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Post by Simple on Nov 15, 2005 9:12:45 GMT -5
Okay, I do use a broad brush. They are people, so were the Pharisee's. The Pharisees probably looked pretty good and worthy too. Striving to be good and do the right things, for the right reasons, but they did not know God. They had pride in themselves and compared themselves favorably to others. How often do humans see that their value to God and their value to other humans are completely different things. The pressure the workers applied to me to clean up my act if I wanted to be baptized really was inescapably tragic. A different scale than what God uses. I was good enough for God(thanks to Jesus)but not worthy of the 2x2's. Like all of us, they need to find the Pharisee in themselves before they mislead others into believing some of their "innocent lies", about how other Christians aren't real Christians. I do not feel bad about taking pot shots at them all day long. They have been doing it to other Christians since they started their little sect. It is a way of life for them. Bearing witness to themselvesGod knows who his children are, not the workers. It is a dangerous "vain" doctrine they insist on standing by. So be it, if they want to stake your and their lives on who they are. Lets see if it floats?Simple you must be very perfect, or very "simple." Who made you a judge over anybody? Sometimes we can see all that is wrong in others but we fail to see our own faults; and you are no exception, you are the same Pharisee. Take pot shots all day at workers, but be very careful not to get hit by a ricochet. I have experienced fearing the words of people and thanks to God, facing some of the worst things I wanted to hear. I found the Truth in the words I was afraid to hear, but God sent his spirit to comfort me.It liberated me from fearing the words of people. As long as we live in fear we cannot also live in Faith..... Truth lives on the other side of fear. Love is a seed Faith in Gods love and goodness makes it grow God gives us his peace and joy I went from being unsure to a believer, not from unsure to 2x2. The 2x2's are too impressed with themselves for my taste.
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Post by To Simple again on Nov 15, 2005 18:59:55 GMT -5
Simple you must be very perfect, or very "simple." Who made you a judge over anybody? Sometimes we can see all that is wrong in others but we fail to see our own faults; and you are no exception, you are the same Pharisee. Take pot shots all day at workers, but be very careful not to get hit by a ricochet. I have experienced fearing the words of people and thanks to God, facing some of the worst things I wanted to hear. I found the Truth in the words I was afraid to hear, but God sent his spirit to comfort me.It liberated me from fearing the words of people. As long as we live in fear we cannot also live in Faith..... Truth lives on the other side of fear. Love is a seed Faith in Gods love and goodness makes it grow God gives us his peace and joy I went from being unsure to a believer, not from unsure to 2x2. The 2x2's are too impressed with themselves for my taste. Maybe the 2x2's are impressed with themselves because they have applied their hearts to wisdom and they are on the right track to heaven and eternal life.
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Post by Howard on Nov 15, 2005 19:09:13 GMT -5
Being accountable is one thing, but in the case of religion vs religion, Clay will find it impossible to determine who is accountable to whom.
While Clay was a 2x2, he was accountable to the workers and any doubt levied toward their teachings was consider a treading on sacred ground with the resultant loss of eternal life if continued. Clay's parents are still accountable to the workers; not to the pope or priest of the local chapter of the RCC as Clay is. Clay should pursue the souls of his parents or other family members who might be jeopardized by such assumably false teaching.
I regret Clay's succumbing to anxiety in his quest to exercise patience. Patience is the mark of a mature Christian as we're reminded in James 1:3 "Knowing this that the trying of your faith worketh patience."
However, I doubt that Clay's faith in Jesus Christ is at stake here. His confidence in Catholicism has been rattled to a certain degree, but no one is attacking his faith in Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life; definitely not me.
I'm in total agreement with him in that arena. If he buckles under the pressures of someone casting doubt on his choice of denomination, then the denomination wasn't worth defending in the first place. Catholicism and 2x2ism could fall , be buried and forgotten and Jesus Christ will yet reign in the hearts of those who believe in Him (forever).
The church has the promise of continual existance (Matthew 16 :18.......Catholicism is susceptible to collapse as well as any other denomination. Why would a grown man risk his own sanity and peace of mind to defend such a thing?
