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Post by ooT on May 20, 2008 15:16:33 GMT -5
Scott, have you been gagged in respect to the official circumstances of these proceedings? If there continue to be hearings, are the results public or not? If public, they could be reported here, right?
What's up?
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Post by guest 100 on May 20, 2008 15:38:08 GMT -5
It seemed some were saying that the girls were wrong in their accusations (120) but is it true that some have admitting their wrong? We heard recently that one of the brother workers who left the work turned himself in to the police.
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Post by Ummmm on May 20, 2008 16:04:30 GMT -5
It seemed some were saying that the girls were wrong in their accusations (120) but is it true that some have admitting their wrong? We heard recently that one of the brother workers who left the work turned himself in to the police. Wow, if true. No one expected ALL 120 to be convicted, because there would be inadequate evidence for all. And of course, there would be a handful that would unjustly tagged. I know I could not remember 120 of anything, especially names and incidents, which would back up a convictable offense. So a brother worker has turned himself in? Interesting if true, but does that wear away the pillars workers are put in? The Workers esteemness in the eyes of their followers. The reality is, this incident came under public scrutiny, due to its projected sphere of the accused. Another real question is how many of these one-on-one brother worker escapades, or repeated frolicking, exists, and is shuffled into a side-drawer, neat-and-tidy, from the awareness of the faith's followers and the public? What the field force needs is immediate dismissals of workers for their sexual frolicking with kids, sister workers, ... so that a clear definitive message is sent to ALL of their ministers. Partake, discredit the faith, and you're out of the Work. Ummmm
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Ya all Just Cant Do it
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Post by Ya all Just Cant Do it on May 20, 2008 16:51:49 GMT -5
Ya all cannot excom an Apostle selected by God---They are exempt
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Post by bump on May 20, 2008 17:34:56 GMT -5
pity bump
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Post by jag on May 20, 2008 23:15:57 GMT -5
He didn't turn himself in...he just went to the detective to find out what he was accused of!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2008 10:34:32 GMT -5
???And what was he accused of? Did he go to the authorities in Michigan or some place else? Was he ever a worker in Michigan? Do we have initials?
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Post by Guest on May 21, 2008 12:25:22 GMT -5
Ya all cannot excom an Apostle selected by God---They are exempt Workers are not Apostle's and can never be one. They are people like every human on earth and they live the life of a 2X2 and became workers on their own calling. That does not mean they are good or bad, it just shows they are human just like everyone else. To my understand, no one on earth has the right to be a judge - rather you are right or wrong spiritually. Only God can judge that. When he returns, those that are his saints will go with him and then they are able to judge. So I would think that if the workers have the right spirit they would be known as a saint to God and if a married man lives the right spirit he also would be known as a saint to God and that makes both people equal. God has given no worker the power to judge, control, or ex-com and the only way that happens is the members of the 2X2 let's it happen.
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Post by No No on May 21, 2008 12:43:46 GMT -5
Ya all cannot excom an Apostle selected by God---They are exempt Workers are not Apostle's and can never be one. They are people like every human on earth and they live the life of a 2X2 and became workers on their own calling. That does not mean they are good or bad, it just shows they are human just like everyone else. To my understand, no one on earth has the right to be a judge - rather you are right or wrong spiritually. Only God can judge that. When he returns, those that are his saints will go with him and then they are able to judge. So I would think that if the workers have the right spirit they would be known as a saint to God and if a married man lives the right spirit he also would be known as a saint to God and that makes both people equal. God has given no worker the power to judge, control, or ex-com and the only way that happens is the members of the 2X2 let's it happen. No No you don't say that. They are Apostles, they are. Nathan said so. You are just mis-guided. Why do you say things bad about workers. They are Apostles and chosen of God and that is why their ministry is the only right way.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
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Post by White Knight on May 21, 2008 21:33:40 GMT -5
They are neither servants nor apostles, but as it is written in John 15 YE are my friends. And to the question about the brother worker that went to find out what was happening. Did take tests and was in a rather lengthy interview. Were they tried to convince him that he was guilty. But he stayed the course and told the truth, he was not guilty. After about six hours of interrogation they let him go. As to the hearing I think it has come to pass, or maybe it's July 2nd. Not sure.
