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Post by selah on Jun 14, 2006 13:09:03 GMT -5
Do the f&w generally believe in "original sin"?
One sister worker explained to me that the doctrine of "original sin" is one of the foundational differences between the f&w and mainstream Christianity. She said the f&w do not believe in "original sin".
I thought, even then, that perhaps she was speaking more for her own understanding, than for the whole fellowship. True?
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 14, 2006 13:13:43 GMT -5
What is "original sin"?
Looks like the first sin, taking of the forbidden tree, was two-fold: 1 - Believed a lie. 2 - Disobeyed God.
Would every lie make us disobey God? I think so. Do we accept lies from others, whether we know or don't know they are lies? I think so. Do we lie to our selves? I think so.
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Post by selah on Jun 14, 2006 13:19:33 GMT -5
Maybe she was meaning that people want to blame Adam and Eve for sin, rather than taking responsibility for their own disobedience to God.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Zorro on Jun 14, 2006 13:28:57 GMT -5
This is from Wikipedia:
According to Christian tradition, Original sin describes the condition of sinfulness (lack of holiness) into which human beings are hereditarily born. Used with the definite article ("the original sin"), it refers to the first sin committed by mankind, seen as the seed of future evil effects for the whole human race. Christians usually refer to this first sin as "the Fall".
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Post by Gene on Jun 14, 2006 13:30:28 GMT -5
I'm no expert on this (and would be interested in Rob and Clay's input on the doctrine) but I am aware of one worker who preached it in this sense:
1. We are all born in a state of sin (original sin), independent of any 'commission' of sin. 2. The exception is Christ who was divine - not (edit) of sinful and sin-prone human nature, and not born under the burden of 'original sin', thus qualifying him to pay the price for our sin. 3. Just as we 'committed' no act making us sinners, there is no act we can 'commit' that will save us - salvation is by grace.
So you see, he preached original sin, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace.
He was excommunicated for preaching false doctrine.
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Post by Depends on Jun 14, 2006 14:20:28 GMT -5
2. The exception is Christ who was divine - not (edit) of sinful and sin-prone human nature, and not born under the burden of 'original sin', thus qualifying him to pay the price for our sin. It depends on which dogma you are following. Original sin, according the Roman Catholic Church, is the privation of sanctifying grace in because Adam's sin. The Roman Catholic Church also has the doctrine of Immaculate Conception. The Incarnation of Christ requires, at least according to the RC, that Mary be without sin. This all means 4 were born without the stain of original sin - Adam, Eve (questionable births but what the hell), Mary and Jesus. Odd that the sin is Adam's and Eve gets off clean!
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Post by inmyknowing on Jun 14, 2006 14:25:57 GMT -5
Do the f&w generally believe in "original sin"? One sister worker explained to me that the doctrine of "original sin" is one of the foundational differences between the f&w and mainstream Christianity. She said the f&w do not believe in "original sin". I thought, even then, that perhaps she was speaking more for her own understanding, than for the whole fellowship. True? Blessings, Linda My understanding is they do not believe in OS. I also understand this was one of the issues in the alaska situation.
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Post by spiderman on Jun 14, 2006 16:41:20 GMT -5
I'm no expert on this (and would be interested in Rob and Clay's input on the doctrine) but I am aware of one worker who preached it in this sense: 1. We are all born in a state of sin (original sin), independent of any 'commission' of sin. 2. The exception is Christ who was divine - not (edit) of sinful and sin-prone human nature, and not born under the burden of 'original sin', thus qualifying him to pay the price for our sin. 3. Just as we 'committed' no act making us sinners, there is no act we can 'commit' that will save us - salvation is by grace. So you see, he preached original sin, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace. He was excommunicated for preaching false doctrine. Hi Gene, you foreigner you! That sounds like it might have been your old friend John Starkweather. It makes a lot of sense to me. Have you seen my daughter yet? Greet her from the old man if you see her. Give her a big hug! ;D
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Post by selah on Jun 14, 2006 17:44:49 GMT -5
Yes, and the sister worker told me that the f&w do not believe in "the Fall". She said that Adam and Eve were no different from us. They were made with a human or fleshly nature. This is true. We are all prone to sin, but before their disobedience to God' command, they hadn't sinned, right? But humans now are born into the hereditary sin of Adam and Eve.
Yes, Zorro, I agree with Wikipedia's definition.
I do believe in "the Fall". Romans 5:12 but really all of Romans 5.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 14, 2006 17:45:50 GMT -5
...the Roman Catholic Church...The Roman Catholic Church... I'm not sure, but I think there is no "Roman Catholic Church".
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towit
Senior Member
. . .with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right. . .
Posts: 295
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Post by towit on Jun 14, 2006 17:51:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure, but I think there is no "Roman Catholic Church". The Roman Catholic Church, or Catholic Church, is the largest Christian Church in the world. According to the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, the Church's worldwide recorded membership at the end of year 2004 was 1,098,366,000, a year in which the United Nations put the total world population at 6,388,500,000.[1] It is led by the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, currently His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. The Church defines itself as "the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter" — i.e. the Pope — "and the bishops in communion with him."[2] It teaches that it is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of all people. from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 14, 2006 17:55:30 GMT -5
Thanks for that, towit. What I mean is I know of no church that takes the name "Roman Catholic Church". I am well aware of the Catholic (Universal) Church.
