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Post by jhjmr on Jun 2, 2009 10:30:33 GMT -5
The twins turned in all the names, but how can you explain names being turned in that the twins have no way of knowing that person? I wonder if the court isn't thinking, get this over with the incompetency and any other person that was influences them, please just leave the scene. If you are stupid enough to go along with all of this garbage, then just go do it some place else. But, that doesn't mean that a libel suit can NOT be filed against any outside influence. Then the courts will be singing the blues, because they will have to deal with a lot of incompetent people, not just the twins. Any person that would try and put down names of people for some personal agenda is just not very competent. Obviously, they lack excitement in their lives. Or they live in a pretend world, they will save everyone from horrible people and what we need is to be saved from them! Bandtroll, have you lost any sleep over this case? If you have, it surely isn't because it was your family but because you got involved in something that should not have been. Reporting people of crimes can cause a lack of sleep if it is just a personal vindictive reason. You are not protecting any twin. Are you not protecting yourself? ? So, you are welcome to your opinion. I am only interested in facts. Facts are not imagination but are reality. That is why there is so much garbage involved because of a lack of facts, just hostile attitudes and trying to put out opinions that are damaging or untrue. The names were given to the police all with the same four people involved. Since everything was started by the twins it was put down as everything coming from the twins, which it did. The police didn't ask, who gave you names or did you know this person or have contact with that person. So, the court has not charged anyone but the twins. But they sure didn't have any trouble coming up with the facts that they were lying. That is why, if one twin gets to talk, since it is lies, in court, it will most interesting to hear what she says, because no matter how much you try to program a person it is not hard to trip them up. And when it comes to saving your own skin, you lose respect for those who doesn't care. That should be a big answer to a lot of questions and that would be the end of speculation and doubt sowing. Then, we'll see what happens and who tries to run and hide.
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Post by jhjmr on Jun 2, 2009 10:40:57 GMT -5
Did you say defense attorneys? The only thing the defense attorney did was to have one twin released from the forensic center to be placed with the bailsman. That did include no contact with those two ex workers again. Wonder why that would be? Wonder how much they listened to the courts since, no one is watching or cares to watch. The prosecuotr has never said the twins acted alone. One dr. tried to claim that the twin wasn't incompetent and had her released. Now, you keep repeating incompetent. So, I guess you don't believe everything the doctor said! So, since very little was said in court by anyone except the attorney hired by the ex worker and the dr. from Gaylord you are basing all your opinions on that? Hope they call you to testify, because you also could do some explaining. You are not reading facts, you are putting forth facts that has to be from the side that came up with all the names. How interesting. Keep writing. We are learning much!
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 2, 2009 11:41:57 GMT -5
I'll try to answer a few of the questions directed my way in one post. jhjmr, Scott, why would Wings be doing the research on charges or convictions? A libel case would surely be pursued for any unsubstantiated charges. If anyone is accused and not charged, you can't give that name to anyone without being libel. Telling someone else names and then them using them is also libel. When incidents that happened the year the twins were adopted and those names given to the police, something just isn't adding up. Where did those names come from? Who would know those names? That is why there are a lot of questions and not many answers that really answers the problem! By research I mean looking into publicly available information concerning something sent our way. For example someone reports that 'soandso' was arrested for child pornography. We can do an internet search on the name to find out if this was reported in the news. If so, then the report is a true report. We then keep track of the case to see if 'soandso' is actually charged and found guilty or if charges are dropped or whatever. Not sure what you mean about the libel. If someone gives us a bogus statement (which has happened a few times) once we determine it is untrue we dismiss it. As far as names from the year the twins were adopted, I have no idea. Since they were about 5 years old when adopted, they probably didn't remember much from that time, but I have no idea if someone else may have given them info. I am sure that a lot of family members would know details that could have been shared with them, but I doubt if the workers knew those details. Sharon, Scott, are you telling me that if a CSA victim tells one of the staff on WINGS about being molested, you will not tell the proper authorities....even if the victim is not of age or emotional maturity to fend for themself? Where do you come up that it is proper procedure NOT to report such 'allegations" by a CSA victim to the proper authorities...as a nurse, I'd have toI suppose that under certain circumstances WINGS might contact the authorities to inform them of an issue. We would of course inform them of how we got the info and that we have no idea of it's validity. I don't believe that it is likely that many who are not 'of age' will be contacting us. Again, we would advise them to contact someone who could help them, and in the case of someone not 'of age' it would be someone such as a school counselor who would be able to assist them. As I mentioned before, no matter what WINGS is given, it is hearsay and so we must treat it as such until it is somehow verified through other sources. The mess in Michigan was known about in January of 2008. If you look at the original posting here on the TMB, it was done on March 31st when I posted the story reported in the newspaper, followed by the story on TV. The newspaper article was actually posted by another member on a different thread, and I started a new one in the hopes of being able to get people to stick to the facts (as known through public means) Obviously, we have had people from both sides of the issue proclaiming the 'facts' as they know them to be. I am still waiting for the court system to finish, and then hopefully it will be finished. There is a lot of healing to be done by many people from both sides of the whole mess, and for some I doubt if everything will ever be resolved. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 2, 2009 12:11:45 GMT -5
