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Post by ronhall on Jul 26, 2010 8:42:15 GMT -5
I can understand the responses to the shock of hearing about this; some in denial, some in confirmation, some accepting, some rejecting, but most just saddened, the category I am in presently.
In addition to the wreck and ruin to the lives of those poor young souls who were considered only objects of twisted personal gratification, there is the disruption of the unity and peace within the Kingdom as some take one side, some take the other side but most just become sadly suspicious of all workers.
Then I think of the vanity of it all. All those years of Gospel Meetings in an attempt to win some to the fellowship, and then this. It's as if the same ministry who is engaged in bring folks in has a faction who are driving them away. Why wasn't this noticed and corrected early on?
Because of not doing so from within until the problem has developed to the point that someone from the outside has been caused to take the initiative to start corrective actions, the shepherds of our fellowship are demonstrating their detachment even though they live amongst the sheep.
So while I am exceedingly saddened, I am thankful for fellows like Scott and others who are doing for us what we astonishingly cannot do for ourselves. I also don't blame others who in a state of shock are attempting to defend something they love but obviously don't quite understand.
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Post by landdownunder on Jul 26, 2010 8:42:35 GMT -5
We have to give credit to the action of the workers there, to take definitive action. Reading the letter, this appears to be being handled extremely well by those workers. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 26, 2010 8:48:34 GMT -5
We have to give credit to the action of the workers there, to take definitive action. Yes we do. Within 24 hrs a week of putting the workers in contact with the professing folks that contacted me the worker was removed from his position and sent away from the field he was in. Again, I would like to emphasize that WINGS has ONLY been involved in this to the extent that we were asked to be. The stated purpose of WINGS is: Working to INform Notify and Support
Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance to every individual on every aspect of Child Sexual Abuse (CSA), and to shed light on the prevalence of these abuses within the fellowship.
Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the group in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs when CSA is minimized and or ultimately ignored.It is very encouraging to see the changes within the group in regard to CSA issues in the last few years. There are now overseers that are providing training for the workers in their fields concerning CSA (and other forms of abuse). There are now overseers who when confronted with CSA immediately take action to protect those that are affected by CSA. There are 'regular' workers that are willing to discuss these issues openly with the friends when the issue is brought up. There are many elders that now have a better understanding of their roles and responsibilities when CSA comes to their attention. There are many 'regular professing folks' that have expressed their approval on how they feel that they can now rely on their overseers to take action when CSA issues are brought to their attention. As always, WINGS will continue to assist people with this to the best of our ability. Scott  edited... the 24 hours was in reference to a different action taken
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Jul 26, 2010 9:07:30 GMT -5
"We regret ..." is a little sly and disingenuous. I suggest the correct wording would really be, "We are delighted..." " Brother bert. .. this is only your paranoia and small mindedness showing itself to the rest of us."