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towit
Senior Member
. . .with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right. . .
Posts: 295
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Post by towit on Jun 14, 2006 18:09:37 GMT -5
Thanks for that, towit. What I mean is I know of no church that takes the name " Roman Catholic Church". I am well aware of the Catholic (Universal) Church. Hi Greg, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. There really is an entity known as the Roman Catholic Church. Here is a link to a communique from the Vatican website: www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20000719_baltimore_en.html Note, the title of the communique is Joint international commission for the theological dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. It seems to me that the Roman Catholic Church is usually listed as such as to be differiented with the Orthodox churches. Sincerely, towit
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Post by Clear on Jun 14, 2006 19:44:53 GMT -5
...the Roman Catholic Church...The Roman Catholic Church... I'm not sure, but I think there is no "Roman Catholic Church". It was used to avoid any confusion.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 14, 2006 20:49:09 GMT -5
Gene,
I would pretty much agree.
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 14, 2006 21:42:16 GMT -5
The Catholic position is based on the following facts:
1) The first man [Adam] received a command from God to test his obedience.
2) Through the temptation of the devil who took the form of a serpent he transgressed the Divine commandment:
3) As a result our First Parents were deprived of their original condition of innocence.
Adam & Eve's sin was that of disobedience, the root of which is pride. "By the disobedience of one man many were made sinners" (Rom 5:19).
It is important to remember that Original Sin is not the same as actual sin. Adam's sin of disodience resulted in loss of sanctifying grace and justice received from God. "Sin, which is the death of the soul, is inherited by all his posterity by descent, not by imitation. "(Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 108)
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Post by Jessi on Jun 15, 2006 6:45:01 GMT -5
Before Adam and Eve, there was sin (2 Pet 2:4, Jude 6).
WHICH IS TRUE?
GOD SAID: You will die if you eat the fruit (Gen 2:17) SATAN SAID: You shall not surely die (Gen 3:4).
They did die. Physically. Eventually. He had made them to fellowship with Him. I would say that they were not made with a sin nature. God is sinless and he made man in his own image.
But they committed the sin of pride (which satan also did, having beforehand sinned -- wanting to take God’s place in heaven), and so the sin of pride, by satan’s deception, was passed on to man.
I believe that any one of us would have done exactly what Adam and Eve did. The Bible says that sin came into the world through ONE MAN (Rom 5:12) and it only took ONE SIN for man to fall (Rom 5:16).
Is this just? If I claim it isn’t, have I disqualified myself from the mercy of the cross? That certainly wasn’t fair, either. No original sin, no plan of redemption . . . No Christ, and no salvation. No way to attain it.
Christ’s Forever,
Jessi
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 15, 2006 7:15:06 GMT -5
Hmmm, what in my post makes you think I thought you were being sarcastic? I clicked the link and got the the home page. I looked a bit further, but did not find what you posted. Anyway, I'll take your word for it that the vatican accepts and promotes the usage of Roman Catholic Church.
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 15, 2006 8:20:55 GMT -5
It seems to me that the Roman Catholic Church is usually listed as such as to be differiented with the Orthodox churches. It is my understanding that initially the adjective "Roman" was attached to the Catholic Church by Anglicans during the Protestant ascendancy in England, in an effort to distance themselves from the Vatican. fwiw, Clay
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towit
Senior Member
. . .with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right. . .
Posts: 295
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Post by towit on Jun 15, 2006 16:22:54 GMT -5
It seems to me that the Roman Catholic Church is usually listed as such as to be differiented with the Orthodox churches. It is my understanding that initially the adjective "Roman" was attached to the Catholic Church by Anglicans during the Protestant ascendancy in England, in an effort to distance themselves from the Vatican. fwiw, Clay Hi Clay, You would certainly know more about it than me- so you are probably right. However, I find it odd that the Vatican would describe themselves as the Roman Catholic Church in a communique that I found on their website. I had also read somewhere (or possibly imagined it) that it designates an allegiance to the Pope, whereas the Orthodox Catholic churches do not necessarily recognize the Pope as their Spiritual leader. Anyway, it would probably make an interesting study for me sometime when I run out of other things to worry about. Take care, towit
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 15, 2006 17:48:57 GMT -5
Well, I've looked again and cannot find the quoted document. Any help towit?
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Post by ClayRandall on Jun 16, 2006 10:00:45 GMT -5
You would certainly know more about it than me- so you are probably right. However, I find it odd that the Vatican would describe themselves as the Roman Catholic Church in a communique that I found on their website. I had also read somewhere (or possibly imagined it) that it designates an allegiance to the Pope, whereas the Orthodox Catholic churches do not necessarily recognize the Pope as their Spiritual leader. You're right, actually. Nowadays the term "Roman Catholic Church" is a designation accepted by Catholics of the Western Rite, as distinguished from the Eastern Orthodox Catholics.
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Post by Jesus blood on Jun 16, 2006 20:31:50 GMT -5
I have never been aware of the 2x2 folks not believing in Original Sin...for which God's son came and shed His blood.
I suppose if not for the sacrifice of Jesus, we would still be sacrificing bullocks & sheep upon alters...in order to earn God's blessing, & to escape God's wrath.
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