Howard
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Post by Simple on Nov 16, 2005 8:12:07 GMT -5
I have experienced fearing the words of people and thanks to God, facing some of the worst things I wanted to hear. I found the Truth in the words I was afraid to hear, but God sent his spirit to comfort me.It liberated me from fearing the words of people. As long as we live in fear we cannot also live in Faith..... Truth lives on the other side of fear. Love is a seed Faith in Gods love and goodness makes it grow God gives us his peace and joy I went from being unsure to a believer, not from unsure to 2x2. The 2x2's are too impressed with themselves for my taste. Maybe the 2x2's are impressed with themselves because they have applied their hearts to wisdom and they are on the right track to heaven and eternal life. Haven't you noticed the groups impressed with themselves, bear witness to themselves? Where is the Godly wisdom in that? The Marines are impressed with themselves The US congress is impressed with themselves The Scientologist are impressed with themselves etc........ Christians are impressed with God and their savior not themselves............ How can we be impressed with ourselves? Don't you know the Truth?
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Post by just my take on Nov 16, 2005 11:58:53 GMT -5
quote: Maybe the 2x2's are impressed with themselves because they have applied their hearts to wisdom and they are on the right track to heaven and eternal life. Simple replied: Haven't you noticed the groups impressed with themselves, bear witness to themselves? Where is the Godly wisdom in that? The Marines are impressed with themselves The US congress is impressed with themselves The Scientologist are impressed with themselves etc........ Christians are impressed with God and their savior not themselves............ How can we be impressed with ourselves? Don't you know the Truth?Ahhemm: I would like to point out a different experience, if I may............ My impression of the 'friends' is that they love the 'truth' and they feel it is right, but that they are not trying to impress anyone, in fact they seem very self-effacing..........almost shy about 'the way'. They don't advertise. My impression of many 'worldly' churches out there is that they ARE impressed with themselves and all that they have accomplished. They are impressed with their membership numbers. They are impressed with the revenues they bring in. They are impressed with the buildings they build. They are impressed with all the 'activities' they've got going on. They are impressed with how 'cool' they are. They are so impressed with themselves they are advertising it all over the place. Need I say more? I agree that Christians should be impressed with God and our Saviour, not themselves.
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Post by Understanding on Nov 16, 2005 12:08:03 GMT -5
I strongly disagree with "just my take's" assessment of "worldly" churches being impressed with their numbers/revenues/buildings/activities/coolness.
What is it they advertise? Their church or peace and love and salvation of Jesus? Do they advertise about their numbers/revenues/buildings or do they advertise Jesus?
The message I see from "worldly" churches is to come and see/experience the love of Christ.
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Post by Simple on Nov 16, 2005 13:02:56 GMT -5
quote: Maybe the 2x2's are impressed with themselves because they have applied their hearts to wisdom and they are on the right track to heaven and eternal life. Simple replied: Haven't you noticed the groups impressed with themselves, bear witness to themselves? Where is the Godly wisdom in that? The Marines are impressed with themselves The US congress is impressed with themselves The Scientologist are impressed with themselves etc........ Christians are impressed with God and their savior not themselves............ How can we be impressed with ourselves? Don't you know the Truth?Ahhemm: I would like to point out a different experience, if I may............ My impression of the 'friends' is that they love the 'truth' and they feel it is right, but that they are not trying to impress anyone, in fact they seem very self-effacing..........almost shy about 'the way'. They don't advertise. My impression of many 'worldly' churches out there is that they ARE impressed with themselves and all that they have accomplished. They are impressed with their membership numbers. They are impressed with the revenues they bring in. They are impressed with the buildings they build. They are impressed with all the 'activities' they've got going on. They are impressed with how 'cool' they are. They are so impressed with themselves they are advertising it all over the place. Need I say more? I agree that Christians should be impressed with God and our Saviour, not themselves. It is a matter of perception isn't it? Yet, I never sat in a Baptist church and heard them claim they are "God's only true servants", etc.... I am embarrassed for the workers. Their claims only serve their vanity, not God. It just shows how much they don't know about God and "HIS" Truth. I could go thru your statements 1 x 1, but it would not change your mind. Neither of us is looking for answers at the moment.
