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Post by ronhall on Jul 26, 2010 21:13:49 GMT -5
So you don't have children - and you know exactly what I was getting at. Good!  I and most I know have always viewed workers as human, glad for those who didn't but do now. I'm pretty sure most workers themselves would be very uncomfortable with people viewing them as super human and infailable. As for those who didn't but do now, I am one of those. After considering how this notion might have come about, I'd have to say that it was directly from the workers themselves in their preaching that they are, as the early apostles were, led by the spirit. For if they were truly led by the spirit, they would be, by default, super human and infallible. I no longer believe that this is generally true and am amazed at my foolish trust for not coming to this realization long ago. At this point I seriously wonder which ones, if any, might be actually spirit led. When I read here about the two directions that the spirit presumably leads them concerning D&R, how can it be ever said they are under the same spirit? |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jul 26, 2010 21:15:28 GMT -5
all the hot spots the workers have been put in in the last couple of years attest to the lack of God's blessing, IMO That's cool, sharon, but what does your opinion about religion or workers or God have to do with CSA? Look, there are three types of people who will be reading this letter: 1. f&w's, who will be offended by the insinuation that God has abandoned them, 2. exes, who are happy to gloat (whether true or not, that's how it is perceived) that the f&w's screwed up, and 3. guys like me who get really irritated that an issue as important as CSA is suddenly being demeaned by mixing it in with religious squabblings like whether some all-powerful invisible friend approves or disapproves. In all cases, supernatural speculation does more harm than good. CSA issues should be kept on a higher level than religion. |
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Post by ScholarGal on Jul 26, 2010 21:17:20 GMT -5
Jesse, even today you seem sceptical and resentful when CSA is exposed. I think it would be more accurate to say that Jesse is "resentful" of the church being "blamed" for the CSA. Though I may not agree with all of his opinions, I respect him for his efforts to educate people. Jesse has take direct and specific action in getting the workers educated on the definition, effects, and prevention of CSA. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 26, 2010 21:18:39 GMT -5
I wasn't that way 15 years ago. Jesse, even today you seem sceptical and resentful when CSA is exposed. If anything makes me skeptical and question motives it's broad brush bashing. When a Breaking the Silence letter is 51% - 93% bash and as little as 7% CSA related it naturally looks like CSA is being used as an excuse to bash. There are those who've written Breaking the Silence letters with no bash content - so I know it's possible. And that's the way I was 15 years ago. |
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Post by StAnne on Jul 26, 2010 21:19:28 GMT -5
I agree with Rational. I don't have a religion. I do have a relationship with God. Lin, could you define religion for us please? I would like to know what is so distasteful about the following definitions of religion (to you) that you would deny having one. I'm speaking of the general sense of the definitions. How can you (honestly) say that you don't have a religion. 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religionReligion (from O.Fr. religion "religious community," from L. religionem (nom. religio) "respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods God,"[1] "obligation, the bond between man and the gods God"[2] is the belief in and worship of God or gods, or more in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion(yes, I modified this definition to more closely define what I hold to be true and what I believe many here would agree with...) |
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Post by JO on Jul 26, 2010 21:25:06 GMT -5
Jesse, you must accept that its difficult for a little child CSA victim to understand that God is permitting the worker to do this and God will deliver his elect in his time. Little children must learn to trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. God is using these experiences to purify his elect. If you teach your children they can approach you with anything, while raising them in a church culture that insists God himself is controlling it, then they will probably keep it to themselves. JO I was reading Matt 5 the other day and ran across this; Meekness toward God is that disposition of spirit in which we accept His dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting. In the OT, the meek are those wholly relying on God rather than their own strength to defend against injustice. Thus, meekness toward evil people means knowing God is permitting the injuries they inflict, that He is using them to purify His elect, and that He will deliver His elect in His time (Isa 41:17, Luk 18:1-8). Gentleness or meekness is the opposite to self-assertiveness and self-interest. It stems from trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. The gentle person is not occupied with self at all. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of the human will (Gal 5:23). -> Source Ahab in Moby Richard was consumed with stamping out injustice and evil symbolized in the white whale - and it killed him in the end. The code of the sea was not to stamp out evil, it was to help the Rachel look for her lost children.  |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 26, 2010 21:33:25 GMT -5