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Post by Oaaa on May 22, 2008 6:50:40 GMT -5
Workers are not Apostle's and can never be one. They are people like every human on earth and they live the life of a 2X2 and became workers on their own calling. That does not mean they are good or bad, it just shows they are human just like everyone else. To my understand, no one on earth has the right to be a judge - rather you are right or wrong spiritually. Only God can judge that. When he returns, those that are his saints will go with him and then they are able to judge. So I would think that if the workers have the right spirit they would be known as a saint to God and if a married man lives the right spirit he also would be known as a saint to God and that makes both people equal. God has given no worker the power to judge, control, or ex-com and the only way that happens is the members of the 2X2 let's it happen. No No you don't say that. They are Apostles, they are. Nathan said so. You are just mis-guided. Why do you say things bad about workers. They are Apostles and chosen of God and that is why their ministry is the only right way. Offer for the work and get unobstructed affairs. Why marry. Many individuals that offer in the work are misguided in their initial courageous goals and insights. Within the first couple of years those valiant goals are distorted and the reality sets it. A prime example is the number of workers leaving the ministry, 30 years ago that was very small. State's workers list .5 or .7 of the pairs of what they were 25 years ago. In the next twenty years the U.S. worker force will be .6 of today. And we continue to hear excuses that US is overworked for the Truth, overseas fields are the future. Ha, Ha,... there's a constant increase in population growth, but the faith's following in U.S. is clearly decreasing. Oaaa
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2008 7:36:08 GMT -5
The idea of "unobstructed affairs" in the work is ridiculous.
However, it is true that turnover rates have increased substantially. Someone did a detailed long term calculation a few years ago and found that the long term average turnover for a worker was about 10 years. I suspect that if you did the same calculation for the period of the last 10 years only, that number would be substantially reduced. For now, some areas where there is a large population of friends have made up the difference with an increase in young people offering and getting accepted. I doubt that this mini-trend will hold and the larger trend of a declining ministry will begin to prevail everywhere. The assumption here is that nothing significant in the church changes.
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Post by friend1 on May 22, 2008 8:30:30 GMT -5
This is off subject, since I know nothing factual about the Michigan Abuse Case, but a response to a couple of posts concerning whether the workers are apostles.
Wasn't Jesus himself a subject of mistaken identity?
e.g. "Who do they think I am?" and "Who do you think I am?"
Who do I think the workers are? Messengers sent from God. That is the definition of apostle. So I consider them as apostles.
Who do you think they are?
friend1
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Post by How on May 22, 2008 8:35:45 GMT -5
This is off subject, since I know nothing factual about the Michigan Abuse Case, but a response to a couple of posts concerning whether the workers are apostles. Wasn't Jesus himself a subject of mistaken identity? e.g. "Who do they think I am?" and "Who do you think I am?" Who do I think the workers are? Messengers sent from God. That is the definition of apostle. So I consider them as apostles. Who do you think they are? friend1
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Post by Scott Ross on May 22, 2008 9:44:51 GMT -5
Howdy friend1, In regards to your post: Who do I think the workers are? Messengers sent from God. That is the definition of apostle. So I consider them as apostles. Where did you get your definition of apostle? Here are a few: From the curch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints website:
Apostle One sent forth to serve as a special witness of Jesus Christ. There are 15 Apostles living on the earth today. They make up the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church.Merriam-Webster dictionary:
apostle One entry found.
