Vic/Tas requests help from senior workers

[Deleted]

Scott wrote:

Likewise training workers on CSA issues has been done in parts of Canada as well. I got the following info from one of the professing folks that live in Ontario not long ago:

- all the workers in Ontario have now attended a seminar on the subject of CSA

Outside seminar or one provided by other workers?

If outside, was it church-oriented? Was it tailored to the workers' lifestyles of living in homes?

If inside, what training did the worker-trainers receive?

Are the worker-trainers considered professionals in this subject matter?

- From this training the workers now understand the '1 on 1' principle and other issues that will now apply to them because of their positions as ministers of the church.

This is one of the best ways for workers to protect themselves from false accusation.

Did they learn anything more than that such as ideas on how to protect the children?

- The head workers have had some professionals that they have consulted with concerning CSA issues and their responsibilities as ministers.

I like the possibilities of this one.

Did the professionals produce a Child Safety program for them?

Were these professionals lawyers by any chance? Or what kind of professionals were they?

[JO]

Oct 14, 2010 2:19:44 GMT -5 ts said:

Those mentioned are public figures who are held in high esteem. We are advised by Ray that CSA has not diminished Ira's help and labor for souls. Ray is held in high esteem by all of the other overseers. We cannot but trust his words and feelings. To question Ray's judgment of Ira's helpfulness would be to question all of the other overseers who were met at Seneca.

Some victims of CSA might find Ray's words offensive.

TS, FWIW I hear what you are saying.

Both through your earnest plea for godly people to wake up to the ungodliness in the leadership and through your worker-speak posts.

Moving overseers around might be a good idea, but they will need to repent in order to experience God's blessing.

And seek the Lord diligently and faithfully.

"We very much appreciate Ira's guidance and help in every way the past 10 years in Texas. He has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care. I have appreciated his help this year in getting me adjusted to the responsibilities here in Texas. The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done..." - Ray Hoffman

[Linford Bledsoe]

We very much appreciate Ira's guidance and help in every way the past 10 years in Texas. He has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care. I have appreciated his help this year in getting me adjusted to the responsibilities here in Texas. The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done..." - Ray Hoffman

Isn't amazing how Ray could go from hero to outlaw in such a short time. If he was right with Jean couldn't he be right with Ira. Is it that if the wind blows in my favor it's good,but if not in my favor curse the wind. You are confusing me people.

[ronhall]

Oct 14, 2010 14:32:53 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

The reason the seven elders were appointed was because the people came to the apostles and complained of the problem. The apostles then asked the people to choose out the men. . It says then it pleased the people. The point I am making is the reason this issue of csa is being addressed in a better way is because the people themselves are demanding it. Not some outside of the fellowship group. Little do people here know the behind the scene work that has been done to grapple with this problem. The round the table discussions in our homes. It is not being hid in spite of what anyone says.

I am glad you noted that some behind the scene work has been done to grapple with this. There has been no round the table discussion in our home even though this problem is extremely close to us. We also are aware that letters from workers have been circulated around to various ones in our area, but have specifically been excluded from our eyes.

Perhaps it is openly discussed in your area, but I am sad to report that this is definitely not the case here. Any info comes from the rumor mill. Perhaps we are considered wise and prudent and not to be trusted!

If that is so, I am satisfied. However I intend to stay at least one step ahead of them. My ears are to the ground!

[Scott Ross]

Oct 14, 2010 14:32:53 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

The reason the seven elders were appointed was because the people came to the apostles and complained of the problem. The apostles then asked the people to choose out the men. . It says then it pleased the people. The point I am making is the reason this issue of csa is being addressed in a better way is because the people themselves are demanding it. Not some outside of the fellowship group. Little do people here know the behind the scene work that has been done to grapple with this problem. The round the table discussions in our homes. It is not being hid in spite of what anyone says.

The point I am making is the reason this issue of csa is being addressed in a better way is because the people themselves are demanding it.

I agree with you for the most part. I remember when I challenged the men in the truth fellowship to step up to the plate and quit relying on those outside to deal with it and several did just that.

I was contacted for information and then overseers started getting demands for change. I got to know some pretty nice folks from that.

Not some outside of the fellowship group.

Actually..... I think that I will disagree with that.

WINGS has been involved quite heavily in a lot of what has went on, as well as several other 'exes', and yep, you betchya we have had a real impact on what has taken place over the last couple of years. WINGS isn't just what you read about here on the board. Very little that we have done is even posted about.

Little do people here know the behind the scene work that has been done to grapple with this problem. The round the table discussions in our homes. It is not being hid in spite of what anyone says.