There are at least two reports on wings that are fabricate and or are severely tampered with. Could you tell us which reports you are talking about here? The only reports I see on WINGS are in the convicted area. wingsfortruth.info/convicted.htmIf you are referring to the stories given by people that are posted on WINGS, that is their stories and not ours. How would you know if they were 'fabricated'? It would become the word of one person against another, so unless there was a story posted about you personally, you wouldn't know if it were true or not would you? Scott
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Post by jhjmr on Jun 2, 2009 12:55:38 GMT -5
It would be nice to assume that names given to the girls came from family member, but since family members weren't the ones the girls were living with when all the names were turned in and many being F @ W's names, I do believe that we could definitely give the blame to the workers that know everyone and everything. This problem only started after the twins were with the two workers. No one was into trying to know who would have been guilty of sexual abuse charges. And of course the one that we all know about the workers also knew about. They were all from the same state. When that worker was sent to another state, reason's were not given. And when the other suddenly went home, no reason was given. It was awhile later that details were found out about one and the second one the details were made known after papers turned into the police. So, that does that theory. Also, all papers were turned into the police by four people, not just the twins. What will be good to end this is when facts that are fiction will be admitted.
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Post by pianoman on Jun 2, 2009 12:55:45 GMT -5
JHJMR, we must remember that Bandtroll is only dealing with "facts". Of course those facts must promote Bandtroll's professional position, which is to stick by the story you have chosen, and be sure you are not side tracked or confused by reality. Remember, just because the list contained around 200 names, in Bandtroll's little deluded world, those names surly must be duplicated, because according to Bandtroll, The Courts have not stated that the names came from a specific source, so the official position is duplication. I am sure if you go to the store, and need bread, milk and eggs, you would write down those three items 20 times, thus making your list to contain 60 items. I am sure you can see the logic in that, I mean, you made the list and wrote those three items 60 times so you must pick up 20 cartons of eggs, 20 loaves of bread, and 20 gallons of milk. What other explanation would be likely? As I posted before, "facts" and information are obtained by the "fact fairy" and in Bandtroll's case, they just appear, are totally accurate, like the twins "facts", and must be given the weight that goes with this kind of thinking. Those "professionals", and other ones that were extremely adamant about all of the abuse, when it was first reported, must either admit that they were taken in, or find ways that side track observers from the "real deal". We must not confuse them with reality, because the "ouija board" that produced the names for the twins has been tested and approved by the professionals in this case, and has only revealed facts. Bandtroll has stated so many contradictory things here in an attempt to confuse those that are following the story, and have little facts or contacts that would help them to see what is taking place, that I am sure that bandtroll's feet are sore, from all of the switching back and forth. When I asked bandtroll when they were going to condemn those that were caught lying, and those that are blindly backing the liars, the answer was, "when they come on here and state speculation as fact". In other words, when someone questions where the names that the twins "provided" contain names that they don't know, it is pure speculation that they were assisted in those names, but bandtroll will not rightfully condemn the actions of proven liars, (the twin that pleaded guilty), only those that suggest that some hanky panky is going on. We must remember that when a person that is involved in a case makes certain "findings" and wants them to be true, no matter what, they will do anything to keep people from focusing on, or even considering the original reports as being incorrect or wrong. We should really have pity on bandtroll, as the mindset is typical of one in that field that has been taken in, as they are trained professionals that never miss a trick. It is nice that bandtroll shares such detailed inside information on this case, as JHJMR says, it is very informative, and since so many of us are "just guessing" bandtroll can set the record straight. I also think that bandtroll has such a good prospective on "incompetency" being somewhat of an expert on the subject. Makes you wonder how people like that make decisions that affect others so much, when they are questionable in thieri own thinking.
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Post by emy on Jun 2, 2009 20:53:43 GMT -5
Why is it that old saying comes to mind.... Methinks the 'lady' doth protest overmuch.
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Post by pianoman on Jun 2, 2009 22:08:28 GMT -5
emy, maybe it is because that is true?? Just more "speculation" on my part...............
