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Jun 30, 2006 17:15:25 GMT -5
Post by selah on Jun 30, 2006 17:15:25 GMT -5
There's no particular reason for choosing the following scripture as an example of my point (differing views). I just wanted to show how the understanding changes, depending on what glasses we wear.
Romans 1:1-3 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God
How I once understood this passage through my (f&w eyes) : Paul (a Pharisee who despised those Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah [the 1st century f&w], until he had a powerful blinding spiritual encounter with the Lord and then a meeting with Ananias [the worker who was the contact necessary for Paul's salvation], following which he received his sight [spiritual understanding]), a servant of Christ Jesus, (one of the workers who serves Christ Jesus, who is the Son of God, by following His example) called to be an apostle (called into the "work" or the f&w ministry) and set apart (segregated in a class separate from the friends) for the gospel of God ( to tell others about Jesus' example of the only true way to: live life, worship God, fellowship with other f&w and conduct ministry to the world).
How I understand it now (wearing more orthodox glasses): Paul (a Pharisee who despised those Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah [the 1st century believers who departed from traditional Judaism], until he had a powerful blinding encounter with the Lord, and then a meeting with Ananias[one of Jesus' disciples or followers], following which his physical sight returned [like a symbol of the newfound spiritual understanding he received during his encounter with Jesus]), a servant of Christ Jesus (one of the new-life disciples who serves Christ Jesus, who is the Son of God, by allowing God's indwelling Spirit to transform him), called to be an apostle (called to be one sent forth with a message) and set apart (different from the usual working man because of his additional and specific purpose) for the gospel of God (to tell others of the good news of God's grace in the subtitutionary righteous life and sacrificial sinners' death of His Son, Jesus Christ.)
Or, I can just read it as words on a page, without any deeper understanding into its message - Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God
Blessings, Linda
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Jul 1, 2006 8:09:47 GMT -5
Post by prue on Jul 1, 2006 8:09:47 GMT -5
Sellah. We will answer this. We take most of both your arguments as being correct. However, we feel that your posting seeks to diminish the role of the Ministry.
Jesus went preaching at the age of 30, which is just another way we can connect him to the priesthood (where 30 was the minimum age they could serve in the Temple.)
Jesus established a ministry - not just a preaching ministry but he also mentioned a sacrificial ministry. This ministry was to preach in all the world, and then the end would come. This suggests our age also. The form of this ministry is both implicit and explicit in the NT.
Paul was "separated" to the gospel. That's a common word in the NT for departure from the world, and sometimes departure from those serving God - to the greater mission. Paul believed he was separated before he was born (Gal 1.15) and repeated the claims of Jeremiah 1.5 and Isaiah 49.1-5, meaning that the apostles of Jesus Christ had to serve during their entire lives.
Prue and Bert
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Jul 1, 2006 8:54:48 GMT -5
Post by slow to see on Jul 1, 2006 8:54:48 GMT -5
Hi, Thanks, Linda I also find myself reading and understanding the Bible with a very different "outlook" now, having removed the "2x2" glasses. Quite likely, one will continue to change one's understanding and "outlook" , as time goes on. Pruebert, I am curious to know , if you consider the workers as "apostles" and should they "serve their entire lives" , like you mentioned, because of "being seperated". Thanks for your posts. I can't say I often agree with them, BUT I appreciate your willingness to expose your beliefs and understandings, which I think are generally similar to many of the friends and workers I know. (with exceptions, of course) If I recall correctly, you are from Australia?, and the METHODS of communion at convention , etc. etc. are often quite different than the f&w practices in N. America, (the belief here is "you guys" having quite got the "full revelation" yet) but the general doctrine of "ministry without a home, meetings in a home" and one HAS to be a part of the f&w fellowship to have a chance to be saved is the same. I have a good friend who is "professing" and was a worker, with the feeling that because one did not serve their entire life as a worker, they are a failure and somehow do not "rate". I think this person feels the friends also view professing exworkers as not totally keeping true or whatever, and I wondered if part of the reason was that they view them as apostles and need to "serve their entire lives", like you mentioned? Thanks Alvin Kroeker
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Jul 1, 2006 9:04:53 GMT -5
Post by prue on Jul 1, 2006 9:04:53 GMT -5
Hi Alvin - I don't know any ex-workers. I am scratching my head to think of any in the NT. I suppose that at some stage all workers end their ministries, unless they die suddenly. This can end through age, illness, stress etc.. I guess it is just human nature to feel one has failed if one cannot continue in the work - but I think such people are being unfair to themselves.