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Post by ClayRandall on Nov 16, 2005 13:28:15 GMT -5
Being accountable is one thing, but in the case of religion vs religion, Clay will find it impossible to determine who is accountable to whom. Yet in Howard's case, it isn't a matter religion versus religion - it's Howardism versus his mocking caricature of Catholicism. The kind of accountability I'm talking about is the accounting Howard will have on the Last Day when he has to explain his behavior (just as I will). While Clay was a 2x2, he was accountable to the workers and any doubt levied toward their teachings was consider a treading on sacred ground with the resultant loss of eternal life if continued. Once again, I was never a 2x2. I grew up in a 2x2 household but never professed and left at age 18 when I moved out. Clay's parents are still accountable to the workers; not to the pope or priest of the local chapter of the RCC as Clay is. Clay should pursue the souls of his parents or other family members who might be jeopardized by such assumably false teaching. My parents are accountable to God and their best understanding of how to know, love and serve Him. I have confidence that God will not hold any non-Catholic to Catholic standards. I regret Clay's succumbing to anxiety in his quest to exercise patience. Patience is the mark of a mature Christian as we're reminded in James 1:3 "Knowing this that the trying of your faith worketh patience." Jesus "succumbed" to righteous anger on more than one occasion, so I don't feel too badly about admitting what I think about Howard's behavior. However, I doubt that Clay's faith in Jesus Christ is at stake here. His confidence in Catholicism has been rattled to a certain degree, but no one is attacking his faith in Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life; definitely not me. Howard simply lacks the intellectual capacity to speak for me, let alone the courage of his convictions. He wouldn't dream of walking into a Jewish synagogue and say the same kind of inflammatory things he's said here to the rabbi there. This forum is a convenient (and safely anonymous) place for him to play word games that I don't think are funny. I'm in total agreement with him in that arena. If he buckles under the pressures of someone casting doubt on his choice of denomination, then the denomination wasn't worth defending in the first place. As usual, Howard's wishful thinking and bigoted outlook on 2x2s and Catholics in particular interferes with his ability to know what I'm thinking. It is not "buckling under the pressure" to be honest enough to say I that I think that the version of a Christian walk Howard presents as an alternative to Catholicism would be an empty and pointless waste of time. The church has the promise of continual existance (Matthew 16 :18.......Catholicism is susceptible to collapse as well as any other denomination. Why would a grown man risk his own sanity and peace of mind to defend such a thing? Once again, Howard is in no position to know what my state of mind is. Howard is, once again, the answer to the Catholic question that no one asked.
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Post by just my take on Nov 16, 2005 13:34:01 GMT -5
Seems I have hit a nerve............
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Post by Howard on Nov 16, 2005 19:37:53 GMT -5
The kind of accountability I'm talking about is the accounting Howard will have on the Last Day when he has to explain his behavior (just as I will). Did you forget that I'm not held accountable by Catholic standards? That's the impact of our whole interaction. Regardless of the irritability you feel that I produce for you, the real issue is that I don't see Catholicism as necessary or profitable to anyone's salvation and you DO. Jesus Himself argued with the Pharisees and called them names (which you referenced as your right to call me names). The rules and standards of the Pharisees were meaningless to the followers of Christ; just as Catholicism is meaningless today. Oh yes, there is a certain prestige that results from will worship but the result is futility. Col 2:20-23 extends the question "Why as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances:?...and "which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh". Once again, I was never a 2x2. I grew up in a 2x2 household but never professed and left at age 18 when I moved out. Same story here, but we were being nurtured in the ways of the workers who we were taught to be accountable to and to whom we were taught "held the keys to the kingdom".....and now you've gone and given your allegiance to yet another exclusivistic organization similar to what you left who claims to have the "keys to the kingdom" and you think it's just fine. My parents are accountable to God and their best understanding of how to know, love and serve Him. I have confidence that God will not hold any non-Catholic to Catholic standards. I appreciate your backing off on the necessity of Catholicism in everyone's life. The "best understanding" of tens of thousands of non-Catholics must include their rejection of Catholicism. I hope you can also someday bring yourself to retract your statement that all non-Catholics are "gravely deficient". To maintain that assertion, you are cursing the whole sincerity of your own parent's faith. Jesus "succumbed" to righteous anger on more than one occasion, so I don't feel too badly about admitting what I think about Howard's behavior. Nor do I feel any worse about rejecting Catholic teachings than Jesus must