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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2010 18:36:25 GMT -5
Write him yourself or ask someone you trust who has heard from him. Actually, I don't care enough to bother. I do care about ethics and moral processes; but that is as far as my involvement goes. I admit to being vaguely amused by all the hair-pulling and shirt-tearing lamentation. Haven't people realised yet that the Fellowship is a sinking ship? It's going to be gone in 40, or 50 years precisely because of this fear of technology and inability to promote and declare the gospel and God's glory (among other things). Perhaps it is God's favour withdrawn. Anybody who invests themselves in the Fellowship, from a business stand-point, is going down a track that terminates in failure. The Fellowship has not only lost entire families in recent years, but also is not sustaining itself from within. "Natural growth" is where your church continues because you baptise your kids, basically. We aren't even doing that. We might baptise one kid out of every four born, if we're lucky, two. If outsiders come in to profess, it is usually hailed as a miracle. And so it is. Statistically, if you manage to find the meetings you're lucky, and if you stay and listen to what is sometimes very poor communication for a year of Sundays, if you accept the convoluted doctrine-that-is-not-doctrine, and if you finally profess, the chances of it happening are so overwhelmingly remote, that it must surely be a miracle if it happens at all! Few people "get" that it is the result of putting so many hurdles in front of seeking souls, that to get to the end of the track requires superhuman persistence. For me, the greatest pull-back is the lack of intellectual freedom, and the criticism that happens whenever one uses their brain. I have always loved the Scriptures and God, and always wondered why people have reacted poorly to my mentioning research on particular issues. Now I know. Probably the same forces that may have been involved in this blog going down. I do not seriously doubt that this was the reason (although I do give Clearday a hard time sometimes). I hate the enforced idleness. I would dearly love to start a Bible study group, or go from door-to-door sharing the gospel, or write promotional brochures and hand them out, or start a website or magazine for the Friends. I would love to do anything like that because I love the Gospel. But if I tried any of these, I would be shunned (imagine arriving to the meetings with a stack of magazines - they would be burned!). If I asked the Workers, they would reject all proposals in favour of the status quo (which is a colossal failure that is getting worse and worse). I wonder how many people are in my circumstances. Passionate, energetic, young, and deeply moved to share the Good News, but are left on their keisters for all that energy to fade away or be channelled elsewhere. There's no energy for the gospel - anywhere. It's not like it was 30 odd years ago when I was a boy. People believed it back then - that it was actually true - and were firery, passionate. Some of those old Workers boomed their convictions to the stars. People were eager to defend their faith, promote their faith. It's gone. The passion has gone, and invariably, the faith will follow. This is an earlier post by Jason to get the ball rolling. I have bolded the phrase (intentionally provocative) in Jason's post that is used in the title. The mod team believe this type of discussion is important and can do us good to think about. |
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Post by ronhall on Apr 16, 2010 19:09:40 GMT -5
Actually, I don't care enough to bother. I do care about ethics and moral processes; but that is as far as my involvement goes. I admit to being vaguely amused by all the hair-pulling and shirt-tearing lamentation. Haven't people realised yet that the Fellowship is a sinking ship? It's going to be gone in 40, or 50 years precisely because of this fear of technology and inability to promote and declare the gospel and God's glory (among other things). Perhaps it is God's favour withdrawn. Anybody who invests themselves in the Fellowship, from a business stand-point, is going down a track that terminates in failure. The Fellowship has not only lost entire families in recent years, but also is not sustaining itself from within. "Natural growth" is where your church continues because you baptise your kids, basically. We aren't even doing that. We might baptise one kid out of every four born, if we're lucky, two. If outsiders come in to profess, it is usually hailed as a miracle. And so it is. Statistically, if you manage to find the meetings you're lucky, and if you stay and listen to what is sometimes very poor communication for a year of Sundays, if you accept the convoluted doctrine-that-is-not-doctrine, and if you finally profess, the chances of it happening are so overwhelmingly remote, that it must surely be a miracle if it happens at all! Few people "get" that it is the result of putting so many hurdles in front of seeking souls, that to get to the end of the track requires superhuman persistence. For me, the greatest pull-back is the lack of intellectual freedom, and the criticism that happens whenever one uses their brain. I have always loved the Scriptures and God, and always wondered why people have reacted poorly to my mentioning research on particular issues. Now I know. Probably the