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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2010 18:59:11 GMT -5
Hey 'clearday' there would be enormous groundswell support for what you suggest, but none of the workers in charge would commit to anything like it. They would only agree if they were forced by either police or an FBI type investigation. Or if an influential overseer with credibility in handling CSA stood up and put his reputation on the line by insisting that this happen. I don't think you're going to find even that one man of great integrity and resolve, so the work will continue to be fertile ground for criminal sexual abuse. Unfortunately landownunder, you point out a huge barrier to this getting done right. I agree, there are lots of people who would like to see something like this done, and it's not just to protect kids from rogue workers, but also from all sorts of abuse including that within the family. However, the distaste of using an outside consultant is a big barrier. The other barrier would be the willingness/reluctance of the ministry group to put a program like this into the hands of the friends. The great value of using an outside consultant is their wealth of knowledge and experience, plus they would be without biases such either insiders or exes will have. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2010 19:03:18 GMT -5
I'd also suggest that none of the "priesthood" be involved in the management and direction of this CP Body. They must be consulted, though. It may be fortunate that nursing is a preferred profession for many female friends, as many of them would be well on their way towards being appropriately trained. Ongoing traing would also be required - this would need to come out of the budget. If the f&w church had a proper structure, this would be so much simpler. There would be much more transparency with these issues also. You're absolutely right pa1ag1. Nurses would be ideally suited for a role such as this. It wouldn't be a big leap of training for them. And again you're right, a lot of fields will have one or more professional nurses. Frankly, I think that ongoing training wouldn't be a big issue. Once the basic training is put in place, they could keep up with the changes through online training with an organization such as CCPAS. |
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Post by ts on Oct 16, 2010 20:09:22 GMT -5
ts, all the cards need to be put on the table to get this thing right. You are to be commended for highlighting other forms of abuse and problems with the worker lifestyle. It would not make any sense to address only CSA and ignore the other areas of concern. It would only take a little more time, effort and money (?) to go the whole hog. A complete approach is what's needed. Ok, I am nibbling. Just waiting for the hook to set. Go for it. Reel it in!!! ;D |
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Post by ts on Oct 16, 2010 20:27:37 GMT -5
I know there are friends and workers who are counselors who understand abuse. If the workers and friends would rather have an insider, then train insiders. Train workers to be nurses and counselors. It would take a lot of time, but they could be out in the community meeting people. It would not take any more time or resources than building convention grounds and it would be much more profitable.
It looks like what others have been pointing out is that the Fellowship lacks infrastructure. The lack of professionals dedicated to the emotional well being of the abused people is one of those lacks. Professionals who are in charge of policing abuses is another non existent structure.
I propose the worker cars have a 1800 number on the back and a note that says, "How's my preaching?"
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Post by spiders on Oct 16, 2010 22:50:54 GMT -5
Hey 'clearday' there would be enormous groundswell support for what you suggest, but none of the workers in charge would commit to anything like it. They would only agree if they were forced by either police or an FBI type investigation. Or if an influential overseer with credibility in handling CSA stood up and put his reputation on the line by insisting that this happen. I don't think you're going to find even that one man of great integrity and resolve, so the work will continue to be fertile ground for criminal sexual abuse. Sadly I tend to agree......the workers in Vic/Tas are not proactive and tend to see themselves as above the laws of the land. They don't even see it important that convention grounds comply with the necessary health and safety regulations, and will only do so when it is enforced by the authorities. Maybe one of the by products of the current Police investigation into CSA will be the requirement to have proper policies and procedures in place to deal with CSA. It is interesting that the Drouin CIA are investigating the current case and that two conventions are held in Drouin in Dec. Maybe Leigh will be paying a visit to check it all out?? |
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Post by spiders on Oct 16, 2010 22:55:27 GMT -5