have felt when confronted by Pharisees. He had harsh warnings for those who made their own doctrine and made void the word of God: "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes [see Lawyers] and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20 RSV)." Howard simply lacks the intellectual capacity to speak for me, let alone the courage of his convictions. He wouldn't dream of walking into a Jewish synagogue and say the same kind of inflammatory things he's said here to the rabbi there. This forum is a convenient (and safely anonymous) place for him to play word games that I don't think are funny. If I even knew where to find a Jewish synagogue, there has been no attempt by them to clutter the word of God to my face with statements purporting them to be the body of Christ on earth whose leader holds the position of infallible vicar of Christ, whose church possesses the keys to the kingdom of heaven and all those who reject it are ''gravely deficient". As usual, Howard's wishful thinking and bigoted outlook on 2x2s and Catholics in particular interferes with his ability to know what I'm thinking. It is not "buckling under the pressure" to be honest enough to say I that I think that the version of a Christian walk Howard presents as an alternative to Catholicism would be an empty and pointless waste of time. And there is benefit in becoming a Pharisee?
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Post by Different strokes on Nov 16, 2005 19:59:44 GMT -5
Quote: I think that the version of a Christian walk Howard presents as an alternative to Catholicism would be an empty and pointless waste of time. End quote.
Howard, from what we've seen, trusts fully in Jesus Christ alone for his salvation. His walk, from what he presents on this board, is a one-on-one walk with God.
He witnesses in his every day life to people, some of whom many others would not speak to, and in some places most here would never venture.
His alternative to attending church (any and all) is to witness directly to people, to sing gospel songs with others, to others, going to them and witnessing the love and salvation of Christ to them is an empty and pointless waste of time?
His seeing and acknowledging God in nature and in every day life and writing and singing about knowing recognizing God EVERYWHERE is an empty walk?
His walk is empty and pointless waste of time?
Wow.
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Post by ClayRandall on Nov 17, 2005 9:12:41 GMT -5
Did you forget that I'm not held accountable by Catholic standards? That's the impact of our whole interaction. The standard I'm talking about is the standard of honesty which is irrespective of denomination. Howard does not uphold this standard when he misquotes, misrepresents, or deliberately seeks to inflame (like saying that Jesus becomes human excrement according to Catholic teaching). Same story here, but we were being nurtured in the ways of the workers who we were taught to be accountable to and to whom we were taught "held the keys to the kingdom".....and now you've gone and given your allegiance to yet another exclusivistic organization similar to what you left who claims to have the "keys to the kingdom" and you think it's just fine. Howard can't seem to wrap his mind around the fact that just because he doesn't like or understand something doesn't automatically make it wrong. Furthermore, he continues to insult me by repeatedly assuming he knows to whom my allegience is and to whom I felt responsible to. I am Catholic because of my belief in God, not instead of Him. I appreciate your backing off on the necessity of Catholicism in everyone's life. The "best understanding" of tens of thousands of non-Catholics must include their rejection of Catholicism. I hope you can also someday bring yourself to retract your statement that all non-Catholics are "gravely deficient". To maintain that assertion, you are cursing the whole sincerity of your own parent's faith. I know that this is a sensitive issue for Howard. I don't know how else to say it, but I think everyone should be Catholic. There are those (including my parents), who through no fault of their own, choose to be non-Catholic, but there is a large difference between being "gravely deficient" and "eternally damned". I repeat because Howard continues to personalize the term "gravely deficient" to be a personal attack for the convenient purpose of stirring up controversy, when in fact it refers to one's state of grace. Nor do I feel any worse about rejecting Catholic teachings than Jesus must have felt when confronted by Pharisees. He had harsh warnings for those who made their own doctrine and made void the word of God: *LOL* So speaks Howard, the lone and infallible interpreter of Scripture! If I even knew where to find a Jewish synagogue, there has been no attempt by them to clutter the word of God to my face with statements purporting them to be the body of Christ on earth whose leader holds the position of infallible vicar of Christ, whose church possesses the keys to the kingdom of heaven and all those who reject it are ''gravely deficient". Go back and discover for yourself who the person is who continues to insist on putting things in the faces of people here at TMB. It is Howard, the self-appointed answer to questions nobody asked. And there is benefit in becoming a Pharisee? I have my many faults, but I never considered myself to be a hypocritically self-righteous person. If it makes Howard feel better, with his lack of an argument of any substance, to resort to name-calling that's fine with me.