same forces that may have been involved in this blog going down. I do not seriously doubt that this was the reason (although I do give Clearday a hard time sometimes). I hate the enforced idleness. I would dearly love to start a Bible study group, or go from door-to-door sharing the gospel, or write promotional brochures and hand them out, or start a website or magazine for the Friends. I would love to do anything like that because I love the Gospel. But if I tried any of these, I would be shunned (imagine arriving to the meetings with a stack of magazines - they would be burned!). If I asked the Workers, they would reject all proposals in favour of the status quo (which is a colossal failure that is getting worse and worse). I wonder how many people are in my circumstances. Passionate, energetic, young, and deeply moved to share the Good News, but are left on their keisters for all that energy to fade away or be channelled elsewhere. There's no energy for the gospel - anywhere. It's not like it was 30 odd years ago when I was a boy. People believed it back then - that it was actually true - and were firery, passionate. Some of those old Workers boomed their convictions to the stars. People were eager to defend their faith, promote their faith. It's gone. The passion has gone, and invariably, the faith will follow. While I "hear you", understand exactly what you are saying and tend to think the same way, I believe from the depths of my believing that something more than my understanding is at play. While the numbers certainly seem to be declining in most parts, this is not without precedent. The prophet of old thought he was the last one living who hadn't bowed to Baal, yet there were thousands of background type folks that hadn't. Some believe there is a thread of professing folks back to the "shores of Galilee" (Nathan9) and some think there was a huge gap -- and -- and most don't want to think about it at all. I am one who believes there were small scattered groups of Christians over the world throughout the ages since Jesus days on earth. Of course I cannot prove it, but I believe it. Concerning the fiery workers who boomed their convictions to the stars -- yes, they had a lot of passion and in their day their passion displayed in that manner drew a lot of people in. How do you think such a passionate display would go over today? Yet, there is an evidence of passion in the workers and overseers. It is just displayed in a more subdued fashion that is right for the times. Case in point -- a young couple from the west with a two-year-old are getting started in another area of the country. New job, fairly small apartment, had some extensive health problems but are getting along OK now. During the special meeting rounds the overseer stayed with them for a day or two in their humble situation. But he was so kind and helpful during his stay that they instantly grew to love the man. This is the work behind the scenes that will bind the saints together better than any amount of fiery preaching, in my opinion. A person can hear fiery preaching ad nauseum cheaply on the radio and TV most anywhere in America at any time. But a little kindness speaks out volumes above any of that. Again, just my opinion. |
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Post by emy on Apr 16, 2010 19:13:46 GMT -5
Thanks!
<< I am one who believes there were small scattered groups of Christians over the world throughout the ages since Jesus days on earth. Of course I cannot prove it, but I believe it. >>
I agree.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Apr 16, 2010 20:02:46 GMT -5
The problem is looking at a denomination. If you look at the bigger picture of the Kingdom of God you wont be so upset. Let God build his church/body. Allow him to sort out the things that need to be dealt with instead of standing by people who do criminal things to children. The Holy Spirit wont remain where the masses are controled by controlling spirits. He will retreat and leave a movement that isnt honoring him, or cares about what Gods plan is. Mans agenda sooner or later will fall or become dead instead of alive to Christ.
About 11yrs plus ago a family member expressed concern about dropping numbers in 'the truth', the workers then were very worried at that time.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Apr 16, 2010 20:07:22 GMT -5
ronhall
[Some believe there is a thread of professing folks back to the "shores of Galilee" (Nathan9) and some think there was a huge gap -- and -- and most don't want to think about it at all.
I am one who believes there were small scattered groups of Christians over the world throughout the ages since Jesus days on earth. Of course I cannot prove it, but I believe it.]
You all/everyone need to be careful that you dont allow this topic to become an idol in your heart.
Jesus Christ is far more important than whether or not the 2x2's originated in Galilee.
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Post by emy on Apr 16, 2010 21:12:43 GMT -5
ronhall [Some believe there is a thread of professing folks back to the "shores of Galilee" (Nathan9) and some think there was a huge gap -- and -- and most don't want to think about it at all. I am one who believes there were small scattered groups of Christians over the world throughout the ages since Jesus days on earth. Of course I cannot prove it, but I believe it.] You all/everyone need to be careful that you dont allow this topic to become an idol in your heart.