We were not thinking about such cases when we wrote about the life-time ministry. That ministry was life-time in its anticipation.
Can't comment on American practices. Seems there were subtle differences between many churches in the NT.
Thanks for your letter.
Bert
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Jul 1, 2006 9:56:02 GMT -5
Post by selah on Jul 1, 2006 9:56:02 GMT -5
Hi Prue and Bert,
Thanks for your response. I like what Zorro has stated in other posts about "either/or....both/and". In the examples I gave, there are some both/and parts and some either/or parts.
I guess my post did sound as though I was negating the "ministry/clergy". Let me clarify....
I believe that ALL new-life disciples of Jesus Christ are in the ministry. I believe in the priesthood of ALL believers (that ALL believers are "set apart" for the gospel of God); however, I also believe each is called to specific tasks and endeavors for the Kingdom. Some are evangelists, teachers, pastors, prophets and apostles and some are encouragers, helpers etc.
Moving in these gifts for ministry may be framed in our workplaces, our homes, outreach missions, charities etc., while for some believers the call is for a more single-minded dedication to the ministry of the gospel of God.
I don't want to diminish the value of the latter in any way. Nevertheless, the value of the former should not be neglected either.
Blessings, Linda
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Jul 1, 2006 10:04:03 GMT -5
Post by selah on Jul 1, 2006 10:04:03 GMT -5
Hi Alvin, You are so absolutely right! Knowing that liberates us, don't you think? We are free to grow! If our belief system is laid in concrete, that's it...done. But, if it's planted in a garden....it can be nurtured, weeded, watered....it can grow and mature. And we're back to the sower, the seed and the soil. Blessings, Linda
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Jul 1, 2006 10:05:50 GMT -5
Post by prue on Jul 1, 2006 10:05:50 GMT -5
Hi Selah. I feel like doing my own thread on this business of separation - to define what is, you must also define what is not. Ideas, like racial groups, languages, cultures etc which open themselves to the outside races or culture, may gain something but in the process they must also lose something. I personally feel that to have a ministry where everyone is a minister, such as is happening in many churches these days, is to devalue what the word "minister" actually means. Bert
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Jul 1, 2006 10:26:42 GMT -5
Post by selah on Jul 1, 2006 10:26:42 GMT -5
I guess we have to discover what the word "minister" meant in the Bible, so we can align our understanding with it.
Just a quick look...
2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
"ministers" and "minister" in these scripture verses have been translated from the Greek diakonos meaning dispensers and servant.
The word "ministry" in several passages has been translated from the Greek diakonia meaning dispensation or service.
Aren't all believers to be involved in serving Christ by dispensing the good news (gospel)?
Blessings, Linda
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Jul 1, 2006 10:35:44 GMT -5
Post by selah on Jul 1, 2006 10:35:44 GMT -5
Another thing to consider is the great commission.
Matt:28:19-20a Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
This was Jesus' command to the eleven. They were to make disciples and teach them to do all that Jesus had taught them to do (which would include making disciples and teaching them etc.), the most important of which was to share the good news of redemption and the Kingdom of God. This is the responsibility of ALL disciples of Christ.
Blessings, Linda
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Jul 1, 2006 13:05:00 GMT -5
Post by slow to see on Jul 1, 2006 13:05:00 GMT -5
Hi Alvin - I don't know any ex-workers. I am scratching my head to think of any in the NT. I suppose that at some stage all workers end their ministries, unless they die suddenly. This can end through age, illness, stress etc.. I guess it is just human nature to feel one has failed if one cannot continue in the work - but I think such people are being unfair to themselves. We were not thinking about such cases when we wrote about the life-time ministry. That ministry was life-time in its anticipation. Can't comment on American practices. Seems there were subtle differences between many churches in the NT. Thanks for your letter. Bert Hi Bert, I don't understand your comment about not knowing any ex-workers. I mean, people who were a worker at one time, and left "the work" for whatever reason. I would think you do know some like that or? ? I don't view the twelve disciples as being like the workers, but if one did, I suppose Judas might be considered an "ex-worker". I agree with you, that one cannot find too many "ex-workers" in the Bible, quite unlike the MANY MANY ex-workers from the f&w church. BTW- many of these ex-workers have experienced and witnessed things "in the work" that they felt was WRONG and had enough conviction to NOT go along with it and some "sacrificed" their "place" for it. That is to be respected , MORE so than staying "in" and looking the other way. It is a nerve wracking business, for sure. Thanks for yours, Alvin
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Jul 1, 2006 22:59:01 GMT -5
Post by Bob on Jul 1, 2006 22:59:01 GMT -5
I have attended 2X2 meetings and have had friends and acquaintenances who are 2X2s . I have known a married couple all on my life (I am 56) who are now in their 90s. They were very close friends of my parents. I still visit them occasionally. I do not know anyone who lives their faith the way that 2X2s do. I also have never seen a happier group of people. Personally, I am a totally orthodox Christian as far as my beliefs go. I believe in the Trinity. I have epressed my belief that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost have always worked together in everything, all of the time to one of their workers. She said that she agreed with me. It still makes me uneasy that they seem to emphasize the separateness of the members rather than the unity. They have also told me that they do not really have "rules". I know that they seem to be legalistic. Also, I am a conservative Republican and as such, do not believe in pacifism. The 2X2s do not forbid military duty, but discourage their members from combat duty. The religious freedoms of 2X2s as well as everyone else has been at the expense of the lives of American combatants for 230 years. I do not understand pacifism. At the same time, I apreciate the clean lifestyles of 2X2s. I love them. There are times when I wish that I could be one of them. I have mixed feelings about the "Truth".