So you don't have children - and you know exactly what I was getting at. Good! I and most I know have always viewed workers as human, glad for those who didn't but do now. I'm pretty sure most workers themselves would be very uncomfortable with people viewing them as super human and infailable. As for those who didn't but do now, I am one of those. After considering how this notion might have come about, I'd have to say that it was directly from the workers themselves in their preaching that they are, as the early apostles were, led by the spirit. For if they were truly led by the spirit, they would be, by default, super human and infallible. I no longer believe that this is generally true and am amazed at my foolish trust for not coming to this realization long ago. At this point I seriously wonder which ones, if any, might be actually spirit led. When I read here about the two directions that the spirit presumably leads them concerning D&R, how can it be ever said they are under the same spirit? But Ron surely you believe you are led by the Spirit don't you? Does that make you perfect and infallible? Of course not - not in the carnal sense! Remember the Spirit is willing but the flesh (carnal) is weak, remember that about yourself - and others - even workers. After all it's Paul that said that. Even though our carnal is not perfect the Spirit work God does in all of us is perfect - it cannot be otherwise! The blood of the final sin offering covers the repented of failures of our carnal flesh in a way God doesn't remember they happened - should we? |
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 26, 2010 21:36:44 GMT -5
If anything makes me skeptical and question motives it's broad brush bashing. When a Breaking the Silence letter is 51% - 93% bash and as little as 7% CSA related it naturally looks like CSA is being used as an excuse to bash. There are those who've written Breaking the Silence letters with no bash content - so I know it's possible. 51%-93% is quite the difference there. The first 2 3/4 pages of a 5 1/4 page document is all about what happened to her, who did it, and who knew about it. No matter how the letters are perceived, they are expressing the experiences and the feelings of the ones that wrote them. It is hardly surprising to me when someone that was abused by a worker then shows a dislike for the organization that the worker represents. Especially in the cases where other workers were aware of the abuse and didn't take care of the issue. (in reference to all letters on WINGS) also it is hardly surprising to me that there is going to be animosity directed to the church and other workers in those cases. These are the real experiences and real feelings of those that wrote the stories. Nope they aren't a 'fun read', and they make a lot of people angry and upset to read them. Just think of how the experiences these people went through in the truth fellowship led them to feel the way they do. Once these issues begin to be dealt with immediately, there won't be too many of these letters in the future. Scott 
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 26, 2010 21:39:57 GMT -5
JO I don't know  , I'm not done thinking about that yet...  I know that it rains on the just and unjust, and that time and chance happens to all. That's what we tried to teach our kids. It would be interesting to know God's thoughts on the matter. One thing is for sure, all that's carnal will one day pass away. It's then there will be no more sorrow or tears. That's the day to remember. Jesse, you must accept that its difficult for a little child CSA victim to understand that God is permitting the worker to do this and God will deliver his elect in his time. Little children must learn to trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. God is using these experiences to purify his elect. JO I was reading Matt 5 the other day and ran across this; Meekness toward God is that disposition of spirit in which we accept His dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting. In the OT, the meek are those wholly relying on God rather than their own strength to defend against injustice. Thus, meekness toward evil people means knowing God is permitting the injuries they inflict, that He is using them to purify His elect, and that He will deliver His elect in His time (Isa 41:17, Luk 18:1-8). Gentleness or meekness is the opposite to self-assertiveness and self-interest. It stems from trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. The gentle person is not occupied with self at all. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of the human will (Gal 5:23). -> Source Ahab in Moby Richard was consumed with stamping out injustice and evil symbolized in the white whale - and it killed him in the end. The code of the sea was not to stamp out evil, it was to help the Rachel look for her lost children. |
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Post by rational on Jul 26, 2010 21:47:00 GMT -5
I was not raised to hate TV nor to treat the workers as anything but people. So you had workers who were pro-TV or at least not anti-TV? Sounds like a different religion than the one I was raised in. I don't ever recall asking them what they thought about it. They were preachers not people who ruled my life. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 26, 2010 22:06:13 GMT -5
Scott, I've read every Breaking the Silence letter. I remember this comment;
Still the broad brush painting doesn't surprise me either. What really made me notice was the letters and comments like that above that had none of it. I noticed the broad brush content used a lot of the exact same paint that's also used by the counter advocacy. The percentages came from putting the Breaking the Silence letters into word, doing a word count of what was CSA related and what wasn't. Some were 100% CSA related, one was 7% CSA related, the last one was about 50/50.
It is what it is.