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Post by And on Nov 17, 2005 9:46:02 GMT -5
Did you forget that I'm not held accountable by Catholic standards? That's the impact of our whole interaction. The standard I'm talking about is the standard of honesty which is irrespective of denomination. Howard does not uphold this standard when he misquotes, misrepresents, or deliberately seeks to inflame (like saying that Jesus becomes human excrement according to Catholic teaching). Howard can't seem to wrap his mind around the fact that just because he doesn't like or understand something doesn't automatically make it wrong. Furthermore, he continues to insult me by repeatedly assuming he knows to whom my allegience is and to whom I felt responsible to. I am Catholic because of my belief in God, not instead of Him. I know that this is a sensitive issue for Howard. I don't know how else to say it, but I think everyone should be Catholic. There are those (including my parents), who through no fault of their own, choose to be non-Catholic, but there is a large difference between being "gravely deficient" and "eternally damned". I repeat because Howard continues to personalize the term "gravely deficient" to be a personal attack for the convenient purpose of stirring up controversy, when in fact it refers to one's state of grace. *LOL* So speaks Howard, the lone and infallible interpreter of Scripture! Go back and discover for yourself who the person is who continues to insist on putting things in the faces of people here at TMB. It is Howard, the self-appointed answer to questions nobody asked. And there is benefit in becoming a Pharisee? I have my many faults, but I never considered myself to be a hypocritically self-righteous person. If it makes Howard feel better, with his lack of an argument of any substance, to resort to name-calling that's fine with me. And Clay, over time I have observed the consistent argument of you and Howard. Clay you knock the 2x2 and Howard knocks the RCC. I will state that I see major problems with the RCC doctrines which you for some reason want to defend. Why? There are so many errors in the teaching of Catholism the as an X 2x2 I would never consider looking to them for fellowship. Howard is just pointing out many of those errors. You can dump on other structures like the 2x2 but you cannot allow anyone to speak about the comedy of errors in the RCC.
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Post by ClayRandall on Nov 17, 2005 9:52:41 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree with your assertion that the RCC is a "comedy of errors". If you are interested in articulating your objections, I would be happy to discuss them with you.
I fail to see what is wrong with me wanting to explain what I believe.