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Jul 1, 2006 23:10:57 GMT -5
Post by Bob on Jul 1, 2006 23:10:57 GMT -5
Another thing. I noticed other posts about ex-workers. I asked a worker one time if workers were free to marry. I was told that they do not discourage or condemn people who wish to leave "the work" in order to marry.
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Jul 1, 2006 23:14:16 GMT -5
Post by interested guest on Jul 1, 2006 23:14:16 GMT -5
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Jul 2, 2006 5:14:42 GMT -5
Post by Bert on Jul 2, 2006 5:14:42 GMT -5
To Bob. Hi from Bert. If you are looking for something pertaining to the spirit, then reading cult-busting web sites is not the way to go about it. Don't let people rob you.
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Jul 2, 2006 7:58:28 GMT -5
Post by selah unplugged on Jul 2, 2006 7:58:28 GMT -5
Hi Bert...I do hear what you're saying to Bob, but it's also true that the Spirit guides us into all truth. Sometimes that requires taking us through some research.
Blessings, Linda
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Jul 2, 2006 10:07:02 GMT -5
Post by Bob on Jul 2, 2006 10:07:02 GMT -5
Someting else that is interesting about the 2X2s is that they are not too much into scripture memorization, as in being able to quote scripture and verse. I am not saying that this is good or bad. They seem to believe that the Bible needs to be considered as a whole rather than being able to be real specific at picking out the individual parts. And they consider the four Gospels as being the most central part of the Bible, the basis of comparison for the other 62 books of the Bible. As a 2X2 friend of mine put it, "the Bible is two covers with a Lamb inside". An interesting way to look at it.
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Jul 2, 2006 20:51:50 GMT -5
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jul 2, 2006 20:51:50 GMT -5
Interesting points Bob. Appreciate your views and input.
One thing I really love about our group is the widespread connection. I remember taking a really long trip with my family and we stopped to visit (and spent the night) with some friends along the way... whom we had never met, but had mutual friends (friends of a friend of a relative.. something like that.) One of my buddies at school told me that they would NEVER consider doing that with someone from their religion.
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Jul 2, 2006 23:21:36 GMT -5
Post by Bert on Jul 2, 2006 23:21:36 GMT -5
Hi Bob. I found it interesting what you wrote about not memorizing scripture. I know some who are good it tHIS, but I had never stopped to think about your line of thought. I rarely quote scripture, not because of some rule, but a general feeling that scripture shouldn't be used as a weapon - after all, anyone can do it to bolster any point of view.
Over the years I have met some real crocodiles quoting scripture.
And when people came to Jesus and wanted to wrestle with his point of view, he simply told them to go and learn what he meant, meaning, read your scripture.
Want to kill someone without having a bad conscience? Just find a verse in the bible to help. Wars have been fought over verse and chapter.
We believe that the four gospels are the starting point for all scripture. I have met people who are interested in the bible struggling to understand, say, Leviticus!
Bert
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Jul 2, 2006 23:49:26 GMT -5
Post by Really on Jul 2, 2006 23:49:26 GMT -5
how can cult busters help bring someone to Christ?
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Jul 3, 2006 1:03:07 GMT -5
Post by a believer on Jul 3, 2006 1:03:07 GMT -5
I am surprised that Bob said the 2x2s take the whole scripture. It is well known that they just take parts of scripture out of context and quote a verse, and even parts of a verse. They also appear to not believe in the Old Testament frequently dismissing some thing because it is in the Old Testament.