pa1ag1, I would suggest that in every field, one of the friends fill a role such as that, and on a voluntary basis. Ideally someone who has some interest or peripheral experience in the that sort of issue. They would take the training necessary to maintain the Child Protection Program and keep the friends in the field up to date on it. First, a Child Protection Program has to be developed, preferably by a professional(s). If enough Friends and Workers get together on this, a professional could evaluate the church activities and risks, then produce a program tailored to the needs of the kids in the church. It may cost $50,000 or so (just a guess and could easily be less), but spread around the world amongst the overseers and involved friends, it would be a pittance to any one individual. I'll be the first to offer $1000 toward engaging a professional to do such a project.......if any of the "behind the scenes" people are reading this. Would the Overseers support this kind of thing where you are Clearday? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2010 23:04:03 GMT -5
pa1ag1, I would suggest that in every field, one of the friends fill a role such as that, and on a voluntary basis. Ideally someone who has some interest or peripheral experience in the that sort of issue. They would take the training necessary to maintain the Child Protection Program and keep the friends in the field up to date on it. First, a Child Protection Program has to be developed, preferably by a professional(s). If enough Friends and Workers get together on this, a professional could evaluate the church activities and risks, then produce a program tailored to the needs of the kids in the church. It may cost $50,000 or so (just a guess and could easily be less), but spread around the world amongst the overseers and involved friends, it would be a pittance to any one individual. I'll be the first to offer $1000 toward engaging a professional to do such a project.......if any of the "behind the scenes" people are reading this. Would the Overseers support this kind of thing where you are Clearday? Yes, I think there is a possibility although I'm not hopeful. It has only been 15 years since the overseers came down on regular workers against advising outside counseling for victims of CSA and other abuse, so things were really backward not long ago. There has been a complete turnover of overseers during that time and it remains to be seen if the new group can turn from self-focus to a genuine child-centered approach of protection. I think most overseers aren't deluded into the idea that we have no problems......they are well aware there are tons of individual problems, and may even be aware of some of the systemic problems, However, the desire to maintain a few images such as "no organization", and "God's only True People" really work against getting some traction on this issue. |
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Post by spiders on Oct 16, 2010 23:08:20 GMT -5
I know there are friends and workers who are counselors who understand abuse. If the workers and friends would rather have an insider, then train insiders. Train workers to be nurses and counselors. It would take a lot of time, but they could be out in the community meeting people. It would not take any more time or resources than building convention grounds and it would be much more profitable. It looks like what others have been pointing out is that the Fellowship lacks infrastructure. The lack of professionals dedicated to the emotional well being of the abused people is one of those lacks. Professionals who are in charge of policing abuses is another non existent structure. I propose the worker cars have a 1800 number on the back and a note that says, "How's my preaching?" Some good ideas ts. The F&W are generally distrustful of outsiders offering to help, however in our experience in VIc/Tas they also don't like insiders offering to help out as well. It would need most of the friends to band together to have any chance of influencing the workers. At this stage I don't see this happening here due the fear of the workers that a lot of people have. You only have to question the workers authority and doctrine here to get excommunicated. We are going back to the dark ages with not much chance of change until there is a change of overseer. (Hence the title of this topic) |
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Oct 16, 2010 23:10:11 GMT -5
pa1ag1, I would suggest that in every field, one of the friends fill a role such as that, and on a voluntary basis. Ideally someone who has some interest or peripheral experience in the that sort of issue. They would take the training necessary to maintain the Child Protection Program and keep the friends in the field up to date on it. First, a Child Protection Program has to be developed, preferably by a professional(s). If enough Friends and Workers get together on this, a professional could evaluate the church activities and risks, then produce a program tailored to the needs of the kids in the church. It may cost $50,000 or so (just a guess and could easily be less), but spread around the world amongst the overseers and involved friends, it would be a pittance to any one individual. I'll be the first to offer $1000 toward engaging a professional to do such a project.......if any of the "behind the scenes" people are reading this. Would the Overseers support this kind of thing where you are Clearday? Nice to hear your views spider. Environmental issues at Conv Grounds and OHS issues, including Bullying and Harrassment are needed, however I sincerely doubt that overseers would relinquish total control and allow this 'interference' in the truth. Until there is a paradigm shift to a proper organisational structure, I don't believe there will be any significant change to the 'secret' management of business. Just my thoughts on the matter. |