Jesus Christ is far more important than whether or not the 2x2's originated in Galilee. No danger of it being an idol to me. It's just what makes sense about the Lord's church. |
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Post by someguy on Apr 16, 2010 23:02:04 GMT -5
No danger of it being an idol to me. It's just what makes sense about the Lord's church. In my opinion anyone who is unsure of their salvation in another church outside the f&w well, it is an idol to them. If your faith truly is in Christ our Lord, you would be fine in any church even in the f&w. Whether or not I go to meetings, I am safe in Jesus Christ my Lord, but there are those who insist that it is not an idol to them but yet couldn't go to any other gathering. So, maybe it isn't an idol but heck, yikes that is a scary place to stand. To think that your attendance in one church secures your place in heaven. Emy, we are all the Lords church, all believers. Even those who no longer go to the f&w version of church. |
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Post by emy on Apr 17, 2010 5:53:03 GMT -5
No danger of it being an idol to me. It's just what makes sense about the Lord's church. In my opinion anyone who is unsure of their salvation in another church outside the f&w well, it is an idol to them. If your faith truly is in Christ our Lord, you would be fine in any church even in the f&w. Whether or not I go to meetings, I am safe in Jesus Christ my Lord, but there are those who insist that it is not an idol to them but yet couldn't go to any other gathering. So, maybe it isn't an idol but heck, yikes that is a scary place to stand. To think that your attendance in one church secures your place in heaven. Emy, we are all the Lords church, all believers. Even those who no longer go to the f&w version of church. Was this directed to me personally? I'm just wondering if you don't agree that throughout the last 2000 years there have been people brought together in groups, small or otherwise, because of the "common faith" and like fellowship with the Father and Son? (1 John 1:7) |
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Post by ronhall on Apr 17, 2010 8:03:28 GMT -5
No danger of it being an idol to me. It's just what makes sense about the Lord's church. In my opinion anyone who is unsure of their salvation in another church outside the f&w well, it is an idol to them. If your faith truly is in Christ our Lord, you would be fine in any church even in the f&w. Whether or not I go to meetings, I am safe in Jesus Christ my Lord, but there are those who insist that it is not an idol to them but yet couldn't go to any other gathering. So, maybe it isn't an idol but heck, yikes that is a scary place to stand. To think that your attendance in one church secures your place in heaven. Emy, we are all the Lords church, all believers. Even those who no longer go to the f&w version of church. One scriptural passage that relates is the one concerning "lively stones" placed in the wall by the master builder. In that regard, I was B & R in this fellowship and have continued in it through my adult life, supporting it and it supporting me. That leads me to believe the master builder placed me here. As a living stone, I do have the ability to remove myself and possibly find another place to be supportive and supported. However, is that in the will of the master builder? What happens if the only place available is too large for me and as time passes it is found out there is no integrity in the gaps around my new position? Or worse yet, I'm too big to fit well and stick out proud of the other stones in that structure? So I do feel that for me to jump out and become a Mormon or Lutheran, for example, might badly jeopardize my salvation. However, I do know very fine people in those religions. |
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Post by kiwi on Apr 17, 2010 22:09:33 GMT -5
In my opinion anyone who is unsure of their salvation in another church outside the f&w well, it is an idol to them. If your faith truly is in Christ our Lord, you would be fine in any church even in the f&w. Whether or not I go to meetings, I am safe in Jesus Christ my Lord, but there are those who insist that it is not an idol to them but yet couldn't go to any other gathering. So, maybe it isn't an idol but heck, yikes that is a scary place to stand. To think that your attendance in one church secures your place in heaven. Emy, we are all the Lords church, all believers. Even those who no longer go to the f&w version of church. One scriptural passage that relates is the one concerning "lively stones" placed in the wall by the master builder. In that regard, I was B & R in this fellowship and have continued in it through my adult life, supporting it and it supporting me. That leads me to believe the master builder placed me here. As a living stone, I do have the ability to remove myself and possibly find another place to be supportive and supported. However, is that in the will of the master builder? What happens if the only place available is too large for me and as time passes it is found out there is no integrity in the gaps around my new position? Or worse yet, I'm too big to fit well and stick out proud of the other stones in that structure? So I do feel that for me to jump out and become a Mormon or Lutheran, for example, might badly jeopardize my salvation. However, I do know very fine people in those religions. But isn't what you have, Faith? and not a religion? |