Cult busters show people the real Christ and expose the counterfeit.
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Jesus as Cult Buster
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Jul 3, 2006 5:24:47 GMT -5
Post by Jesus as Cult Buster on Jul 3, 2006 5:24:47 GMT -5
a believer - can you give me some specific case of us taking scripture out of context? Yes, we ignore huge chunks of the OT because we no longer live under it. Many churches today still cling to OT teachings, such as the priesthood, church buildings, sacred days, physical symbols, tithes etc. But please, be specific, and give us some idea of what church you belong to so I can get an idea of where you come from. Don't be shy. And I find the idea of cult busters bringing us the gospel quite novel. Maybe Jesus was a cult buster and we didn't know it?
Friend
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Jul 3, 2006 9:58:41 GMT -5
Post by Yes Here on Jul 3, 2006 9:58:41 GMT -5
a believer - can you give me some specific case of us taking scripture out of context? Yes, we ignore huge chunks of the OT because we no longer live under it. Many churches today still cling to OT teachings, such as the priesthood, church buildings, sacred days, physical symbols, tithes etc. But please, be specific, and give us some idea of what church you belong to so I can get an idea of where you come from. Don't be shy. And I find the idea of cult busters bringing us the gospel quite novel. Maybe Jesus was a cult buster and we didn't know it? Friend Yes the verses which use the words "Filthy Lucre" in Timothy are used as a platform of the 2x2 to state that any church or minister which collects money is false. It is always taken out of context because the words "filthy lucre" pertain to ill gotten gain and not taking up a collection or paying a minister. Another area of verses taken out of context are those in Acts which Stephen spoke about the Tabernacle. "God does not dwell in temples made by mans hand." This is taken out of context in that it is used by the 2x2 to show all other churches are false because they have a church building. What Stephen was teaching about, was that the Jews had the Tabernacle and as such thought they would always have God with them as a result. The Jews thought the Tabernacle made them special, yet they still turned their back on God. The worshiped the Tabernacle system more then God. It is not any different then people who put more emphasis on household fellowship then God. The 2x2 have used this verse to support (form and fit over content) The Jews did the same at the Sanhedrin.
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Jul 3, 2006 13:00:52 GMT -5
Post by selah on Jul 3, 2006 13:00:52 GMT -5
Actually, He was a cult buster. He purposed to expose the Pharisees' vain dependence on ritual and tradition rather than dependence on the reason for them.
Depending on anything other than Jesus for salvation means something else is taking His place in the life of the individual. If a whole group comes together, setting their affections on the idol of their "belief system", and claiming IT is the only way, that is, in effect, cult-like thinking, don't you agree?
Blessings, Linda
Blessings, Linda
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Jul 3, 2006 20:10:52 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2006 20:10:52 GMT -5
As a kid...& later as a young adult attending 2x2 meetings....I was aware of various workers who left the work. I was never made to feel that these ex-workers were considered to be lesser members of the professing way; simply that some workers were cut-out for a life-time of ministering, while others...left due to nervous problems. The ex-workers that I knew of married, had children, got jobs, and for many decades-----up until the present day, remain faithful to the 2x2 church
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Jul 5, 2006 7:28:52 GMT -5
Post by Question on Jul 5, 2006 7:28:52 GMT -5
my take on this money business - we don't reject money but we are wary of where money can lead. same with church buildings. buildings led to full time staff and a priesthood to officiate - all this led to corporate religion and POWER. money in itself is not the issue. buildings in themselves are not an issue. it is the totality of these things which led to such enormous corruption we see today.
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Jul 5, 2006 8:40:36 GMT -5
Post by Yea I See on Jul 5, 2006 8:40:36 GMT -5
my take on this money business - we don't reject money but we are wary of where money can lead. same with church buildings. buildings led to full time staff and a priesthood to officiate - all this led to corporate religion and POWER. money in itself is not the issue. buildings in themselves are not an issue. it is the totality of these things which led to such enormous corruption we see today. Yea I see and understand. It is like the 2x2 who has much wealth and thus gives much to the workers and the fixing of the convention grounds: They get more visits and greater recognition from the Workers Or like the contractor in the 2x2 who gives the free time and materials to the building of convention grounds: He gets more visits and greater recognitions from the workersHumm money begets privilege in the 2x2 but they claim it does not happen. We who have been in the meetings for our whole lives know what happens. There is corporate religion and POWER as in any other church.
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