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Post by spiders on Oct 16, 2010 23:18:35 GMT -5
I think most overseers aren't deluded into the idea that we have no problems......they are well aware there are tons of individual problems, and may even be aware of some of the systemic problems, However, the desire to maintain a few images such as "no organization", and "God's only True People" really work against getting some traction on this issue. I think this is a valid point CD. The whole culture of exclusivity creates and fosters the idea that what we are doing must be right and that there is no need to change. After all we are God's representatives on earth, so why do things differently? They are not part of the wider body of believers and will therefore not look to other churches to see hoe they have handled issues such as CSA. |
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Post by spiders on Oct 16, 2010 23:31:31 GMT -5
Would the Overseers support this kind of thing where you are Clearday? Nice to hear your views spider. Environmental issues at Conv Grounds and OHS issues, including Bullying and Harrassment are needed, however I sincerely doubt that overseers would relinquish total control and allow this 'interference' in the truth. Until there is a paradigm shift to a proper organisational structure, I don't believe there will be any significant change to the 'secret' management of business. Just my thoughts on the matter. I agree Palag1. Some people have a problem with organisational structures, but the thing that they do provide is accountability. This is the very thing that is lacking amongst the F&W, with the workers in control of all things from putting up tents on conv grounds to preaching! I would have thought that there main purpose in life is to preach the gospel and yet they take 4 to 5 months off each year to attend conv and sp meetings! Maybe we need to employ a consultant to work out a more efficient structure ;D |
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Post by liberated on Oct 16, 2010 23:39:09 GMT -5
Nice to hear your views spider. Environmental issues at Conv Grounds and OHS issues, including Bullying and Harrassment are needed, however I sincerely doubt that overseers would relinquish total control and allow this 'interference' in the truth. Until there is a paradigm shift to a proper organisational structure, I don't believe there will be any significant change to the 'secret' management of business. Just my thoughts on the matter. I agree Palag1. Some people have a problem with organisational structures, but the thing that they do provide is accountability. This is the very thing that is lacking amongst the F&W, with the workers in control of all things from putting up tents on conv grounds to preaching! I would have thought that there main purpose in life is to preach the gospel and yet they take 4 to 5 months off each year to attend conv and sp meetings! Maybe we need to employ a consultant to work out a more efficient structure ;D This only "hit" me recently how much time is spent in preps/conventions and special meetings by workers. Do others have any thoughts on this. Will set up new thread - will be interested to hear comments. |
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Post by JO on Oct 17, 2010 0:39:47 GMT -5
The Peruvian exworker also told that he had NO idea why he'd been excommunicated out of the work.....some of the friends in the states were begging the workers involved with this to let the "church" handle this as in Mt. 18, I think it is...but they were denied that privileged and was told that 3 or 4 workers had gotten together and made the decision for that excommunication. I hope the day comes when these 3 or 4 workers are held accountable for their actions. Is this a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters, taking advantage of a Peruvian worker whose "error" may have been that he was a little too enthusiastic with his Latino hugs? I hope the "behind the scenes" decisions that can be so destructive become a thing of the past as people grow beyond the naivety of trusting "the Lord's anointed" to do the right thing. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2010 8:29:08 GMT -5
The Peruvian exworker also told that he had NO idea why he'd been excommunicated out of the work.....some of the friends in the states were begging the workers involved with this to let the "church" handle this as in Mt. 18, I think it is...but they were denied that privileged and was told that 3 or 4 workers had gotten together and made the decision for that excommunication. I hope the day comes when these 3 or 4 workers are held accountable for their actions. Is this a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters, taking advantage of a Peruvian worker whose "error" may have been that he was a little too enthusiastic with his Latino hugs? I hope the "behind the scenes" decisions that can be so destructive become a thing of the past as people grow beyond the naivety of trusting "the Lord's anointed" to do the right thing. I suspect that the early development of "behind the scenes" efforts in the fellowship began with good intentions: so that no one would get