Actually it IS being hidden in some places still Lin. That is a fact. The problem that 'some' of the overseers are facing is that authorities are starting to take note of the 'mandated reporter' status of the workers, and those that don't follow the law face having charges brought against them. I believe that was very well presented to the overseers at their training in Chicago.

Where do you think they got the idea of the MinistrySafe training? That came through WINGS you know. (and it was sent to WINGS by a professing lady that suggested that it be presented to the workers)

I do agree with you that now there is a lot of behind the scene work happening now.

Scott

[Deleted]

Scott, that is very interesting. I am heartened that some things are happening behind the scenes, but it does seem to be a very fragmented and piecemeal approach at the moment. Being upfront with their progress would be a big help to those who are looking to them for leadership.

The mandated responsibility that the workers you mention are facing up to shows they are not only seen as, but are acting in their position as Ministers (leaders) of the sect. They are not just ordinary people, but are in responsible mandated position within their church. More and more they are going to have to act as leaders of a religious church sect similar to their peers in other churches. Already the law is twisting their arms in this direction.

[Linford Bledsoe]

Oct 14, 2010 15:47:56 GMT -5 @ram said:

Scott, that is very interesting. I am heartened that some things are happening behind the scenes, but it does seem to be a very fragmented and piecemeal approach at the moment. Being upfront with their progress would be a big help to those who are looking to them for leadership.

The mandated responsibility that the workers you mention are facing up to shows they are not only seen as, but are acting in their position as Ministers (leaders) of the sect. They are not just ordinary people, but are in responsible mandated position within their church. More and more they are going to have to act as leaders of a religious church sect similar to their peers in other churches. Already the law is twisting their arms in this direction.

Scott this mandate responsibility you speak of. Is that hypthetical or an actual case,if so why the overseer?

[landdownunder]

Mandatory reporting of child abuse in Australia

The law varies from state to state. In SA there is a mandated responsibility on ministers of religion.

In NT every adult who becomes aware of CSA has a lawful mandated requirement to report.

In Vic where many of the recent cases amongst workers has come to light, there is no mandated requirement on a minister of religion. However, if such a responsible person were found to have concealed evidence from a police enquiry, police have shown a quick willingness to lay charges of perversion of justice. Police have little tolerance for religious covering up of criminal actions involving children.


As well as actual lawful obligations, every citizen of Australia has a moral and ethical responsibility in our society today, to report to appropriate investigative authorities any instance where a person who is still a child (under age of 16) is to their knowledge a victim of CSA, or where a person they have reasonable grounds to believe is a CSA perpetrator, is in a place where he/she has continued access to children.


Here is a useful summary of legal obligations for mandatory reporting in the various jurisdictions in Australia.

www.aifs.gov.au/nch/pubs/sheets/rs3/rs3.html

[landdownunder]

Where to report in Victoria and Tasmania

For reference, in the states currently of concern, here are the contact details for the responsible authorities.


Victoria
Child Protection and Family Services - Department of Human Services,
www.cyf.vic.gov.au/child-protection-family-services


Tasmania
Child Protection - Department of Health and Human Services
www.dhhs.tas.gov.au/health_and_wellbeing/life_stages/related_topics/youth_health/topics/young_people/related_topics/information_and_education/topics2/children_and_families/related_topics/sexual_assault_services

[JO]

Oct 14, 2010 14:51:26 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

We very much appreciate Ira's guidance and help in every way the past 10 years in Texas. He has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care. I have appreciated his help this year in getting me adjusted to the responsibilities here in Texas. The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done..." - Ray Hoffman

Isn't amazing how Ray could go from hero to outlaw in such a short time. If he was right with Jean couldn't he be right with Ira. Is it that if the wind blows in my favor it's good,but if not in my favor curse the wind. You are confusing me people.

Frankly Lin, I am confused that this man was promoted to overseer AFTER a distraught father was excommunicated for trying to get some action from the overseers. I believe some workers tried to get some action also BEFORE the ten year tour of duty in Texas.

Then when it finally became necessary to remove this man he was praised because he has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care.

Help me with this Lin. Why would we need a CSA perp to seek the Lord for our care?

Why should we have confidence in this kind of leadership?

[DumSpiroSpero]

Oct 14, 2010 16:30:15 GMT -5 landdownunder said:

Mandatory reporting of child abuse in Australia

The law varies from state to state. In SA there is a mandated responsibility on ministers of religion.

In NT every adult who becomes aware of CSA has a lawful mandated requirement to report.