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Post by StAnne on Jul 26, 2010 22:16:37 GMT -5
all the hot spots the workers have been put in in the last couple of years attest to the lack of God's blessing, IMO That's cool, sharon, but what does your opinion about religion or workers or God have to do with CSA? Look, there are three types of people who will be reading this letter: 1. f&w's, who will be offended by the insinuation that God has abandoned them, 2. exes, who are happy to gloat (whether true or not, that's how it is perceived) that the f&w's screwed up, and 3. guys like me who get really irritated that an issue as important as CSA is suddenly being demeaned by mixing it in with religious squabblings like whether some all-powerful invisible friend approves or disapproves. In all cases, supernatural speculation does more harm than good. CSA issues should be kept on a higher level than religion. Perception (you're probably correct) or no perception...speaking for myself...no gloating. Further saddened by the sins of impurity (following learning of the beginnings of 1897) but no gloating. |
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Post by ronhall on Jul 26, 2010 22:25:58 GMT -5
But Ron surely you believe you are led by the Spirit don't you? Does that make you perfect and infallible? Of course not - not in the carnal sense! Remember the Spirit is willing but the flesh (carnal) is weak, remember that about yourself - and others - even workers. After all it's Paul that said that. Even though our carnal is not perfect the Spirit work God does in all of us is perfect - it cannot be otherwise! The blood of the final sin offering covers the repented of failures of our carnal flesh in a way God doesn't remember they happened - should we? Jesse, that is a terribly searching question. How could I know? Not too long ago I would have answered yes -- because it led me to a belief consistent with what others of the fellowship within my circle of acquaintances believed. Within the past year or so this seems to have been reversed. While I understand and agree with what you have said, in theory, how can it not be said the true spirit must be able to overcome the carnal? If it can't be said, should one even consider that a true spirit is working and not a false one? And if several men are all being led by the same spirit, wouldn't they all be seen taking the same direction? I don't mean to sound so discouraged, but how can I believe in the power of the spirit when it takes an internet Wings site staffed by some who profess, some who don't and some who once did to force the right response to a CSA issue? Who is being led by the spirit? And who is not, as evidenced by the fact that Wings has to spread each individual issue around the world for all to see, before the doing the right thing is even considered. How can anyone trust that such a leadership might be led by the spirit? So do I feel I am led by the spirit? I dunno, any more. Sorry to be so negative on this issue. I hope there's a lot that I don't understand presently, but will understand differently in the future. |
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Post by juliette on Jul 26, 2010 22:30:54 GMT -5
Jesse, even today you seem sceptical and resentful when CSA is exposed. If anything makes me skeptical and question motives it's broad brush bashing. When a Breaking the Silence letter is 51% - 93% bash and as little as 7% CSA related it naturally looks like CSA is being used as an excuse to bash. There are those who've written Breaking the Silence letters with no bash content - so I know it's possible. And that's the way I was 15 years ago. Jesse: I know that you love your church. I know that CSA pains you, and that you have worked on this issue within your church. But like Scott said previously, can you see that a victim of CSA within your church would have very negative feelings about your church, especially if it was at the hands of a minister or elder in the church? I would expect that this would be true of any organization. Victims of CSA within the Catholic church would mostly likely have negative feelings about the Catholic church, and victims of abuse at the hands of a scout leader would probably have negative feelings about Boy Scouts, etc. etc. I think that this is only natural. I don't think you should be offended about this. It is what it is, and the victims have the right to their pain, hurt and anger. You probably shouldn't be looking for unbiased or positive opinions about your church from this group. Juli |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 22:56:33 GMT -5
You and Scott are exactly right Julie.
Instead of our church reacting this way:
"Stop broad brush bashing us."
We should be reacting this way:
"Bash us all you like.....you deserve it and so do we."
It's the Jesus Way to be willing to carry the load of sin. Christians who do so, repent from their own errors, and turn the other cheek will always be better for it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 23:30:35 GMT -5
Look at the first church. They lost their leader; they squabbled over doctrine; they were nearly all killed; many of their converts became apostates who eventually did the rest of them in.