raised up as important. Today, "behind the scenes" is done primarily to eliminate challenge to the status quo. It is much like the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy. Democracies are a bit messy on issues, but amazingly produce results that are good for a broad spectrum of the population.....often anyway. Dictatorships are neat and tidy, but almost always are good for the dictators first. If the Peruvian case is a case of Latino hugs not being appreciated by Anglo people, it is no wonder they cooked up the excommunication in secret because they were pandering. We are most likely to see something similar with the "behind the scenes" CSA work that is apparently going on now. Without transparency, such work will always gravitate to the needs of the "behind the scenes" people, and the status quo. Transparency, on the other hand, would practically ensure, or at least influence, that such work is child-centered, not worker-centered. |
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Post by sharonw on Oct 17, 2010 9:25:00 GMT -5
Would the Overseers support this kind of thing where you are Clearday? Yes, I think there is a possibility although I'm not hopeful. It has only been 15 years since the overseers came down on regular workers against advising outside counseling for victims of CSA and other abuse, so things were really backward not long ago. There has been a complete turnover of overseers during that time and it remains to be seen if the new group can turn from self-focus to a genuine child-centered approach of protection. I think most overseers aren't deluded into the idea that we have no problems......they are well aware there are tons of individual problems, and may even be aware of some of the systemic problems, However, the desire to maintain a few images such as "no organization", and "God's only True People" really work against getting some traction on this issue. Is it true that men who do not have children of their own, tend to kind of look at children as something less then necessary....not that they don't like children, they just don't understand the emotional bond fathers have with their children. |
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Post by sharonw on Oct 17, 2010 9:27:46 GMT -5
Would the Overseers support this kind of thing where you are Clearday? Nice to hear your views spider. Environmental issues at Conv Grounds and OHS issues, including Bullying and Harrassment are needed, however I sincerely doubt that overseers would relinquish total control and allow this 'interference' in the truth. Until there is a paradigm shift to a proper organisational structure, I don't believe there will be any significant change to the 'secret' management of business. Just my thoughts on the matter. I don't think there's going to be enough of a change UNTIL the overseers start facing charges by the legal system for being accessories to the crimes, aiding and abetting things. Accountability seems to be fairly lacking.... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2010 10:20:52 GMT -5
Yes, I think there is a possibility although I'm not hopeful. It has only been 15 years since the overseers came down on regular workers against advising outside counseling for victims of CSA and other abuse, so things were really backward not long ago. There has been a complete turnover of overseers during that time and it remains to be seen if the new group can turn from self-focus to a genuine child-centered approach of protection. I think most overseers aren't deluded into the idea that we have no problems......they are well aware there are tons of individual problems, and may even be aware of some of the systemic problems, However, the desire to maintain a few images such as "no organization", and "God's only True People" really work against getting some traction on this issue. Is it true that men who do not have children of their own, tend to kind of look at children as something less then necessary....not that they don't like children, they just don't understand the emotional bond fathers have with their children. Absolutely true in most cases I think. In my case, I was in my 30's before our first child and it totally changed my view on children, it changed me, you might say. Not that I didn't like them, but I just didn't pay much attention to them or have much consideration for their vulnerabilities. I have a totally different perspective today. Someone I know very well is middle aged and never had kids. When he faced a life-threatening illness, his mother said she wished she could take his place. He was amazed by this and years later is still amazed by it. He mentioned it a couple of times to me and I'm not amazed at all.....I think that would be a fairly common feeling amongst most parents. He would have understood perfectly though if he had had kids himself. Similarly, when that person was facing the life threatening illness, he considered the possibility of waiving treatment and bounced that idea off me. I told him if it was me, I would fight the illness like blazes because I still had kids young and at home.....not for the economic benefits to them, but the emotional benefits. That idea didn't help him much because he didn't have kids, but fortunately, he fought the battle anyway and won it. |
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Post by Gene on Oct 17, 2010 12:08:15 GMT -5