In Vic where many of the recent cases amongst workers has come to light, there is no mandated requirement on a minister of religion. However, if such a responsible person were found to have concealed evidence from a police enquiry, police have shown a quick willingness to lay charges of perversion of justice. Police have little tolerance for religious covering up of criminal actions involving children.


As well as actual lawful obligations, every citizen of Australia has a moral and ethical responsibility in our society today, to report to appropriate investigative authorities any instance where a person who is still a child (under age of 16) is to their knowledge a victim of CSA, or where a person they have reasonable grounds to believe is a CSA perpetrator, is in a place where he/she has continued access to children.


Here is a useful summary of legal obligations for mandatory reporting in the various jurisdictions in Australia.

www.aifs.gov.au/nch/pubs/sheets/rs3/rs3.html

Thank you for this - very relevant information. Unfortunately NSW and Qld are a little slow in catching up in this regard and the mandated responsibility is quite limited. It certainly doesn't include ministers of religion.

It does seem that a lot of the recent action on behalf of senior workers to address CSA has been hastened by:

a. Heightened awareness amongst the friends (TMB is a good example - through learning of the various CSA issues globally on TMB and WINGS, I spoke to some people who have been professing for many decades. They were unaware and shocked that such a thing could happen)

b. Fear of legal repercussions brought about by the mandatory reporting requirements and an eventual realisation by some (it seems, not all) of the serious criminal nature of CSA.

It seems that until people are shamed or legally threatened into action then they are content to sweep it under the carpet.

It is dreadful that it has come to this for [some of] the leaders to realise that the safety of little children is more important than the reputation of offenders, when all the while they've been tut-tutting about how worldly and sinful that 'other' religions are with all of their problems.

[Linford Bledsoe]

Oct 14, 2010 17:28:00 GMT -5 JO said:

Oct 14, 2010 14:51:26 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

We very much appreciate Ira's guidance and help in every way the past 10 years in Texas. He has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care. I have appreciated his help this year in getting me adjusted to the responsibilities here in Texas. The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done..." - Ray Hoffman

Isn't amazing how Ray could go from hero to outlaw in such a short time. If he was right with Jean couldn't he be right with Ira. Is it that if the wind blows in my favor it's good,but if not in my favor curse the wind. You are confusing me people.

Frankly Lin, I am confused that this man was promoted to overseer AFTER a distraught father was excommunicated for trying to get some action from the overseers. I believe some workers tried to get some action also BEFORE the ten year tour of duty in Texas.

Then when it finally became necessary to remove this man he was praised because he has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care.

Help me with this Lin. Why would we need a CSA perp to seek the Lord for our care?

Why should we have confidence in this kind of leadership?

Exactly you got my point. This overseer was put out because there was no choice. The one who put him out had to. Wings et al were excited. Now they find fault because the man says what he has said. Why did he? Because he had to. Is that hard to understand?

[JO]

Oct 14, 2010 17:45:39 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

Oct 14, 2010 17:28:00 GMT -5 JO said:

Frankly Lin, I am confused that this man was promoted to overseer AFTER a distraught father was excommunicated for trying to get some action from the overseers. I believe some workers tried to get some action also BEFORE the ten year tour of duty in Texas.

Then when it finally became necessary to remove this man he was praised because he has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care.

Help me with this Lin. Why would we need a CSA perp to seek the Lord for our care?

Why should we have confidence in this kind of leadership?

Exactly you got my point. This overseer was put out because there was no choice. The one who put him out had to. Wings et al were excited. Now they find fault because the man says what he has said. Why did he? Because he had to. Is that hard to understand?

I think I get it. Ray had to say nice things about the perp because he still had support in high places?

[sharonw]

Oct 14, 2010 14:45:12 GMT -5 JO said:

Oct 14, 2010 2:19:44 GMT -5 ts said:

Those mentioned are public figures who are held in high esteem. We are advised by Ray that CSA has not diminished Ira's help and labor for souls. Ray is held in high esteem by all of the other overseers. We cannot but trust his words and feelings. To question Ray's judgment of Ira's helpfulness would be to question all of the other overseers who were met at Seneca.

Some victims of CSA might find Ray's words offensive.

TS, FWIW I hear what you are saying.

Both through your earnest plea for godly people to wake up to the ungodliness in the leadership and through your worker-speak posts.

Moving overseers around might be a good idea, but they will need to repent in order to experience God's blessing.

And seek the Lord diligently and faithfully.