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Post by dgaab on Jun 3, 2009 5:06:02 GMT -5
Another sad thought is if ..., that is, IF, one incident DID occur in the twins' initial accusations its assertions will be deemed untruthful because of the absurdity of their lies.
For the twins a direct reality of this case, even in the event that they are sexually molested or raped in the future, is that there had better be some physical evidence to support their accusations, because they are FOREVER branded as liars in the legal system.
Who knows what damaging effects this case may have on any future victims of such crimes, if they'd occur, within the faith. Even the hint of an accusation will bring to remembrance the false accusations of the MI case and justifiably draw to question reporting such a crime from a victim's position or the belief of the disclosure by those who could aid within the faith. It's difficult enough for a victim of such crimes to come forward. The tragic ripples of this case will inevitably touch the innocent and effect decisions for years to come for many having NO association with this case.
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Post by jhjmr on Jun 3, 2009 10:07:46 GMT -5
protesting over much??? Just stating facts not protesting. Protesting is in denial of facts. And arguing to have facts not made known. And the facts are OVER MUCH!!
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Post by bandtroll on Jun 3, 2009 13:01:15 GMT -5
If you are stupid enough to go along with all of this garbage, then just go do it some place else. Keep writing. We are learning much! ))) I wonder what happened in the 10 minutes between these two posts (((
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Post by cheechette on Jun 3, 2009 17:01:31 GMT -5
Everyone that is writing on this site knows that the twins named 200+ people for molestation. The court ruled they were both incompetent and sent to the Forensic Center for help. One twin finally admitted to lying and was found competent. Everyone should know if you are able to accuse this many people of such a crime you are definitely INCOMPETENT and you must have been before this all started and you are still incompetent. But... the Judge ruled one was competent. For the people who had to pay to get lawyers to clear their names then they should go after the competent person to repay their debt of money. If she is competent then she should be able to have a job and she should be paying for her crime. It may take 10 years to get your money, but at $1,000 a year you will get it sooner or later. Why would anyone have sympathy for someone that decided to lie and try to destroy lives of people and just let the girl go free. The laws state, if found guilty, you pay the price for your crime. Easy solution and maybe the girl will think twice before she decides to pull another scheme and destroy someone else's life. She knows right from wrong when found competent and just letting her go free from all the grief she created is a JOKE! Pay backs are a b_ _ _ h but it will be a good lesson for her to learn. The Judge left Civil cases open on her case so go take care of the problems that were created and maybe that will end the mess she enjoyed creating. Oh, maybe she will decide she will be incompetent again.
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Post by sharon on Jun 3, 2009 18:32:16 GMT -5
Cheechette....this monetary hardship on the competent twin will be felt by an already over hardshipped family! I'm not sure if the twin can get much of a job these days even if she hadn't had a record!
Is there to be no end of the hardship for this family? To what reason does anyone find it pleasant to even think against the family after all? They were rather innocent bystanders in all of this....it came down on them ninety t0 nothing....for those twins were not in the home when all this unpleasantness took place.......I think those who were "behind" the twins should be the ones to "assist" the twins to repay the monetary hardships for everybody, including the parents of the twins! It was a sticky situation and it should have been shouldered back to the parents before it became the nightmare it is...the twins should have been taken in for exams before and then returned to their parents! I realize they are 18, but if they were ruled legally incompetent that should have made them as minor children again, shouldn't it and by that time, it was found out that there was NO family problems of abuse, the other children were returned home were they not? I think how the family has been completely disregarded in their rights as a family, is horrendous...the time for the workers and friends to have backed down and out was when it was ruled that the parents were not abusive, and the twins were liars. IMO
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Jun 3, 2009 18:39:23 GMT -5
"How would you know if they were 'fabricated'? It would become the word of one person against another, so unless there was a story posted about you personally, you wouldn't know if it were true or not would you?" But then, again, the one's telling, the store, would be ditto would it not? So.........how does one really what is factual? like the Jean T case, or How about the faults allegations a daughter brought against her father, her dad recognized who she was on wings, tried to clarify things, his post was deleted because he mentioned names, but hers still stands.