Is it true that men who do not have children of their own, tend to kind of look at children as something less then necessary....not that they don't like children, they just don't understand the emotional bond fathers have with their children. Absolutely true in most cases I think. In my case, I was in my 30's before our first child and it totally changed my view on children, it changed me, you might say. Not that I didn't like them, but I just didn't pay much attention to them or have much consideration for their vulnerabilities. I have a totally different perspective today. Someone I know very well is middle aged and never had kids. When he faced a life-threatening illness, his mother said she wished she could take his place. He was amazed by this and years later is still amazed by it. He mentioned it a couple of times to me and I'm not amazed at all.....I think that would be a fairly common feeling amongst most parents. He would have understood perfectly though if he had had kids himself. Similarly, when that person was facing the life threatening illness, he considered the possibility of waiving treatment and bounced that idea off me. I told him if it was me, I would fight the illness like blazes because I still had kids young and at home.....not for the economic benefits to them, but the emotional benefits. That idea didn't help him much because he didn't have kids, but fortunately, he fought the battle anyway and won it. I totally understand that. Not having children, I'm certain I have no idea the bond between a parent and child from the parent's perspective -- and I daresay that's quite a different kind of bond than that of a child toward the parent. Kids grow up, leave home, become their own individual, and the bond with parents changes. But I don't know about the bond of a parent towards a child; does it ever change, really? And I understand the point about waiving treatment, as well. I think there would be a level of commitment to stay well for the sake of one's partner - but I think the existence of children in a relationship would add definitely add another "desire-to-live" factor - and perhaps a stronger one. |
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Post by emy on Oct 17, 2010 12:11:47 GMT -5
The Peruvian exworker also told that he had NO idea why he'd been excommunicated out of the work.....some of the friends in the states were begging the workers involved with this to let the "church" handle this as in Mt. 18, I think it is...but they were denied that privileged and was told that 3 or 4 workers had gotten together and made the decision for that excommunication. I hope the day comes when these 3 or 4 workers are held accountable for their actions. Is this a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters, taking advantage of a Peruvian worker whose "error" may have been that he was a little too enthusiastic with his Latino hugs? I hope the "behind the scenes" decisions that can be so destructive become a thing of the past as people grow beyond the naivety of trusting "the Lord's anointed" to do the right thing. I'm just a bit curious how many accusations of molestation come from "latino" style hugs. Woe to the worker who has an affectionate nature and loves children. |
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Post by ronhall on Oct 17, 2010 14:19:51 GMT -5
When workers offer to go to a foreign country, I would think they would study the social mores as much as the language to prepare themselves for that venture.
As they say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
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Post by JO on Oct 17, 2010 14:39:43 GMT -5
I hope the day comes when these 3 or 4 workers are held accountable for their actions. Is this a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters, taking advantage of a Peruvian worker whose "error" may have been that he was a little too enthusiastic with his Latino hugs? I hope the "behind the scenes" decisions that can be so destructive become a thing of the past as people grow beyond the naivety of trusting "the Lord's anointed" to do the right thing. I'm just a bit curious how many accusations of molestation come from "latino" style hugs. Woe to the worker who has an affectionate nature and loves children. Emy, having become aware of CSA very close to me I now realise the impact of CSA on a victim is way more destructive than I ever imagined. But I agree, false accusations are a terrible thing for sure. BTW, it seems that it wasn't "latino-style hugs" that landed the brother from Peru into trouble but rather the way he picked up a toddler. His "behind the scenes" trial and conviction were held in his absence. It could be argued that it was good politics to include this unfortunate brother from Peru in the letter. The former overseer would benefit from any false accusation sentiments, and any anger attached to CSA in the ministry would be shared by someone who is effectively unreachable. |
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Post by ts on Oct 17, 2010 14:46:24 GMT -5
Why would a foreign worker be unreachable? Barry Barkley said we were more like a family than an organization. Are the overseas part of the Fellowship the same body of Christ that we are here? Why would any one part of the body be unreachable? If there has been damage to the body, it needs to be addressed and healed. If there is anger towards wrong, it needs to be expressed.