"We very much appreciate Ira's guidance and help in every way the past 10 years in Texas. He has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care. I have appreciated his help this year in getting me adjusted to the responsibilities here in Texas. The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done..." - Ray Hoffman

To be totally honest, the first time I read Ray Hoffman's thoughts about Ira's helpfulness, it really hit me the wrong way....for two reasons...one is was cancelling out the punishment of kicking Ira out of the work for confession to CSA in the distant past PLUS it negated anything positive that the Peruvian worker may have done in his positions as a foreign worker. I felt like Ray's positive declaration about Ira's overseership was a kick against the CSA allegations against him.....and I felt for a certainty IF Ira had never written that confession "in part", he would have never been demoted or excommunicated out of the work....that was just the feeling Ray's statement gave me at the time.

He perhaps didn't mean it that way, but it sure came off as him standing up for the wolf in sheep's clothing.....

[sharonw]

Oct 14, 2010 17:28:00 GMT -5 JO said:

Oct 14, 2010 14:51:26 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

We very much appreciate Ira's guidance and help in every way the past 10 years in Texas. He has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care. I have appreciated his help this year in getting me adjusted to the responsibilities here in Texas. The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done..." - Ray Hoffman

Isn't amazing how Ray could go from hero to outlaw in such a short time. If he was right with Jean couldn't he be right with Ira. Is it that if the wind blows in my favor it's good,but if not in my favor curse the wind. You are confusing me people.

Frankly Lin, I am confused that this man was promoted to overseer AFTER a distraught father was excommunicated for trying to get some action from the overseers. I believe some workers tried to get some action also BEFORE the ten year tour of duty in Texas.

Then when it finally became necessary to remove this man he was praised because he has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care.

Help me with this Lin. Why would we need a CSA perp to seek the Lord for our care?

Why should we have confidence in this kind of leadership?[/quote]

The losing confidence in IH's ministerial abilities has caused a lot of people some very great pains, making them wonder IF they really are on the right track spiritually! When wolves in Sheeps' clothing lead folks and those folks learn that it was really a wolf all the time...it sure would make for some very serious questions of one's own correctness, rightness.

This is NOT like when a worker leaves the work for some fleshly reason, this is because a worker proves himself to be a criminal and one for many, many years.

[ts]

The fellowship is the only body that should be handling the issue of CSA or other issues regarding the church. That is because this fellowship is the body of Christ and those outside the fellowship are not of the body of Christ. If there are saved people outside of this fellowship, they will eventually be a part of this fellowship without exception. The outsiders who are handling the CSA cases are not led by the Holy Spirit but are using man's wisdom. The gospel is the only answer. The gospel has the power to heal and cast out demons. The meddling of the disgruntled and outsiders has only stirred up things and made things public that God was handling in private. As well, the workers and friends, whom are accused of not handling the situation, were handling the situation in private and in godly wisdom. The reason that no one knows that they were handling the situation is because they do not advertise their help and work. That is the humble approach. You would expect such humility and wisdom from God's true servants. No one really knows how many cases were actually reported to proper authorities and taken care of privately and decently where both parties received justice and healing and validation. Once the necessary steps are taken, the victims can begin healing and come back to meetings if they are out of meetings. That is the place where they will receive healing in the atmosphere of the Lord's presence. The victims may have received natural help from good people in other churches. But the spiritual help is going to come from the workers.

[Deleted]

I was a little puzzled by Ray's comment too, but if Ray believed that Ira had truly repented, maybe he was just following along the line of Paul when he said that the person who repented of his sexual sin who had been ostracized/shunned should be welcomed back in so that he wouldn't lose out. I was a little underwhelmed with Ira's letter, myself--but I don't know him, so don't know his personality.

[Deleted]

Sharon, the way I interpreted the positive part of Ray's letter was that it was part of his attempt to play to all parties, knowing that Ira had plenty of supporters. He was thinking of the aftermath and handled it with a certain degree of political skill imo. There was something for everyone in the letter.

Oct 14, 2010 18:40:00 GMT -5 sharonw said:

Oct 14, 2010 14:45:12 GMT -5 JO said:

TS, FWIW I hear what you are saying.

Both through your earnest plea for godly people to wake up to the ungodliness in the leadership and through your worker-speak posts.

Moving overseers around might be a good idea, but they will need to repent in order to experience God's blessing.

And seek the Lord diligently and faithfully.

