional variations - different people, times, and places.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 3, 2011 15:36:49 GMT -5
Taken from a thread on the main board: When I was growing up, the source of the lifetime worker commitment idea came from the following scripture and I heard it a lot: "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." However, I haven't heard it for quite a few years now. There is a much greater turnover of workers today than 40 years ago so it would put a lot of pressure on people today....especially those who have to leave the work for true health reasons as well as those who leave for other reasons. Yes, I remember hearing this verse used in a "worker context" too. Something I might add also is that even though you may not hear so many of these implications as friends any more, workers meetings do focus a significant amount of time on encouraging workers to "go on," "remaining faithful in their place," and so on. These themes are used in other meetings in regard to professing, but of course have a different meaning in the context of a workers' meeting. There is also talk of brothers and sisters getting too close to one another, or something else that "took their eyes from the harvest field." This isn't to imply any wrongdoing, but it does imply that it would have been better if ____ had remained in the work. And when workers give their testimonies in a worker meeting, it is often along themes of having renewed vision and commitment to the work. This can work to make a person wonder what is wrong with her/him if s/he isn't feeling the same thing. I do know that the last worker meeting I sat in - Mtn. Ranch 1998 - was definitely not my meeting, as I no longer had that "purpose." I respectfully sat there and listened, but it was not my meeting! Of course, this kind of talk is appropriate and necessary to "keep on" in the work - it's just that some of us question whether "the work" need be the institution that we see it as.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 3, 2011 16:52:56 GMT -5
Al, I appreciate your postings on this thread! Your experience and views are much more along the lines of mine than the experience and views of Edgar and which he posted on the noels question thread Thanks, noels. Yes, for me the negative experience began a few years after I left the work, and was not related to leaving the work. However, I did experience much the same dynamics that Edgar did, just in a different situation, as I seemed to become a threat to the wrong person/s, just as Edgar did, only at a different point in my life. Through that later experience, I definitely began to view the work as an institution, albeit with some very good people working within it, as well as some very hurtful people. The system does tend to allow people to hide though. Although I didn't experience this negativity while in the work, this experience helped me understand many of my doubts while in the work, and I began to see how individual choices to not acknowledge or address issues can work to protect them. I seek, in my posting, to highlight the day-to-day, individual choices that are made, showing that human decisions are very much involved in the forming of the ministry, though there are Godly men and women within it.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 3, 2011 17:43:56 GMT -5
Al You have had some unfortunate unpleasant experience in the years since you have left the work. That doesn't shock or surprise me. I've seen things in individuals or groups of individuals that have also concerned me. But I have not experienced the ministry as a ministry that does not have the guidance of the Spirit. I see evidence of God using it to do the work that Jesus intended it should do when he told the Apostles he would be with them until the end of the world. I KNOW there are incidents and individuals which are quite contrary to what God wants and plans...but inspite of that, I see many who have not partaken in such, agree with such, consent to such or come under the influence of such and God is using to do his work. Noels - I certainly agree that I have witnessed the directing of the spirit in workers, but I view it as God directing individuals, rather than God directing "the ministry." This is important to me in terms of being able to address issues, as well as in acknowledging that God directs individuals in other places - outside of the fellowship - as well. Thanks for discussing this with me, in a place where others can listen/join in as well. Al
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 3, 2011 18:20:55 GMT -5
Al, you are quite right, the Spirit directs individuals not 'the Ministry' My posting should perhaps rather have been My experience is of a ministry that has many individuals in it, including Overseers who have the guidance of the Spirit. I see evidence of God using them to do the work that Jesus intended it should do when he told the Apostles he would be with them until the end of the world. is that better/more accurate? Thanks, noels. I believe that in viewing and speaking of it such a manner, we can begin to address things that are sometimes hidden, and made unreachable, by an unquestionable "the ministry." I digress here a bit from my intentions in the forum, but maybe folks will permit those of us with experience in the work do discuss things a bit . . . I see terms such as "the Kingdom of God" as also very limiting. When I challenge a term like this, it is not because I am saying God is not in it, or it's not of God. It is rather because I see a conflation of God's "Kingdom," with a specific institution or structure. And "God's Kingdom" is of course perfect, so when we conflate it with a fellowship, it becomes unthinkable to question that fellowship. Again, in laying aside some fears and talking about it, we can actually find it very empowering. When someone listens to our concerns, and we feel our voice has been heard, we begin to calm down a bit! But when someone says, "Don't talk like that about The Kingdom/The Ministry," or they state, "I've never heard/seen that," we feel like our experience is being denied, and we grow angry . . . and this translates to many, many situations, not only this particular fellowship.
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