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Post by emy on Jul 26, 2010 23:38:55 GMT -5
Jesse, even today you seem sceptical and resentful when CSA is exposed.   You have clearly not been paying attention. |
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Post by rational on Jul 26, 2010 23:40:50 GMT -5
Jesse, you must accept that its difficult for a little child CSA victim to understand that God is permitting the worker to do this and God will deliver his elect in his time. Difficult? You don't think impossible would be a better word? Inconceivable? I find it impossible that anyone would believe god would permit the abuse of an innocent child as an object lesson. And if someone does believe god permits abuse to teach a lesson I find it more difficult to believe that anyone would venerate a being that would allow a child to suffer to teach a lesson. Oh, there's a great lesson. Someone is abusing you? Don't worry. This is a demonstration of god's goodness. God's in control of the situation. No need to tell anyone. What would be the point? It's god's will. Sure. Don't mind the pain or the fact that you will potentially messed up for the rest of your life. These people are doing god's work. Actually I am wondering is this is serious or if you're putting me on. Most people are trying to get people to understand that priests, workers, ministers, etc. are just people who have no right to sexually abuse anyone. And here you are advocating teaching children that they just need to trust in god because s/he is in control. That the evil deeds that people do to children are all part of god's plan. So if the child does report the abuse they are really going against the will of god. The child would be preventing the purification of god's elect. And who would want to be accused of that? |
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Post by emy on Jul 26, 2010 23:47:05 GMT -5
So you don't have children - and you know exactly what I was getting at. Good! I and most I know have always viewed workers as human, glad for those who didn't but do now. I'm pretty sure most workers themselves would be very uncomfortable with people viewing them as super human and infailable. As for those who didn't but do now, I am one of those. After considering how this notion might have come about, I'd have to say that it was directly from the workers themselves in their preaching that they are, as the early apostles were, led by the spirit. For if they were truly led by the spirit, they would be, by default, super human and infallible. I no longer believe that this is generally true and am amazed at my foolish trust for not coming to this realization long ago. At this point I seriously wonder which ones, if any, might be actually spirit led. When I read here about the two directions that the spirit presumably leads them concerning D&R, how can it be ever said they are under the same spirit? RonHall, do you not consider YOURSELF led by the Spirit? I thought that was a requirement for anyone who claims Jesus as Savior. Is any human being (except Jesus) perfectly led by the Spirit? Not that I am aware, but as we grow spiritually, we should be letting the Spirit lead more. ("I must decrease, He must increase") When I think of the D&R division, I like to remember the account of Eli and his sons. How long do you think that "problem" (corrupt priesthood) went on before Samuel was old enough to return integrity to the office? It makes me want to be a Hannah - prayng and trusting in God so much that she even gave her son to live among a corrupt priesthood. |
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Post by JO on Jul 26, 2010 23:47:43 GMT -5
I see it as Clearday stated - our church has failed, the leadership has failed, and we should accept the criticism and be penitant about it. The attitude that "God will fix the problems in his own time" is not what the bible teaches me. God gives us a free will, and we can mess up our church just as easily as we can mess up our family, our nation or our world. The messages to the churches in Revelations were for man to repent and put things right - not wait for God to fix it. Goliath was defeated when David was distressed enough about the inadequacy of the leadership to fix the problem (in God's strength of course). Citicism by those who thought it was Saul and the army's responsibility didn't stop him. JO I don't know , I'm not done thinking about that yet... I know that it rains on the just and unjust, and that time and chance happens to all. That's what we tried to teach our kids. It would be interesting to know God's thoughts on the matter. One thing is for sure, all that's carnal will one day pass away. It's then there will be no more sorrow or tears. That's the day to remember. Jesse, you must accept that its difficult for a little child CSA victim to understand that God is permitting the worker to do this and God will deliver his elect in his time. Little children must learn to trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. God is using these experiences to purify his elect. |
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Post by emy on Jul 26, 2010 23:48:55 GMT -5
Jesse, even today you seem sceptical and resentful when CSA is exposed. I think it would be more accurate to say that Jesse is "resentful" of the church being "blamed" for the CSA. Though I may not agree with all of his opinions, I respect him for his efforts to educate people. Jesse has take direct and specific action in getting the workers educated on the definition, effects, and prevention of CSA. Right on, SG. Glad someone is paying attention. |
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Post by emy on Jul 26, 2010 23:51:15 GMT -5