"We very much appreciate Ira's guidance and help in every way the past 10 years in Texas. He has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care. I have appreciated his help this year in getting me adjusted to the responsibilities here in Texas. The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done..." - Ray Hoffman

To be totally honest, the first time I read Ray Hoffman's thoughts about Ira's helpfulness, it really hit me the wrong way....for two reasons...one is was cancelling out the punishment of kicking Ira out of the work for confession to CSA in the distant past PLUS it negated anything positive that the Peruvian worker may have done in his positions as a foreign worker. I felt like Ray's positive declaration about Ira's overseership was a kick against the CSA allegations against him.....and I felt for a certainty IF Ira had never written that confession "in part", he would have never been demoted or excommunicated out of the work....that was just the feeling Ray's statement gave me at the time.

He perhaps didn't mean it that way, but it sure came off as him standing up for the wolf in sheep's clothing.....

[DumSpiroSpero]

Oct 14, 2010 20:11:16 GMT -5 hberry said:

I was a little puzzled by Ray's comment too, but if ray believed that Ira had truly repented, maybe he was just following along the line of Paul when he said that the person who repented of his sexual sin who had been ostracized/shunned should be welcomed back in so that he wouldn't lose out. I was a little underwhelmed with Ira's letter, myself--but I don't know him so don't know his personality.

There still seems to be confusion between sin and crime. Paul was speaking of immorality, not illegality. Paul also spoke of matters that we would call 'civil' issues, as opposed to criminal issues. Immorality is not necessarily crime - there are no laws against adultery in our modern criminal justice system (there may be in family court, but that's civil, not criminal)

Titus 3:1 (King James Version)
¹Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, ²To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

or if you prefer 'The Message'

Titus 3:1-2 (The Message)
Remind the people to respect the government and be law-abiding, always ready to lend a helping hand. No insults, no fights. God's people should be bighearted and courteous.

From Titus, you would read that Paul expects us to obey the laws of the land

Matthew 22:15-21 KJV
¹⁵Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
¹⁶And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. ¹⁷Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
¹⁸But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? ¹⁹Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
²⁰And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
²¹They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

And again, from "the Message"
^15-17 That's when the Pharisees plotted a way to trap him into saying something damaging. They sent their disciples, with a few of Herod's followers mixed in, to ask, "Teacher, we know you have integrity, teach the way of God accurately, are indifferent to popular opinion, and don't pander to your students. So tell us honestly: Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
^18-19 Jesus knew they were up to no good. He said, "Why are you playing these games with me? Why are you trying to trap me? Do you have a coin? Let me see it." They handed him a silver piece.
²⁰"This engraving—who does it look like? And whose name is on it?"
²¹They said, "Caesar."
"Then give Caesar what is his, and give God what is his."
²²The Pharisees were speechless. They went off shaking their heads.

It's pretty evident from this discourse that Jesus expects us to obey the law of the land also (I don't think it's much of a stretch to go from paying tax to obeying laws)

So, in spite of all the 'sin' and 'spirituality' issues, we still have a 'crime' issue that won't go away. In Australia, there is no statute of limitations applicable to serious inictable offences. So, if a person commited a CSA offence 30 or 40 years ago, they could (and should, depending on whether the victim wanted to proceed) still be charged for the offence, no matter how sorry or repentant they may have been.

If the victim decided that they didn't want to proceed, then the DPP (Prosecutor) would not be able to proceed with the case. It is only in that case that the matter should not be dealt with by the authorities. I am also aware that in a closed society such as the friends, influence could be brought to bear on a victim to not raise a complaint or not testify against the offender.

This page www.tfyqa.biz/index.php?id=176 provides good discussion on limitation periods, in regard to CSA (in Qld)

[JO]

Oct 14, 2010 20:05:05 GMT -5 ts said:

The fellowship is the only body that should be handling the issue of CSA or other issues regarding the church. That is because this fellowship is the body of Christ and those outside the fellowship are not of the body of Christ. If there are saved people outside of this fellowship, they will eventually be a part of this fellowship without exception. The outsiders who are handling the CSA cases are not led by the Holy Spirit but are using man's wisdom. The gospel is the only answer. The gospel has the power to heal and cast out demons. The meddling of the disgruntled and outsiders has only stirred up things and made things public that God was handling in private. As well, the workers and friends, whom are accused of not handling the situation, were handling the situation in private and in godly wisdom. The reason that no one knows that they were handling the situation is because they do not advertise their help and work. That is the humble approach. You would expect such humility and wisdom from God's true servants. No one really knows how many cases were actually reported to proper authorities and taken care of privately and decently where both parties received justice and healing and validation. Once the necessary steps are taken, the victims can begin healing and come back to meetings if they are out of meetings. That is the place where they will receive healing in the atmosphere of the Lord's presence. The victims may have received natural help from good people in other churches. But the spiritual help is going to come from the workers.

You were well trained in the work TS.