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Post by Howard on Nov 18, 2005 0:02:12 GMT -5
The standard I'm talking about is the standard of honesty which is irrespective of denomination. Howard does not uphold this standard when he misquotes, misrepresents, or deliberately seeks to inflame (like saying that Jesus becomes human excrement according to Catholic teaching). I never said Jesus becomes human excrement. I said your wafers and wine (THAT YOU THINK IS JESUS) became sewage. You didn't eat Jesus anyhow....why be inflamed? While we're on the subject, just what kind of biological explanation can you give that would prevent anything that entered your stomach from turning into excrement? Howard can't seem to wrap his mind around the fact that just because he doesn't like or understand something doesn't automatically make it wrong. Does that apply to my thoughts about Islam too? Furthermore, he continues to insult me by repeatedly assuming he knows to whom my allegience is and to whom I felt responsible to. I am Catholic because of my belief in God, not instead of Him. I may be wrong, but you're probably Catholic because you married into it and had to take vows. Your Catholic wife had to have some influence on you. I know that this is a sensitive issue for Howard. I don't know how else to say it, but I think everyone should be Catholic. Personal feelings don't seem to hold much water in the salvation equation. I think everyone should be non-Catholic like those 3,000 Jesus added to "the church'' in one day. Be reminded there was no Catholic Church to add them to and there would be no Catholic Church on the scene for another 300 years to come. There are those (including my parents), who through no fault of their own, choose to be non-Catholic, but there is a large difference between being "gravely deficient" and "eternally damned". I repeat because Howard continues to personalize the term "gravely deficient" to be a personal attack for the convenient purpose of stirring up controversy, when in fact it refers to one's state of grace. And according to your own Catholic Encyclopedia, your parents will never receive grace as evidenced here: Moreover, it is to the Church that Christ has committed those means of grace through which the gifts He earned for men are communicated to them. The Church alone dispenses the sacraments. It alone makes known the light of revealed truth. Outside the Church these gifts cannot be obtained.[/u][/i] Now that I quoted a Catholic source, you'll have to find another excuse to defame me. You've denied the authenticity of the author of Catholic Voice before and you deny that numerous popes mean "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church" ; do you want to put down the Catholic Encyclopedia too...? www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htmGo back and discover for yourself who the person is who continues to insist on putting things in the faces of people here at TMB. It is Howard, the self-appointed answer to questions nobody asked. Are you ashamed of the contents of the Catholic Encyclopedia? Does this following paragraph cause a stir? Why wouldn't you want people here on the TMB to be exposed to this embarrassing little quip: "Outside the Church these gifts cannot be obtained. From all this there is but one conclusion: Union with the Church is not merely one out of various means by which salvation may be obtained: it is the only means."
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Post by ClayRandall on Nov 18, 2005 10:07:39 GMT -5
I never said Jesus becomes human excrement. I said your wafers and wine (THAT YOU THINK IS JESUS) became sewage. You didn't eat Jesus anyhow....why be inflamed? Howard stated: "The priest turns bread and wine into literal Jesus and the body literally turns literal Jesus into literal .....what?"He then went on to talk about extending this to "entire meals or even the grocery lists"There have been other equally scornful statements made by him, so I think it is fairly obvious that his intent is not to obtain information, or even discuss, but to inflame. While we're on the subject, just what kind of biological explanation can you give that would prevent anything that entered your stomach from turning into excrement? The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ (CCC 1337) Does that apply to my thoughts about Islam too? The applications seem endless.... I may be wrong, but you're probably Catholic because you married into it and had to take vows. Your Catholic wife had to have some influence on you. Not only is Howard wrong, this is a logical fallacy called ad hominem circumstantial, meaning one tries to discredit someone's position based on that person's circumstances rather than dealing with the issue at hand. Personal feelings don't seem to hold much water in the salvation equation. I think everyone should be non-Catholic like those 3,000 Jesus added to "the church'' in one day. Be reminded there was no Catholic Church to add them to and there would be no Catholic Church on the scene for another 300 years to come. That's a debatable point, but it is also true that there was no Bible "on the scene" for another 300 years to come. Howard has yet to come to terms with how he knows what is in the Bible is true. And according to your own Catholic Encyclopedia, your parents will never receive grace as evidenced here: Moreover, it is to the Church that Christ has committed those means of grace through which the gifts He earned for men are communicated to them. The Church alone dispenses the sacraments. It alone makes known the light of revealed truth. Outside the Church these gifts cannot be obtained.[/u][/i] Now that I quoted a Catholic source, you'll have to find another excuse to defame me. You've denied the authenticity of the author of Catholic Voice before and you deny that numerous popes mean "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church" ; do you want to put down the Catholic Encyclopedia too...? [/quote] Defamation is not necessary, although it does call into question Howard's ability to remember previous discussions about what "outside" the Catholic Church means. The topic usually makes his head explode with faithful Protestant indignation. Go back and discover for yourself who the person is who continues to insist on putting things in the faces of people here at TMB. It is Howard, the self-appointed answer to questions nobody asked. Are you ashamed of the contents of the Catholic Encyclopedia? See above. The fact remains that Howard is the answer to the questions nobody asked.