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Post by someguy on Apr 18, 2010 1:35:18 GMT -5
Was this directed to me personally? I'm just wondering if you don't agree that throughout the last 2000 years there have been people brought together in groups, small or otherwise, because of the "common faith" and like fellowship with the Father and Son? (1 John 1:7) I agree I just wondered if your definition of the Lords Church was all believers or only believers of a home church. Sort of different. I believe there has always been people who have believed in Jesus, small or otherwise because of this common faith in Him. |
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Post by sharonw on Apr 21, 2010 19:43:09 GMT -5
ronhall [Some believe there is a thread of professing folks back to the "shores of Galilee" (Nathan9) and some think there was a huge gap -- and -- and most don't want to think about it at all. I am one who believes there were small scattered groups of Christians over the world throughout the ages since Jesus days on earth. Of course I cannot prove it, but I believe it.] You all/everyone need to be careful that you dont allow this topic to become an idol in your heart.
Jesus Christ is far more important than whether or not the 2x2's originated in Galilee. No danger of it being an idol to me. It's just what makes sense about the Lord's church. Emy1 It may make human sense...but it sure does limit the power of the Holy Spirit.... John the Baptist told the Pharisees when they came to him to be baptized and he spoke his mind against their wickedness and they rebuked him because they thought they had every right because they were children of Abraham....John the Baptist told them right then and there that God was well able to raise up children out of the stones at the Pharisees feet. That mentioned, there is NO need to have had a consecutive line of church members from the shores of Galilee...God's ability to raise children up out of nothing is awesome and when we get over the need to that to be our history that we come from along line of faithful people....then we will get to know the true power or God in our individual lives.
Don't sell God's power so short....that's not showing full faith in the power of the Holy Spirit in individual's lives....God will save whom He will save and there's not one thing we can justify it with in a long lineage of forebears within a church membership....that was Jesus' angst with the Pharisees....they had the law down to a science but their hearts did not know the power of God in them! |
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Post by emy on Apr 21, 2010 23:13:57 GMT -5
That mentioned, there is NO need to have had a consecutive line of church members from the shores of Galilee... I don't believe I said anywhere that I believed in a consecutive line of church members. Just that throughout the centuries since Christ there have always been believers who were drawn together by common faith. |
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Post by ronhall on Apr 23, 2010 19:02:46 GMT -5
Just been thinking about this for a couple of days.
Perhaps what is happening is the ship is being lightened to make it more responsive in preparation for future storms of life.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 24, 2010 10:04:48 GMT -5
Just been thinking about this for a couple of days. Perhaps what is happening is the ship is being lightened to make it more responsive in preparation for future storms of life. The lightening of ships does not usually mean able bodied people though...lighten it too much of people...who is going to man the oars when the motor quits working? eh? |
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Post by ronhall on Apr 24, 2010 17:25:17 GMT -5
That was just a comment to shift the point of view on this subject to another direction.
God was able to get a large number of folks free of Egypt, across the Red Sea, etc., but only a few of those believed enough to gain the promised land. Obviously they all were able bodied enough to be able to weather the storms of the wilderness.
I personally know whole families who have been offended and left - meanwhile the poor workers are going to a lot of effort holding Gospel meetings to bring others in. We've remained close friends with these folks and it just seems a few sincere words of apology might go a long ways toward healing the hurt they are feeling.
I just don't know, its beyond me. I could go half crazy trying to figure it all out, lose sleep and all that! So I just press on, doing what I can and let God do the rest.