[ronhall]

Oct 14, 2010 20:05:05 GMT -5 ts said:

The fellowship is the only body that should be handling the issue of CSA or other issues regarding the church.

Untrue, since the criminal act of CSA and other similar issues are done with no regard or respect for the church whatsoever. Therefore are not under the jurisdiction of the church.

That is because this fellowship is the body of Christ and those outside the fellowship are not of the body of Christ.

I used to believe this, since I was taught from a child to believe it. Recently as I learned late in life that this church was started by a man, the same as other churches has caused me to believe it no longer.

If there are saved people outside of this fellowship, they will eventually be a part of this fellowship without exception.

That was also something I was taught to believe as a child, but in these parts at least, any who want to become a part of this fellowship must profess in a Gospel meeting and be baptized by workers. If they were previously saved outside this fellowship, their existing profession and baptism would be sufficient.

The outsiders who are handling the CSA cases are not led by the Holy Spirit but are using man's wisdom.

The perpetrators of CSA as well as those overseers who allowed them access into the fellowship again to recommit were not led by the Holy Spirit. (The term "suffer little children" was apparently a term they misunderstood, hopefully in their ignorance.)

The gospel is the only answer.

Instruct your kids to tell that to their math teacher.

The gospel has the power to heal and cast out demons.

There is no power in the gospel whatsoever. The power comes by obedience to the Holy Spirit. The reason the demon of CSA has been allowed free course in our fellowship is because those promoting it were not under the power of the Holy Spirit.

The meddling of the disgruntled and outsiders has only stirred up things and made things public that God was handling in private.

After many years of no concern to the problem of CSA it was sadly the disgruntled and outsiders that caused the tide to turn. God was not handling it because shamefully God was not in it.

As well, the workers and friends, whom are accused of not handling the situation, were handling the situation in private and in godly wisdom.

Yep, they sure were handling it in private and under a god spelled with a small "g"!

The reason that no one knows that they were handling the situation is because they do not advertise their help and work.

The reason no one knows that they were handling the situation is because they were shifting the perpetrators around so they could re-offend. Of course they wouldn't want to advertise that, and they didn't.

That is the humble approach. You would expect such humility and wisdom from God's true servants.

I would expect them to respect the law of the land. The reason they didn't is because they were too proud to admit there was any error within their good ol' boy club.

No one really knows how many cases were actually reported to proper authorities and taken care of privately and decently where both parties received justice and healing and validation.

Interesting that you would include the term "validation". Guess that describes it pretty well.

Once the necessary steps are taken, the victims can begin healing and come back to meetings if they are out of meetings.

The saying, "Fool me once and it's your fault -- fool me twice and it's my fault." comes to mind.

That is the place where they will receive healing in the atmosphere of the Lord's presence.

The Lord resides in the atmosphere? That's an interesting point of doctrine.

The victims may have received natural help from good people in other churches.

For shame, you say?

But the spiritual help is going to come from the workers.

The bitterness of CSA one day and the sweetness of spiritual help the next?

I would suspect that if any have read much of this, you would get the idea that I don't hold whitewashing with "worker speak" in very high regard. If that is the case, you are absolutely correct.

[rational]

Oct 14, 2010 12:38:18 GMT -5 @ram said:

It is sad indeed because, looking at the flowchart on page 10, it is clear this is a document that does not address dealing with child abuse by church members.

Alright. You look at the flow chart and see where there is any indication of looking into abuse from a church member (Unless int was a parent).
I know what the title says. I actually read beyond that.
But then maybe I missed that leg of the flow chart.

Rational, thanks for reminding me just why I had decided I had had enough of exchanging views with you. You are quite simply unbelievable!

I know what you mean. Having reality pointed out can be a pain.

I will remind you of the title of the document,

Safe & Secure - Ensuring the well-being of children and young people "WITHIN" the church community!"

I see that. Titles do not impress me.

You quite obviously haven't thought about the document but grasped at what you saw was a chink of light to keep your argument going.

Nope. I read what the church said and it is clear that they want all reports to initially go through them before it gets reported to the authorities.
Do ahead - look at the flow chart. Is there a path to the authorities that does not pass through a church member?

The route forward as Clearday says is for the F&W's church to hire professional consultants at whatever cost, to design proper Child Protection policies and procedures, in conjunction with certain elders and workers, taking into account appropriate laws and guidelines.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me you are against such a direction?

No, I am in favor of such a move. I am against any plan that puts church members between the incident and reporting it to the authorities.

I certainly favour such a move and have surrendered my previous standing in favour of it.

Then we agree.