A number of exes have been accused of pedophilia. " Brother berts weak attempt at misdirection. ..Hey..never mind the forest fire over there. . . . look over here at the fire burning over here..however big or small it may be. ." Through all of this where are the authorities??. .have they even been notified?? . .are they investigating ??. .have any charges been filed?? ? ?? ?? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 9:09:54 GMT -5
Nothing weird about bert at all in particular. Most F&Ws are raised on this: hate TV and love the workers. The seed bears fruit and it emerges like this all the time. Here we go again. Mostgeneralities or specifics? Sorry about that lin. I will change that to: "All F&Ws are raised on this: hate TV and love the workers." |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 26, 2010 9:20:56 GMT -5
Here we go again. Mostgeneralities or specifics? Mmmm.........most? ........ many? ......... generally speaking?..... ........ or perhaps we could be more specific and say 60% - 70% - 80%....... nah, rat would chew us up for that. How about "most that I grew up with" - yeah, now that might work. Extrapolate that to all those that I know of that have seen the same thing and we have perhaps "most", or at least "many". Anyway what's with all this concern about precision like most vs many? It could be the difference between fact and fiction. Nothing too serious. |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 26, 2010 9:23:15 GMT -5
Here we go again. Mostgeneralities or specifics? Sorry about that lin. I will change that to: "All F&Ws are raised on this: hate TV and love the workers." Don't do that because you will be lying. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 9:26:51 GMT -5
Sorry about that lin. I will change that to: "All F&Ws are raised on this: hate TV and love the workers." Don't do that because you will be lying. So you know someone who is taught in the meetings: "Love TV and hate the workers"? I stand to be corrected there lin. |
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Post by rational on Jul 26, 2010 10:10:50 GMT -5
Anyway what's with all this concern about precision like most vs many? Many really does not convey much information other than it is a relatively large number, at least in the eyes of the author. Most on the other hand does impart a little more information, i.e., more than half of total number. You could say "many workers are abusers" but I doubt you could sell "most workers are abusers". What is the problem with posting accurate information? |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 26, 2010 10:11:38 GMT -5
In addition to the wreck and ruin to the lives of those poor young souls who were considered only objects of twisted personal gratification, there is the disruption of the unity and peace within the Kingdom as some take one side, some take the other side but most just become sadly suspicious of all workers. Then I think of the vanity of it all. All those years of Gospel Meetings in an attempt to win some to the fellowship, and then this. It's as if the same ministry who is engaged in bring folks in has a faction who are driving them away. Why wasn't this noticed and corrected early on? It's not the fault of the ministry, it's a general failure of mankind. We know this is true because these kinds of failures cross race, gender, careers, age, beliefs, and more. The root cause cure - if any - lies with the family of man, not any specific branch of that family. Just thinking; interesting that pedophilia is classed as a form of illness, I believe no one who's captive to those kinds of illnesses like that reality about themselves. Someone who's an alcoholic isn't thrilled that they are, and are often powerless to stop even though a personal choice is involved with every drink. Victory in volition is hard to achieve with vices like this, which is probably why so many are classed as illnesses. So if there's personal gratification in the vice, the living with it brings no joy, only personal condemnation, a kicking oneself for being powerless to stop it, a kind of living hell. Those of us who don't have these vices probably don't understand what kind of hell it is to live with them. I know I don't, I know people who've overcome alcoholism, and have nothing but admiration for them. But I haven't walked in those shoes. In this way CSA perpetrators are victims too - in ways that those of us not subject to those seemingly unasked for, and sometimes uncontrollable desires, don't understand, cannot understand. Stoning them, and each other, even with words, isn't the solution. |
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Post by rational on Jul 26, 2010 10:12:29 GMT -5
Sorry about that lin. I will change that to: "All F&Ws are raised on this: hate TV and love the workers." That will be incorrect. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 10:19:51 GMT -5
Sorry about that lin. I will change that to: "All F&Ws are raised on this: hate TV and love the workers." That will be incorrect. Facts please. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 10:22:45 GMT -5