Guess no one picked up on my 'God must be a democrat joke". :>)
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isi
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Post by isi on Apr 26, 2010 4:59:08 GMT -5
The common theme - amazing as I read this on Friday- all over the world- is the lack of love noted and people leaving in droves....The closed minded workers- and lack of ability to allow a person 'with a brain' to share- All I can say- is listen- as that is what god is wanting you to all do' listen' to those who have left- there is a huge message in what all of them- brave enough to share are telling you all that are still in the way- the basis is wrong- its about rules and judgement- its not about being christian, passionate or loving- I dont actually think I saw any of that as a child or an adult- only from my father- from others- just judgement and teasing/ plus laughter- no love, welcoming, no charity and definitely no warmth. From my perspective def a sinking ship - ' a light or what ever in storms'- I feel so bitter just reading that- how self righteous and lacking of an open heart and mind- rather than 'thinking you are special and saved' - listen, open your heart and get out there and be like Jesus- versus thinking you are going to be 'saved. Thats what I hated the most about the truth and way- that the rich ones and those that raved on at the meetings- really believed that they were going to heaven....nothing about being a good person- and loving people without judgement as christ did.
Get a grip.
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isi
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Post by isi on Apr 26, 2010 5:01:19 GMT -5
Oh and if I come back tomorrow and have been 'removed' then you just proved exactly what I heard a woman in the truth trying to tell everyone when I was a child- 'you think I am mad' versus having an open mind. 'she this lady was just having a bad day!!!!!!!
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Post by Admin on Apr 26, 2010 6:58:08 GMT -5
Oh and if I come back tomorrow and have been 'removed' then you just proved exactly what I heard a woman in the truth trying to tell everyone when I was a child- 'you think I am mad' versus having an open mind. 'she this lady was just having a bad day!!!!!!! isi, welcome and you won't be "removed" from here for speaking your mind. This is an open forum and hopefully can be a healing environment. God gave us brains and most here believe we're meant to use them. The day the workers encourage those thinkers you mention, who read the bible with open minds rather than just wanting everyone to mindlessly follow certain creeds, will be the day the ship starts steaming away from the rocks. If our church motto was truly "all one in Christ Jesus" then a sign of maturity and genuine love would be a tolerance of the vastly different people we all are. In another post you asked about F&W. F is for friends and W for workers. The F&W church, for want of a better name. |
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Post by JO on Apr 26, 2010 14:51:49 GMT -5
That mentioned, there is NO need to have had a consecutive line of church members from the shores of Galilee... I don't believe I said anywhere that I believed in a consecutive line of church members. Just that throughout the centuries since Christ there have always been believers who were drawn together by common faith. I agree emy. There are probably some near you, but are you drawn to them? |
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julio
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Post by julio on Apr 27, 2010 5:43:43 GMT -5
Isi, I'm sorry you've had such an unhappy experience in the fellowship. What you say has been lacking is very much evident in our meeting, and others I've been to across the U.S. Although there are differences in tradition, culture, and yes, 'rules', the unity of the spirit is evident. Our elder spoke of precious things Sunday - 'like' precious faith, etc. 'like' is the unity part. And there is very much caring and concern for each other. And charity - divine love. Although, not without some problems.... one family was feeling quite disappointed in some others, and through much visiting and encouragement, and bible studies, there was such a softness and kindness at the meeting. He even stated he loved one of the people who is the most unloveable! That can only be the spirit of our Lord working!
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moline
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Post by moline on Apr 27, 2010 23:03:48 GMT -5
To Isi
You have been very brave to leave the 2x2 church . Gods children are found all over the world , they are part of God's universal church , The church is not a religon, it is not a way, it is not a building , it is not a denomination , his church are his people and are found worshiping him in sicerety and truth all over the world and many different gatherings in many different denominations and churches. I only hope you do not lose your faith in jesus , find a good Christ centered church in your area , in fact I would suggest ou attend ALL churches in your area and choose one in which you feel the Spirit drawing you
God bless
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isi
New Member
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Post by isi on May 2, 2010 7:57:43 GMT -5
I nearly didnt come back onto this site I felt so torn after all the writing I did. However thank you is all I can say from those who shared....maybe there is a place where I can find peace after all. I definitely have great faith in god and in his son- that is unchanging within me. Thank you and great love to all who did support me. God bless you all back. Isi
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Post by CherieKropp on May 2, 2010 11:12:04 GMT -5
isi - I wrote you a Private Message (a PM)
To access it: click on private messages at the top of the home page where it says:
Hey isi, you have ___ messages, ___are new.
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