As for those who didn't but do now, I am one of those. After considering how this notion might have come about, I'd have to say that it was directly from the workers themselves in their preaching that they are, as the early apostles were, led by the spirit. For if they were truly led by the spirit, they would be, by default, super human and infallible. I no longer believe that this is generally true and am amazed at my foolish trust for not coming to this realization long ago. At this point I seriously wonder which ones, if any, might be actually spirit led. When I read here about the two directions that the spirit presumably leads them concerning D&R, how can it be ever said they are under the same spirit? But Ron surely you believe you are led by the Spirit don't you? Does that make you perfect and infallible? Of course not - not in the carnal sense! Remember the Spirit is willing but the flesh (carnal) is weak, remember that about yourself - and others - even workers. After all it's Paul that said that. Even though our carnal is not perfect the Spirit work God does in all of us is perfect - it cannot be otherwise! The blood of the final sin offering covers the repented of failures of our carnal flesh in a way God doesn't remember they happened - should we? Could have saved my typing if I had kept reading! |
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Post by JO on Jul 27, 2010 0:01:21 GMT -5
Don't worry Rational - I was trying to apply someone else's logic to CSA. Even Jesse is not sure about this yet:JO I was reading Matt 5 the other day and ran across this; Meekness toward God is that disposition of spirit in which we accept His dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting. In the OT, the meek are those wholly relying on God rather than their own strength to defend against injustice. Thus, meekness toward evil people means knowing God is permitting the injuries they inflict, that He is using them to purify His elect, and that He will deliver His elect in His time (Isa 41:17, Luk 18:1-8). Gentleness or meekness is the opposite to self-assertiveness and self-interest. It stems from trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. The gentle person is not occupied with self at all. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of the human will (Gal 5:23). -> Source Jesse, you must accept that its difficult for a little child CSA victim to understand that God is permitting the worker to do this and God will deliver his elect in his time. Difficult? You don't think impossible would be a better word? Inconceivable? I find it impossible that anyone would believe god would permit the abuse of an innocent child as an object lesson. And if someone does believe god permits abuse to teach a lesson I find it more difficult to believe that anyone would venerate a being that would allow a child to suffer to teach a lesson. Oh, there's a great lesson. Someone is abusing you? Don't worry. This is a demonstration of god's goodness. God's in control of the situation. No need to tell anyone. What would be the point? It's god's will. Sure. Don't mind the pain or the fact that you will potentially messed up for the rest of your life. These people are doing god's work. Actually I am wondering is this is serious or if you're putting me on. Most people are trying to get people to understand that priests, workers, ministers, etc. are just people who have no right to sexually abuse anyone. And here you are advocating teaching children that they just need to trust in god because s/he is in control. That the evil deeds that people do to children are all part of god's plan. So if the child does report the abuse they are really going against the will of god. The child would be preventing the purification of god's elect. And who would want to be accused of that?
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Post by kiwi on Jul 27, 2010 3:46:22 GMT -5
I agree with Rational. I don't have a religion. I do have a relationship with God. I grew up in a religion (anti-TV) and didn't have any choice in that. I appreciate that my parents didn't swallow all the koolaid even though they swallowed a fair bit of it. Just because you had that that don't mean that others did  |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 27, 2010 7:08:10 GMT -5
all the hot spots the workers have been put in in the last couple of years [ b]attest to the lack of God's blessing,[/b][/color] IMO[/quote]That's cool, sharon, but what does your opinion about religion or workers or God have to do with CSA? Look, there are three types of people who will be reading this letter: 1. f&w's, who will be offended by the insinuation that God has abandoned them, 2. exes, who are happy to gloat (whether true or not, that's how it is perceived) that the f&w's screwed up, and 3. guys like me who get really irritated that an issue as important as CSA is suddenly being demeaned by mixing it in with religious squabblings like whether some all-powerful invisible friend approves or disapproves. In all cases, supernatural speculation does more harm than good. CSA issues should be kept on a higher level than religion.[/quote] I only come to that conclusion because of what the workers themselves have preached in gone-by days and what the bible itself says about "knowing". Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. ' I do not consider multiple accountings of CSA crimes and rapes to be "good fruit", do you? And THAT alone is a testimony of God not blessing the workership. It IS sad for it does paint ALL the workership black as Ed A. put it, but the workers who have NOT dealt with the known CSA perps in the legal and correct manner have brought this all down on the whole workership and we cannot deny that. I DO NOT like thinking of some of the workers now long gone who were part of this coverup, it hurts me greatly because these were workers I knew and loved, but to find out they were part of the coverup? That increases my grief! I'm sorry but that's how I see it. |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 27, 2010 7:20:52 GMT -5