I'm actually a bit surprised that pedophilia is considered an illness too. It seems to me it would be more accurately classed as a personality disorder which is not considered to be an illness, but rather a hardwired disposition. Perhaps though, a "cure" will be found if it is an illness. In addition to the wreck and ruin to the lives of those poor young souls who were considered only objects of twisted personal gratification, there is the disruption of the unity and peace within the Kingdom as some take one side, some take the other side but most just become sadly suspicious of all workers. Then I think of the vanity of it all. All those years of Gospel Meetings in an attempt to win some to the fellowship, and then this. It's as if the same ministry who is engaged in bring folks in has a faction who are driving them away. Why wasn't this noticed and corrected early on? It's not the fault of the ministry, it's a general failure of mankind. We know this is true because these kinds of failures cross race, gender, careers, age, beliefs, and more. The root cause cure - if any - lies with the family of man, not any specific branch of that family. Just thinking; interesting that pedophilia is classed as a form of illness, I believe no one who's captive to those kinds of illnesses like that reality about themselves. Someone who's an alcoholic isn't thrilled that they are, and are often powerless to stop even though a personal choice is involved with every drink. Victory in volition is hard to achieve with vices like this, which is probably why so many are classed as illnesses. So if there's personal gratification in the vice, the living with it brings no joy, only personal condemnation, a kicking oneself for being powerless to stop it, a kind of living hell. Those of us who don't have these vices probably don't understand what kind of hell it is to live with them. I know I don't, I know people who've overcome alcoholism, and have nothing but admiration for them. But I haven't walked in those shoes. In this way CSA perpetrators are victims too - in ways that those of us not subject to those seemingly unasked for, and sometimes uncontrollable desires, don't understand, cannot understand. Stoning them, and each other, even with words, isn't the solution. |
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Post by rational on Jul 26, 2010 10:43:46 GMT -5
I was not raised to hate TV nor to treat the workers as anything but people. |
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Post by selah on Jul 26, 2010 10:45:30 GMT -5
"We regret ..." is a little sly and disingenuous. I suggest the correct wording would really be, "We are delighted..." because it provides justification for those who hate the workers message. A number of exes have been accused of pedophilia. One man took pleasure in spending up big on copies of The Secret Sect to hand around. To this day his own children don't speak to him. You will never hear of any of the friends publishing this on the internet. If you are genuine in helping then why not take that up with the parties involved? Bert...CSA is not an US vs. THEM (innies vs. outies) issue. It's about caring for children appropriately, and dealing with offenders appropriately....no matter whether they are US or THEM. We ALL agree that sexual offenders are found in EVERY walk of life; however, some situations create potential invitations for abuse. |
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Post by rational on Jul 26, 2010 10:51:07 GMT -5
I'm actually a bit surprised that pedophilia is considered an illness too. It seems to me it would be more accurately classed as a personality disorder which is not considered to be an illness, but rather a hardwired disposition. Perhaps though, a "cure" will be found if it is an illness. Illness or psychiatric disorder? Not so much hardwired. There is good evidence that child abuse and neglect greatly increase the probability that personality disorders will develop in adulthood. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 26, 2010 11:02:48 GMT -5
I can understand the responses to the shock of hearing about this; some in denial, some in confirmation, some accepting, some rejecting, but most just saddened, the category I am in presently. In addition to the wreck and ruin to the lives of those poor young souls who were considered only objects of twisted personal gratification, there is the disruption of the unity and peace within the Kingdom as some take one side, some take the other side but most just become sadly suspicious of all workers. Then I think of the vanity of it all. All those years of Gospel Meetings in an attempt to win some to the fellowship, and then this. It's as if the same ministry who is engaged in bring folks in has a faction who are driving them away. Why wasn't this noticed and corrected early on? Because of not doing so from within until the problem has developed to the point that someone from the outside has been caused to take the initiative to start corrective actions, the shepherds of our fellowship are demonstrating their detachment even though they live amongst the sheep. So while I am exceedingly saddened, I am thankful for fellows like Scott and others who are doing for us what we astonishingly cannot do for ourselves. I also don't blame others who in a state of shock are attempting to defend something they love but obviously don't quite understand. Thanks for that ronhall! I should point out again how WINGS came about. It was a combined effort by those both in and out of the truth fellowship who felt that there was a need for a resource that people in the truth fellowship could turn to. Although I am the one that is 'seen' because of my involvement, nothing that gets done through WINGS is done without the involvement of members of the truth fellowship being involved. IN regard to this: In addition to the wreck and ruin to the lives of those poor young souls who were considered only objects of twisted personal gratification, there is the disruption of the unity and peace within the Kingdom as some take one side, some take the other side but most just become sadly suspicious of all workers.The suspicion and disruption that I have noticed is when issues are known of and not dealt with immediately. Things that are covered up or denied simply turn into rumors and suppositions that get worse as time goes by. By the time action is taken and the issue is acknowledged, the workers involved have lost trust and credibility. If you look at what happened here in Minnesota, prompt action and openness on the part of the overseer had the issue identified, steps taken and the issue resolved within 6 months. Trust was increased for the workers that were involved in dealing with this immediately, and the church here emerged from this stronger than ever. Likely this will be the case in this latest issue in Australia where immediate action was taken after the workers were notified. I would guess that the hurt and pain this is going to cause will be less prolonged and once the workers clean up those issues they are aware of the church likewise will emerge stronger and the workers will have gained respect. Scott |