[sharonw]

Oct 14, 2010 20:16:31 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Sharon, the way I interpreted the positive part of Ray's letter was that it was part of his attempt to play to all parties, knowing that Ira had plenty of supporters. He was thinking of the aftermath and handled it with a certain degree of political skill imo. There was something for everyone in the letter.

Oct 14, 2010 18:40:00 GMT -5 sharonw said:

To be totally honest, the first time I read Ray Hoffman's thoughts about Ira's helpfulness, it really hit me the wrong way....for two reasons...one is was cancelling out the punishment of kicking Ira out of the work for confession to CSA in the distant past PLUS it negated anything positive that the Peruvian worker may have done in his positions as a foreign worker. I felt like Ray's positive declaration about Ira's overseership was a kick against the CSA allegations against him.....and I felt for a certainty IF Ira had never written that confession "in part", he would have never been demoted or excommunicated out of the work....that was just the feeling Ray's statement gave me at the time.

He perhaps didn't mean it that way, but it sure came off as him standing up for the wolf in sheep's clothing.....

Well, perhaps that is what Ray was trying to do except he crucified the Peruvian worker without support his supporters!

[Deleted]

I am against any plan that puts church members between the incident and reporting it to the authorities.

Rational, I think you are missing the whole point with this one. Of course all appropriate cases should be reported to the police or other investigating agencies as soon as possible. In matters of ongoing or urgent cases it is highly likely the police would be the first point of reporting, due to urgency and logistics etc.

One of the main reasons behind having CSA coordinators in a church is to "ensure" that cases ARE reported to the authorities. They also play a valuable role in liaising between the church community and the investigating services. An extremely valuable two way link is established.

Church CSA coordinators are not meant to replace reporting to the police. In many situations, particularly ongoing ones, or those recently discovered, they are likely to be informed after the police etc. We live in a real life world.

The policies designed for groups like the Church of England were done in consultation with the Metropolitan Police, the Government, NSPCC, Crown Prosecution Service etc. That's the way they have agreed things should be done.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2010 7:44:06 GMT -5 @ram said:

I am against any plan that puts church members between the incident and reporting it to the authorities.

Rational, I think you are missing the whole point with this one. Of course all appropriate cases should be reported to the police or other investigating agencies as soon as possible. In matters of ongoing or urgent cases it is highly likely the police would be the first point of reporting, due to urgency and logistics etc.

One of the main reasons behind having CSA coordinators in a church is to "ensure" that cases ARE reported to the authorities. They also play a valuable role in liaising between the church community and the investigating services. An extremely valuable two way link is established.

Church CSA coordinators are not meant to replace reporting to the police. In many situations, particularly ongoing ones, or those recently discovered, they are likely to be informed after the police etc. We live in a real life world.

The policies designed for groups like the Church of England were done in consultation with the Metropolitan Police, the Government, NSPCC, Crown Prosecution Service etc. That's the way they have agreed things should be done.

You're right ram, and there's more to it than just reporting.

That's one of my concerns with the "behind the scenes" work going on in the F&W leadership right now. Does it mean that the new rule is to report to legal authorities and then think that all duties have been duly performed? I hope not, because there is a lot more work that has to be done from there ranging from supporting the victim, making sure that others are informed to reduce their risk from the particular alleged offender. Preventive measures also need to be developed and put in place. Reporting is just a faint beginning.

[Scott Ross]

Oct 14, 2010 15:53:07 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

Oct 14, 2010 15:47:56 GMT -5 @ram said:

Scott, that is very interesting. I am heartened that some things are happening behind the scenes, but it does seem to be a very fragmented and piecemeal approach at the moment. Being upfront with their progress would be a big help to those who are looking to them for leadership.

The mandated responsibility that the workers you mention are facing up to shows they are not only seen as, but are acting in their position as Ministers (leaders) of the sect. They are not just ordinary people, but are in responsible mandated position within their church. More and more they are going to have to act as leaders of a religious church sect similar to their peers in other churches. Already the law is twisting their arms in this direction.

Scott this mandate responsibility you speak of. Is that hypthetical or an actual case,if so why the overseer?

You quoted ram and then asked me a question.....

I am guessing this is what you were referring to:

Actually it IS being hidden in some places still Lin. That is a fact. The problem that 'some' of the overseers are facing is that authorities are starting to take note of the 'mandated reporter' status of the workers, and those that don't follow the law face having charges brought against them. I believe that was very well presented to the overseers at their training in Chicago.