What is this deal about "jurisdiction" when we are all the same body? What if a foreign overseer is involved in womanizing but not anything illegal? Who checks him? Is that harmful to the rest of the body for him to do that? What is the recourse of the rest of the body?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2010 14:49:58 GMT -5
Why would a foreign worker be unreachable? When they are a former worker and no longer attending meetings, they can be effectively unreachable. Those people can make great scapegoats. |
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Post by ts on Oct 17, 2010 14:54:20 GMT -5
Why would a foreign worker be unreachable? When they are a former worker and no longer attending meetings, they can be effectively unreachable. Those people can make great scapegoats. sorry, I didn't get my post modified in time. If a foreign overseer is doing detrimental things like having affairs but nothing illegal is done, it is usually mostly secret. If anyone does speak up, the common response is that 1) they believe the overseer first. 2) it isn't a big deal because it isn't illegal. |
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Post by ts on Oct 17, 2010 14:58:40 GMT -5
There seems to have to be an overwhelming number of "false accusations" towards the man before anyone will consider looking into a matter against an overseer. Especially a sovereign, foreign one. The overseers are usually Americans or some other white, western person who is set up to show the natives the right way of worship. The white overseer has sacrificed so much and is in a foreign land and is largely separate and sovereign in his decisions. He can hide whatever affairs he wants. His "sacrificial" status assures the money rolls in from his home country.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 17, 2010 16:33:39 GMT -5
When workers offer to go to a foreign country, I would think they would study the social mores as much as the language to prepare themselves for that venture. As they say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Poor worker perhaps was led wrong having Ira for companion! |
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Post by sharonw on Oct 17, 2010 16:37:45 GMT -5
Why would a foreign worker be unreachable? When they are a former worker and no longer attending meetings, they can be effectively unreachable. Those people can make great scapegoats. Pretty much the same thing in the MI debacle, eh? |
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Post by rational on Oct 17, 2010 20:09:20 GMT -5
Rational, it is very clear to me that you don't understand the document or the procedures involved. The document was designed in conjunction with the largest police force in the UK. It carries their mark of approval. I think you have only one track thinking when you read the document. You are missing the obvious but I'm not going to go on downward spiralling journey in futile attempts to explain things to you. I've been there, done it and got sick of it. Of course you are. But you are not really explaining anything. I agree that all groups should have a policy on how to deal with child abuse. A coordinator is a great thing. As Scott said, once the investigation is under way - all information should pass through a specific group. You seem upset because I do not agree that the initial reports should be passed through a church member instead of being reported to the authorities. There is a flow chart that outlines what is expected. When abuse is suspected the path is to report it to a church member. Look at it. Is there a path to report crime directly to the authorities? You can spin it any way you want and talk about the largest police force in the UK but with the exception of the piece copied from the police's publication (in which they say to report to the authorities first!) the CoE wants the reports to go through a church member. So you would think. Yet the police recommend reporting directly to them and the church recommends reporting to a church member as a first respnse. Why is it crucial that the church be the gatekeeper? Report abuse to the authorities when it is discovered. Then tell the church member. That way there is no way to avoid the investigation. Or, as we have seen in the past, divert the action that should be taken. Why are you so opposed to have the policy state, as does the policy from the largest police force in the UK and the state police from MI, that the initial report should be filed with the authorities? I have no problem with a policy. There should be one. But the church members should not be in the position to filter reports. Or to try to talk victims out of reporting. Of course. They would be able to filter out anything they thought was untoward. That makes a lot of sense. It at least allows the church to put the correct spin on the report if needed. Or divert it entirely. Just plain common sense. And the authorities will look into the case and make the decision. Especially if it is a high raking church member. Maybe they will repent and there will be no need for a report. Maybe they will no longer be living in the jurisdiction so they will be out of reach. Let's not follow our instincts. Report to the church and let them make the decision if they want to report it or not. Of course. No urgency. Sit back and think about it. Let's see a case of CSA is being reported. Discuss it. Maybe pray about it. See if the criminal is feeling like repenting and saying they are sorry. Don't trust the parent's first instinct. I will bet that the police have phones. I will bet there are forms and procedures in place to deal with reports of sexual child abuse. How much training do you think it takes to file a report with child protective services? Unless they decide it is not something that should be reported. How do you think the churches got to this place in the first place? By talking to the victims and persuading them that it is not something that should be reported. When you file the report give them the name of the church contact. Once the report has been files the representative of the church comes into play. They can then take the point. You are dreaming. You want to move the workers out of overnights but have no problem in letting a church member be the gate keeper. This does nothing to address Cearday's concerns I would like to but you are making them the gate keeper. But they are. The report is made to them and then they decide if it should be reported. ASAP means having the victim call the authorities, not waiting until the church gatekeeper decides if it is worth reporting. Nope. They are a church member that acts as the initial filter for reports of abuse. Depends if they are following what the church says in the publication of if they are only looking at the small piece from the police force. Hopefully they are following what the police (largest in the UK, I have heard) recommend. And yes, there are some who will wait until the coordinator returns just as there are some who will report crimes to the workers. |
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