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White Knight
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THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
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Post by White Knight on Jun 3, 2009 19:03:08 GMT -5
bandtroll: thank you for your hypothetical answers and admitting admonition to others,while burying other more prominent questions left unanswered. And if I may ask, as I seem to fail to understand your thought in the accusation of a mob. From the side I/others stand, we are the accused protecting our selves. We have been very forthcoming in the events leading up to, during and right onto this very hour. So now it seem to be an integrity issue. This is what Leeds us to believe you are from the inside on the other side. So maybe you can dispel the myth by answering a few simple questions. Were you at any of the hearings? Are you professing? How well do you know JF and have you ever advised him in any of this MI. situation? Have you ever advise anyone in this MI. situation? How well do you know the accusers? How well do know the family and or others involved in this case? These are the question you keep burying. Don't need to ask me any further question as I/we have already clarified them throughout all the threads. Thanks again for your participation throughout this situation. Sincerely:WK Say bandtroll can you say why you really refuse to answer these very simple question? maybe you should think about what it is doing for your credibility before you keep on going at the froth of the mouth IMO or maybe others are or would say ditto.
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Post by emy on Jun 3, 2009 19:08:29 GMT -5
Interesting perspective, Cheechette!
Sharon, are you sure the family is financially in hardship? Are you aware how much one Russian adoption costs, not to mention 6?
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Jun 3, 2009 19:52:50 GMT -5
Does that mean it's OK to run a persons family into the ground or laden them with undue burdens. like over $100,000.00 does this just come from a money tree? Someone had to work hard for that kind of doe. I think it's high time the workers started giving an account as to were and what they are spending the money/gifts we are giving them. Because a lot of them are living a lot better than we in the home life are. Who paid for their motel/hotel rooms in the midst of this fiasco (twins and the other two) along with food, clothing ect. what about JF,BD,BW's gas to spread faults rumors and allegations? How did they get spending money, because they most certainly were not working at the time. How did Kelly get the money two hire the twins attorney/s from what I hear, as well as a PI? I know she and the other are working. But they most certainly are not earning that much after all they must be paying rent for that trailer for doors down from the bondsman and the other twin so I hear.
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Post by sharon on Jun 3, 2009 19:55:55 GMT -5
Interesting perspective, Cheechette! Sharon, are you sure the family is financially in hardship? Are you aware how much one Russian adoption costs, not to mention 6? I'm sure they've suffered more then any one will ever know! It is a given for sure.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 3, 2009 20:34:40 GMT -5
How about the faults allegations a daughter brought against her father, her dad recognized who she was on wings, tried to clarify things, his post was deleted because he mentioned names, but hers still stands.His post was altered because he was accusing someone by name. The story on WINGS does not name any names, nor does it identify either the father or the daughter. Interestingly enough, I had no idea who the father was until he identified himself here on the TMB. In fact, I didn't know who the daughter was that wrote her story until he identified her by name. Which other account on WINGS do you think is false? Scott
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Jun 3, 2009 20:53:04 GMT -5
Lets just say we'll agree to disagree at this time.
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Post by bandtroll on Jun 3, 2009 21:16:10 GMT -5
The twins turned in all the names, but how can you explain names being turned in that the twins have no way of knowing that person? IF they were mentally ill, they would not need to know you very well. But they may have either known your name or "who you were" and had help filling in the rest. IF they were mentally ill, they may have remembered you because you .... Once looked at them the wrong way. Or did not look at them when they wanted you to. You may have ignored/payed attention to one of their friends. They may have heard someone they trusted/hated say something positive/negative about out. BUT for some reason your name stuck in their head. They may be thinking that, but hopefully they are a little more professional than to say that. All this "garbage" may be the truth if the facts ever come out. Agree, but without any prior court action it would be harder to win. There are a lot of people who may seem "crazy" in the general term but are not "clinically incompetent." (Do I look that bad? Sorry I didn't realize I had left my web cam on again ...) I'm not here to protect anyone, just here to point out what I see as too many "assumptions." As am I, which is why so many of my posts are pointing out that these are not proven facts because they are not 'first person' accounts or court documented. Yes, I have opinions based on prior experiences (which is what most on this board base their posts on) Damaging to whom? This implies that the investigator, prosecutor, judge and defense attorneys all failed to do one of the very basics of their job. I would think this could be very easily proved/dis-proved in court, there should be records of every thing that was discussed. This is exactly why I find it hard to believe that NO ONE has tripped them up so far (even accidentally)?? They were tripped up on the original accusations because they were lies, if they haven't been tripped up yet on where 'the list' came from, maybe it's not a lie. This could get even more interesting if one of the twins does "admit" they were given a list and then later get tripped up because that was a lie. So what is going to change? So far the twins have spent ?? six months in the psyc ward, and one has plead guilty to a felony (which bars them from voting, traveling to Canada, etc.) What else do they have to loose? After being pleading guilty to lying plus their psyc ward stay, it is going to take more than just their word to prove anything "beyond a reasonable doubt." One side or the other is going to say that they (the twins) are lying/still lying.