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Post by Howard on Nov 18, 2005 10:47:47 GMT -5
If anyone got any satisfactory answers or explanations from Clay's last post, please inform me because I missed it.
Clay can't explain :
1. Biologically, how ingested wafers and wine do not produce excrement. (All he offered was some lingo from the CCC 1337 that was irrelevant and evasive and then even claims that my questioning is scornful.) Is there a similarity here with questioning the 2x2 workers on sensitive issues -----doublespeak, coverup and outright attack?
2. How his parents can ever receive grace when the Vatican insists that "Outside the Church these gifts cannot be obtained".
Instead, I'm reminded of my forgetfulness that we're all Catholics anyhow and the word "outside" does not mean "outside". I've checked my ancestry and can find no Catholics in my family, I was never baptized a Catholic, I've never joined the Catholic Church, I reject the Catholic Church's claim to fame and yet Clay insists that I'm a Catholic. Figure that one out !!
"Howard has yet to come to terms with how he knows what is in the Bible is true."
And yet Clay will use the bible to prove Catholicism is the only true church !!
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Post by ClayRandall on Nov 18, 2005 12:30:04 GMT -5
1. Biologically, how ingested wafers and wine do not produce excrement. (All he offered was some lingo from the CCC 1337 that was irrelevant and evasive and then even claims that my questioning is scornful.) Is there a similarity here with questioning the 2x2 workers on sensitive issues -----doublespeak, coverup and outright attack? I'll try again for Howard's benefit. Once the "wafers and wine" are broken down and are no longer in the physical form of "wafers and wine", Christ is no longer Present. 2. How his parents can ever receive grace when the Vatican insists that " Outside the Church these gifts cannot be obtained". Instead, I'm reminded of my forgetfulness that we're all Catholics anyhow and the word "outside" does not mean "outside". That's because Howard has been told numerous times, that just because a person is not a card-carrying member (having learned the secret handshake and everything) of a Catholic parish, the Catholic Church does not necessarily consider that person "outside". They are considered still connected, albeit imperfectly. Howard is either getting senile, or he is pretending to forget that he has been told this.
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Post by Howard on Nov 18, 2005 13:36:51 GMT -5
Once the "wafers and wine" are broken down and are no longer in the physical form of "wafers and wine", Christ is no longer Present. Is this some of that comedy someone mentioned? And I suppose this has been clinically proven? So then, logically speaking, when it is half broken down it is half Christ and half excrement . Right? 2. How his parents can ever receive grace when the Vatican insists that " Outside the Church these gifts cannot be obtained". Instead, I'm reminded of my forgetfulness that we're all Catholics anyhow and the word "outside" does not mean "outside". That's because Howard has been told numerous times, that just because a person is not a card-carrying member (having learned the secret handshake and everything) of a Catholic parish, the Catholic Church does not necessarily consider that person "outside". They are considered still connected, albeit imperfectly. Howard is either getting senile, or he is pretending to forget that he has been told this. [/quote] And numerous times I have denied any connection to the Catholic Church. Besides, I've lost my Bingo card. I wonder if Dave Hunt would appreciate knowing he's a Catholic. Oh yes, senility does not run in my family, Albert. Yours truly, Harold
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Post by ClayRandall on Nov 18, 2005 15:34:42 GMT -5
Once the "wafers and wine" are broken down and are no longer in the physical form of "wafers and wine", Christ is no longer Present. Is this some of that comedy someone mentioned? And I suppose this has been clinically proven? So then, logically speaking, when it is half broken down it is half Christ and half excrement . Right? No, but this kind of argument and the motive behind it is 100% excrement... I wonder if Dave Hunt would appreciate knowing he's a Catholic. I knew Howard reminded me of someone. I just couldn't place him. Oh yes, senility does not run in my family, Albert. There's always a first time for everything. Howard, the answer to questions that nobody asked.
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Post by Howard on Nov 18, 2005 16:12:40 GMT -5
C'mon Clay, can't you explain the process of what happens (and when) of the breakdown process of Jesus in the bowels?