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Post by StAnne on Jul 26, 2010 11:56:50 GMT -5
As difficult as it is Bert, it is better to step up and say "it is a horrible occurrence and we all deeply regret that it has happened"-- offer a prayer for all involved. Making cartoons (however sadly funny they are) and excuses indicate weakness instead of regret. And, yes, I know how it feels to have to apologize for those who have fallen to the temptations of evil. I do NOT agree the cartoon was one bit funny! It showed a de ep disrespect for the WORKER who is trying his/her best to face an issue that has taken over the workership and has cost the fellowship MANY members and WORST of all, an issue that has damaged children for the whole of their lives. The cartoon is completely out of place and disrespectful! Something for everyone, I guess. I'm not seeing that particular aspect in the cartoon. The cartoon is completely out of place and disrespectful!Regardless, another thought provoking cartoon from Bert's vantage point. Most of his cartoons are darkly interesting. |
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Post by dudeler on Jul 26, 2010 12:33:18 GMT -5
In this case, I mainly was a go-between getting some professing folks in contact with the workers that could deal with this. All those workers seem to be taking these things seriously and have been dealing with this as well as possible. Scott Thanks for pointing that out Scott, it's nice to hear about workers being good leaders in this sad situation. |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 26, 2010 13:28:48 GMT -5
Bert you're a weird old buggar at times. You're hung up on smut like Two and a Half Men,and you excuse away and make light of sexual perversion committed by workers. Whats up mate? Nothing weird about bert at all in particular. Most F&Ws are raised on this: hate TV and love the workers. The seed bears fruit and it emerges like this all the time. Yea, yea...I planted a Bartlett pear once and it turned out to be an old hard Keiffer! But I made pear honey out of the fruit...used it anyway....tried to do like God does, you know.....  |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 26, 2010 13:31:30 GMT -5
I agree the abuse situation needs to be corrected. But to send letters to gather information that can't be verified for credibility will only harm the image of what Wings is upholding. Have the workers asked for Wings assistance in this matter? If so post their letter asking for assistance on Wings. That would give Wings the utmost credibility. Seems some of the victims are adults, Lin....I don't know the statue of limitations in Aussieville....but this kind of thing sometimes has to wait until these victims get their adult legs under them and the reason this has to come out for the past aged cases, is so that the victims of present times can see that it is okay to tell someone they trust and thus stop such things from happening more and more and more! |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 26, 2010 13:39:46 GMT -5
Mmmm.........most? ........ many? ......... generally speaking?..... ........ or perhaps we could be more specific and say 60% - 70% - 80%....... nah, rat would chew us up for that. How about "most that I grew up with" - yeah, now that might work. Extrapolate that to all those that I know of that have seen the same thing and we have perhaps "most", or at least "many". Anyway what's with all this concern about precision like most vs many? the difference between fact and fiction. Nothing too serious. "It could be"? Another generality, eh, Lin?  |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 26, 2010 13:49:38 GMT -5
"It's not the fault of the ministry, it's a general failure of mankind. We know this is true because these kinds of failures cross race, gender, careers, age, beliefs, and more. The root cause cure - if any - lies with the family of man, not any specific branch of that family. "
I disagree....the continuance of those who are and were known to be guilty of CSA and other sexual exploits were covered up by the powers that were and are for years! That IS the problem within the fellowship, not the fact there are offenders for as you say there are such in most any group of people.....also some of the overseers of present day have been refusing to face the fact that sexual exploits amongst some of their peers/staffs did and are happening. Knowingly turning their heads and business went on as usual....I think we all should pray for the overseers mtg. in Seneca, Ill today and pray that every overseer there will open his mind and admit that problems have existed in regard to these issues within the fellowship from inception of the fellowship....and no one wished to face their peers with charges and over charged the mantra of giving every person a second chance and also had disobeyed the laws of the land in doing so! This is a grave issue, it has cost the fellowship considerably in regards to the numbers of members and it still will for some time to come. Those who have had to face this issue themselves or through a loved one can NO longer trust the workers at all! If the workers want a strong religion they are going to have to do something, though that something is perhaps a bit late, but maybe the last ditch effort will be enough esp. IF God can bless it and God will bless it as long as their hearts and minds are fixed to righteousness.