The reason that the overseer would be targeted by the authorities is because the overseer will be seen as the one responsible for an act of CSA (or suspicion of CSA) not being reported. While ALL workers are considered to be mandated reporters, if a worker (or friend or whoever) contacts the overseer and the overseer tells them 'I'll take care of it", then he has just made a decision based on his position within the church. The one that reported to him now has reported the issue to the 'highest ranking member' of their local church, and would therefore probably be seen as having 'reported' the CSA with the belief that the overseer is going to legally and spiritually take care of the matter.

If the overseer does NOT report this information he is guilty of breaking the law and is simply seen as a criminal by the authorities

I am pretty sure that this issue was brought to the attention of the overseers in the training that they recently received.

Scott

[Deleted]

Thanks CD. Every Christian should be wary of allowing "opportunities" for perpetrators to commit their dastardly deeds. For "opportunity" they should read "temptation" or "allowing temptation." Jesus prayed "Lead us not into temptaion" i.e. opportunity to sin!

Jesus himself realised that opportunity was a primary factor in sin/crime, long before the criminologists put it clearly on our plate. Sin or crime prevention has a huge amount to do with limiting opportunities.

Regarding the behind the scenes goings on. I'm sure I share your concerns 100% but I do allow a fair degree of understanding for the naivity and fish out of water position of the workers and even the friends. To drag them out too quickly from the depths will destroy the way, no doubt about it. That's one of the reasons I suggested emergency measures to buy time to work out proper procedures and let a bit of daylight in.

The main thing is that the closed society needs to be abandoned and fast. It has no place in the 21st century. The closed shop gave unaccountable and unchallenged power to those in charge. That's a very difficult position for those in charge to willingly relinquish. This just might be where the main problem lies? How to tackle CSA and other related matters without introducing too much accountability and openness? Self-preservation first. Children second.

The curtains have to be drawn apart and fully. Only through true openness will we see the needful direction you suggest.

They need to stop thinking they are God or God led with so much of their dealings when it is obvious as in the present circumstances they are not. They are human and are human nature led.

It behoves us though to be fair and understanding with them and have some patience. If they surface too fast they will suffer from the "bends." Right now some will be feeling a tad compressed. However, they have to be seen to be willingly getting into the decompression chamber.

[Scott Ross]

Oct 14, 2010 17:45:39 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

Oct 14, 2010 17:28:00 GMT -5 JO said:

Frankly Lin, I am confused that this man was promoted to overseer AFTER a distraught father was excommunicated for trying to get some action from the overseers. I believe some workers tried to get some action also BEFORE the ten year tour of duty in Texas.

Then when it finally became necessary to remove this man he was praised because he has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care.

Help me with this Lin. Why would we need a CSA perp to seek the Lord for our care?

Why should we have confidence in this kind of leadership?

Exactly you got my point. This overseer was put out because there was no choice. The one who put him out had to. Wings et al were excited. Now they find fault because the man says what he has said. Why did he? Because he had to. Is that hard to understand?

Exactly you got my point. This overseer was put out because there was no choice. The one who put him out had to. Wings et al were excited. Now they find fault because the man says what he has said. Why did he? Because he had to. Is that hard to understand?

Why do you feel that there was no choice? Why do you feel that Ray had to?

You mentioned on another thread that things were being discussed around the tables and such, and I can guarantee that this issue was certainly being discussed.

I know of 7 overseers that were involved in one way or another in what took place, so this wasn't something just done 'willy-nilly' by Ray.

And when you say:

Wings et al were excited. Now they find fault because the man says what he has said. Why did he? Because he had to. Is that hard to understand?

Can you point to where WINGS has found fault with what Ray had to say?

Here is part of what is on WINGS:

....This makes the third time in less than a year that a letter has been sent out to the friends in an entire state by an overseer, openly and honestly dealing with the issue of child molestation by
workers in their field. It shows a willingness on the part of overseers to deal openly, honestly and lawfully with the issue of Child Sexual Abuse when it is brought to the overseers' attention.

Ray also pointed out that if anyone suspects that their children were abused that they should contact the authorities before contacting him.

The WINGS group wholeheartedly endorses the letter sent by Ray, and wishes to thank him on behalf of all those professing folks who have contacted us concerning the issue of CSA, and
also on behalf of those who have shared their stories of abuse.....

wingsfortruth.info/rayhoffmanfinal.pdf

That is from the comments from WINGS concerning Ray's letter.

wingsfortruth.info/breakingthesilence.htm

I really am curious as to why you think that Ray had to do what he did. Was he under some kind of threat? Please tell us your reasoning behind that statement, and what you think would have happened if Ray did not take action. Thanks

Again, please inform all of us where they find fault because the man says what he has said.
Thanks,

Scott