I'd like to try it if it worked, but I do know what happens to ingested food and so does everyone else. If you had some proof or was even willing to describe the spiritual benefit of something taken in through the mouth, we'd think that maybe you were really on to something.
Now you've offered that Jesus is no longer Jesus after the "breakdown" in the bowels. We know food is absorbed into the bloodstream and the benefit is physical health, but I can't imagine it benefitting our soul. A soul isn't a physical part of our body unless your sources can prove otherwise.
Quite likely you're just wrong altogether and the flesh that Jesus offered ''once and for all time'' was the sacrifice of his own flesh on the cross. Now THAT I could understand. It doesn't need volumes of explanation to support it.
I really think you're just repeating alot of speculation that someone has cooked up to try to support the Catholic theories. As with any falsehood, it will catch up with you sooner or later and you'll have to resort to namecalling and sidestepping to save face. (Oh, sorry, you're already doing that).
Howard, with questions that nobody can answer.
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Post by ClayRandall on Nov 18, 2005 16:26:40 GMT -5
I can explain it to Howard, but I can't comprehend it for him. He is more interested in mockery than true dialogue.
I, on the other hand, have no problem taking Jesus at His word when He said "this is my body". Jesus, the one who demonstrated his mastery of the physical universe by walking on water, multiplying the loaves and fishes, raising the dead, curing disease, passing through walls, etc, - if He says he becomes Present in the Bread and Wine, He does. Howard has yet to offer a suitable explanation to the contrary, short of insulting my beliefs and then chortling to himself about imaginary namecalling as if that wins his weak arguments.
It is sad - no, it is embarassing.
Howard, the answer to questions nobody asked.
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timber
Senior Member
Posts: 249
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Post by timber on Nov 18, 2005 16:28:09 GMT -5
Howard:
Just because a person cannot say exactly how something works does not mean that it doesn't work. Take Faith. Can you give me, detail by detail, the exact way that it is transferred to us by God. Or how about Grace, can you tell me how that is transferred to a person? There are alot of mysteries in the world, but that does not make them made-up or false..
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Post by Howard on Nov 18, 2005 19:14:40 GMT -5
Howard: Just because a person cannot say exactly how something works does not mean that it doesn't work. Take Faith. Can you give me, detail by detail, the exact way that it is transferred to us by God. Or how about Grace, can you tell me how that is transferred to a person? There are alot of mysteries in the world, but that does not make them made-up or false.. Don't mix apples with oranges here. Faith, belief, spirit, bornagain etc. are spiritual matters that no one can put their finger on. The bible compares it to the wind. But, when we're mixing spiritual things with the physical, it's like mixing oil with water....it doesn't work. Granted there are mysteries in the world.
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Post by note on Jun 7, 2006 12:37:22 GMT -5
Perhaps "Simple" is a worker and speaking from a worker's perspective.................? A little discouraged, disheartened.............perhaps with a system that does have some flaws............no one sees the faults like someone who has been there............ to realise that workers are human, just like everyone else in the world and they are sinners, also. Pray for them. They have a hard standard to uphold, but God hears all our prayers, even prayers for workers. God Bless them. They need all the help that comes their way. Pray for them. note; simple never did answer this.
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Simple seduced by vanity
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Post by Simple seduced by vanity on Jun 7, 2006 14:59:17 GMT -5
Simple..so angry, vindictive while nastily judging others and claiming to be "spoken to" by God. I think you have a few "issues" regarding vanity.
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Post by Simple on Jun 7, 2006 16:16:52 GMT -5
Simple..so angry, vindictive while nastily judging others and claiming to be "spoken to" by God. I think you have a few "issues" regarding vanity. Mirror, Mirror on the wall, whose the greatest of them all? I look and what do I see? Certainly not me ! (or you) I would love to hear testimony about journey from the flesh to the spirit. Is their any here? PS - Observations are not judgements !!
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Simple simply seduced
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Post by Simple simply seduced on Jun 7, 2006 20:30:46 GMT -5
Judgemental observations are.
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