But Ron surely you believe you are led by the Spirit don't you? Does that make you perfect and infallible? Of course not - not in the carnal sense! Remember the Spirit is willing but the flesh (carnal) is weak, remember that about yourself - and others - even workers. After all it's Paul that said that. Even though our carnal is not perfect the Spirit work God does in all of us is perfect - it cannot be otherwise! The blood of the final sin offering covers the repented of failures of our carnal flesh in a way God doesn't remember they happened - should we? Jesse, that is a terribly searching question. How could I know? Not too long ago I would have answered yes -- because it led me to a belief consistent with what others of the fellowship within my circle of acquaintances believed. Within the past year or so this seems to have been reversed. While I understand and agree with what you have said, in theory, how can it not be said the true spirit must be able to overcome the carnal? If it can't be said, should one even consider that a true spirit is working and not a false one? And if several men are all being led by the same spirit, wouldn't they all be seen taking the same direction? I don't mean to sound so discouraged, but how can I believe in the power of the spirit when it takes an internet Wings site staffed by some who profess, some who don't and some who once did to force the right response to a CSA issue? Who is being led by the spirit? And who is not, as evidenced by the fact that Wings has to spread each individual issue around the world for all to see, before the doing the right thing is even considered. How can anyone trust that such a leadership might be led by the spirit? So do I feel I am led by the spirit? I dunno, any more. Sorry to be so negative on this issue. I hope there's a lot that I don't understand presently, but will understand differently in the future. Ron, I think we can take comfort in knowing that God allows the principalities and leaders of the law to lead mankind out of the depths of depravity, oppression and sin....that said, would it not be of the Holy Spirit's leading to bring out of the hidden darkness those things that are of a depraved behaviour, that is a crime? Or is purely immoral? Regardless of who perpetuated that? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2010 7:28:43 GMT -5
One difference between then and now is that then there wasn't a lot of moral clarity on the issue of CSA. They knew it was wrong but believed it was a minor infraction where the victim was only temporarily hurt ("he/she will get over it"), hence the coverup didn't seem so wrong. The law itself lacked clarity and teeth.
Today, if anyone lacks moral clarity on the severity of this violation, they should not be in any position of moral leadership.....or any other leadership for that matter.
If people in leadership today are too lazy to learn about the issue and its damaging effects on victims, then they should at least follow the law which has made good strides in recent decades to guide those who need to be controlled by law.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 27, 2010 10:07:13 GMT -5
I'm gonna quote Sharon; 1Cr 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. 1Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat : for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. 1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? When we put the stress on the outward appearance of our faith, then we are "yet carnal", are we not? All of us reading this are "yet carnal". The carnal body is our vehicle from eternity to eternity. But it won't always be our body. We get to get rid of it one day. So while we live in this carnal body we understand very well the Spirit is willing but flesh is weak, what I think that realization should do is make us look more for the Spirit work in our brethren and less at the carnal. We need to be especially careful to not think what's carnal is spiritual, or that what's spiritual is carnal. What this means in actual practice is not beating ourselves others up with carnal failures - repent, forgive, and to God it's as if they never happened. God's grace is sufficient - but carnal Man's all too often isn't. Carnal faults and failures doesn't automatically mean the Spirit isn't at work. There will be carnal thorns but again God's promised his grace will be sufficient in spite of them. That's what we need to remember about ourselves and our neighbors. Tampering with forgiven sin is serious business. Look alleged CSA cover-up, look at every criticism of our neighbors, is what we see as moats and beams attributable to the work of the Spirit or the works of the carnal? I'd say they are carnal thorns. And just because there's a carnal thorn present doesn't mean the spiritual work is not there. That's carnal thinking. The question to ask is; should we look on our neighbor's potentially repented of and forgiven sin as God does, or as the one who accuses us day and night? I'll put it this way, I think accusation is born of the carnal and is about carnal failures, it's looking at others through carnal eyes. Intercession is a spiritual virtue that helps us see others through spiritual eyes. When we think of treating our neighbors as we would want to be treated - ask yourself - which would you rather have, which would you rather be - an intercessor or an accuser? Intercessors bridge strife and divisions, accusers inflame strife and divisions. It is kind of interesting exercise to at least once in a while look for only what's good in others, it's amazing how much good we will see when it's the good we are looking for. Helps us understand why all things are pure unto the pure, because what's good is what they think about; whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise. |
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Prayers for all who have requested prayer, or for whom prayer has been requested.
, I'm not done thinking about that yet... 
You have clearly not been paying attention.