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Post by rational on Jul 26, 2010 14:29:39 GMT -5
...also some of the overseers of present day have been refusing to face the fact that sexual exploits amongst some of their peers/staffs did and are happening. Knowingly turning their heads and business went on as usual. You have to be very careful when stating what other people did or did not know. There has also been a lot of speculation regarding which workers are sleeping with other workers, and who is forcing who to have sex, but I have a very strong feeling that many of these have speculation and gossip as their foundation. Did you ever play the game gossip? Throw a little speculation out there and you never know what it will grow into. |
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Post by JO on Jul 26, 2010 14:39:37 GMT -5
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Let's put ourselves in the place of a timid little abused child.
Could we bring ourselves to report worker sexual abuse to Bert if he was the elder?
Or Jesse?
Or Linford?
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Post by rational on Jul 26, 2010 15:36:50 GMT -5
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Let's put ourselves in the place of a timid little abused child. Could we bring ourselves to report worker sexual abuse to Bert if he was the elder? Or Jesse? Or Linford? Why would you be reporting a criminal case to anyone other than the people who are charged with dealing with criminals? Why would a timid child be doing this instead of the parents of the child? It looks like some education needs to be put in place. Soon. |
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Post by JO on Jul 26, 2010 16:13:41 GMT -5
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Let's put ourselves in the place of a timid little abused child. Could we bring ourselves to report worker sexual abuse to Bert if he was the elder? Or Jesse? Or Linford? Why would you be reporting a criminal case to anyone other than the people who are charged with dealing with criminals? Why would a timid child be doing this instead of the parents of the child? It looks like some education needs to be put in place. Soon. This hypothetical situation was never meant to be a recommended course of action. It was intended to help us all to consider our own approachability. Little children won't drive themselves to the nearest police station and report abuse. They need to have approachable people around them. If we raise children in a culture that forbids criticism of workers, friends and relatives we are fostering the ideal conditions for abuse to thrive. Little children know its an uphill battle getting adults to believe them. Frankly, there's been enough said on this thread already to deter a timid little abused child from reporting CSA. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 26, 2010 16:53:43 GMT -5
I disagree....the continuance of those who are and were known to be guilty of CSA and other sexual exploits were covered up by the powers that were and are for years! That IS the problem within the fellowship. I'm not denying that CSA hasn't been handled right, I'm saying the the problems withthe way it's been handled are not unique to the friends and workers fellowship, nor to any specific ministry, nor to religious groups. That fact clearly inticates it's a general mankind problem. Anyone that pretends otherwise has their head in the sand - or an agenda. Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. Let's put ourselves in the place of a timid little abused child. Could we bring ourselves to report worker sexual abuse to Bert if he was the elder? Or Jesse? Or Linford? I don't think Jesus was talking about CSA in those verses and commented about it a few weeks ago -> here. I have to wonder JO, do you have children? |
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Prayers for all who have requested prayer, or for whom prayer has been requested.