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Post by bandtroll on Jun 3, 2009 21:35:42 GMT -5
Did you say defense attorneys? The only thing the defense attorney did was to have one twin released from the forensic center to be placed with the bailsman. Yes I did say defense attorneys, IF these two did not act alone, why not make an issue of it? So the ex worker(s) have hired the lawyer and the lawyer gets a restraining order against the people that hired them. It doesn't add up to what you previously posted It would be wonderful if all facts came out in court, but since the one ex worker hired the lawyer to represent one twin, who do you think that lawyer is working for? Now how much fact finding does he want to hear? Or was the restraining order gotten for the twin that already pleaded guilty? But what have they DONE to indicated the twins didn't act alone? Released after how many months? (In most cases like this) After testing someone and finding them incompetent, the person would then get sent to a hospital until they are competent to stand trial. So yes, at some point the intent would have been either release them or commit them for life. I plan on it
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Jun 3, 2009 21:36:56 GMT -5
bandtroll: Are you absolutely sure this is a fact in this case? Or is this merely more assumption on your part? After all you are only after facts or want the facts of this case do you not! s......o Why not answer our questions as it will give everyone the honest facts about you will it not, or is that what scares you?
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Post by bandtroll on Jun 3, 2009 21:39:48 GMT -5
I do believe that we could definitely give the blame to the workers that know everyone and everything. This problem only started after the twins were with the two workers. Mental illness (if that's what this is) can start at any time, who, where, etc may have nothing to do with it.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 3, 2009 21:50:05 GMT -5
I dont usually read the Michigan threads, but happened to stop by and noticed this post addressed to me an Manfred. The only words from Lin's quote below that were mine were these seeking information: "Can you share when this was? And where? (I just want to make sure his name is on the WINGS list of convicted sexual abusers.) Thanks" The rest of the info was quoted from some other post/poster. I cannot look up someone in the public records without a name...and I was asking for the name. Saavy? FWIW, I am no longer associated with WINGS and have not been for some time. I ran across this in my files. interesting?CherieKropp Royal Member member is offline Ask: Who was Wm Irvine? Joined: Jul 2003 Gender: Female Posts: 3,186 Location: USA Re: Michigan Abuse Case « Reply #4 on Mar 31, 2008, 11:17am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/b]. He and his "wife" do not have the support of "the friends" but sadly neither does the victim. What can we do? Doesn't this stereotype get old? I understand that this behavior/sickness is not isolated to the F&W's but for some reason the type of power, authority, and ability to cover-up surpasses that of the Catholic Church. I am an onlooker who will take action. With Gratitude[/quote] Can you share when this was? And where? (I just want to make sure his name is on the WINGS list of convicted sexual abusers.)Thanks [/quote] CK if this individual was charged, arrested, jailed, prosecuted, convicted and incarcerated for his offense then why can't you identify him? It's public record! How can you offer PROOF without disclosing the name of the convicted criminal, otherwise it's speculation, innuendo or just hearsay? Or it's perceived as an embellishment to colorfully enhance your position. [/quote]
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White Knight
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Post by White Knight on Jun 3, 2009 21:50:55 GMT -5
I do believe that we could definitely give the blame to the workers that know everyone and everything. This problem only started after the twins were with the two workers. Mental illness (if that's what this is) can start at any time, who, where, etc may have nothing to do with it. this has nothing more to do with facts but merely taking the defense of the workers and thwarting all the blame onto the twins!!!!! Simply go back and read all your postings the trail is long and getting longer. check and mate mate.
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Post by bandtroll on Jun 3, 2009 21:57:49 GMT -5
JHJMR, we must remember that Bandtroll is only dealing with "facts". Sure trying too ... The more you assume the further you will get from the facts.You have flip flopped so much, it is hard to know where you are coming from So which is it? Am I sticking to my story or flip-flopping? Where have I ever said the names were duplicated? Wow, that was quick. I thought I was sticking to the story?? "which is to stick by the story you have chosen" Glad you pointed that out. That does seem to be what is happening in trying to pin 'the list' to someone other than the twins. What field is that? (Seeing I have never stated who I am nor what I do, nor do I ever plan to) Assumptions ... Agreed, in many cases people seem to be just guessing because they can't wait for the facts to come out. Experienced, yes. Like anyone else in life, we do what has to be done.
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Post by bandtroll on Jun 3, 2009 22:03:09 GMT -5
Another sad thought is if ..., that is, IF, one incident DID occur in the twins' initial accusations its assertions will be deemed untruthful because of the absurdity of their lies. I would agree. I have heard of another case where so many in a town were accused (and found to be lies) that in the end the prosecutor did not feel they were able to get a conviction on what they did feel were actual abuse. In this case I doubt we'll ever know.
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