apostle Main Entry: apos·tle Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpä-səl\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Old English; Anglo-French apostle & Old English apostol, both from Late Latin apostolus, from Greek apostolos, from apostellein to send away, from apo- + stellein to send Date: before 12th century 1: one sent on a mission: as a: one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul b: the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group 2 a: a person who initiates a great moral reform or who first advocates an important belief or system b: an ardent supporter : adherent 3: the highest ecclesiastical official in some church organizations 4: one of a Mormon administrative council of 12 menFree on line dictionary:
a·pos·tle (-psl) n. 1. a. Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel. b. A missionary of the early Christian Church. c. A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region. 2. One of the 12 members of the administrative council in the Mormon Church. 3. a. One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation. b. A passionate adherent; a strong supporter.Just curious as to your definition, since you state that they are sent by God, and the definitions I find don't seem to support that. I see where they were chosen by Jesus, so maybe you feel Jesus is God? Also, do you feel that ALL pastors, priests and other clergy are also apostles? If the workers are apostles and sent by God, can they lose that standing in your church? If so, how? Do you consider Nathan Barker to be an apostle? Do you consider Brad Lewis to be an apostle? Do you consider Barry Barkley to be an apostle? Do you consider Lyle Schober to be an apostle? Do you consider Ira Hobbs to be an apostle? Do you consider William Irvine to be an apostle? Do you consider Tim Severud to be an apostle? Do you consider Betty Draper to be an apostle? Do you consider Barbara Huggins to be an apostle? Just curious is all. I find it fascinating when people refer to 'the workers' as being apostles, and I wonder if you feel one can lose their apostleship. Judas was and is considered an apostle of Jesus, so that would make William Irvine an apostle by your way of thinking, and any and every worker since then, whether or not they were in the work 6 months or 60 years. Thanks for the thought provoking idea, and I look forward to your answer! Scott Edit- I posted this to a new thread rather than to hijack this one....
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Post by Humm Apostles on May 22, 2008 9:52:43 GMT -5
How come there is not a very high number noted here in this scripture?
Rv:21:14: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
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Post by Guest on May 22, 2008 23:06:56 GMT -5
The idea of "unobstructed affairs" in the work is ridiculous. However, it is true that turnover rates have increased substantially. Someone did a detailed long term calculation a few years ago and found that the long term average turnover for a worker was about 10 years. I suspect that if you did the same calculation for the period of the last 10 years only, that number would be substantially reduced. For now, some areas where there is a large population of friends have made up the difference with an increase in young people offering and getting accepted. I doubt that this mini-trend will hold and the larger trend of a declining ministry will begin to prevail everywhere. The assumption here is that nothing significant in the church changes. Quote states: "Increase in young people offering and getting accepted" to become workers. Wonder who is accepting the young people? The overseer of the religion? It seems if they were apostle's they would be appointed by God and not have to worry about being accepted. Another flaw in the 2X2 reasons!!
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Post by Or on May 22, 2008 23:11:01 GMT -5
How come there is not a very high number noted here in this scripture? Rv:21:14: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Because they were the "first group" to have their names on the foundation...
Did God foget Paul, Matthias, and Barnabas, apostles? ;D Apollo, Timothy, Silas, etc... I don't think so! ... theirs names and many other apostles throughout the ages are added and build on the same New Testament foundation.Perhaps they were the only ones Jesus selected.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2008 23:21:30 GMT -5
The idea of "unobstructed affairs" in the work is ridiculous. However, it is true that turnover rates have increased substantially. Someone did a detailed long term calculation a few years ago and found that the long term average turnover for a worker was about 10 years. I suspect that if you did the same calculation for the period of the last 10 years only, that number would be substantially reduced. For now, some areas where there is a large population of friends have made up the difference with an increase in young people offering and getting accepted. I doubt that this mini-trend will hold and the larger trend of a declining ministry will begin to prevail everywhere. The assumption here is that nothing significant in the church changes. Quote states: "Increase in young people offering and getting accepted" to become workers. Wonder who is accepting the young people? The overseer of the religion? It seems if they were apostle's they would be appointed by God and not have to worry about being accepted. Another flaw in the 2X2 reasons!! There you have it. Called by God, accepted by man.
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Post by ex1 on May 22, 2008 23:22:53 GMT -5
Who do you think they are? False Prophets. Wolves In Sheep's Clothing. Child Predators by Another Name. The Physical Embodiment of the Anti-Christ.
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Post by Reality Check on May 22, 2008 23:42:29 GMT -5
It is conflicting statements like these which are giving those who claim to know whats going on near zero credibility. Face It: This thread is a wreck and nearly impossible to read for a reason. There is a deliberate effort here by certain self-appointed defenders-of-the-cult to obfuscate the truth (not Truth) of this matter in order to frustrate, confuse, and drive away any who are interested in hearing the facts of this case. These brainwashed and mind-wiped numb-skulls are simply following their programmed behavior. As fools, they whole-heartedly believe that what they are doing is the Lord's work. This is what happens when the reality of law, logic, reason, reality, and basic morality collide head-long into an abusive, secretive, seclusive, and scripturally vacant religious cult.
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Post by ex1 on May 22, 2008 23:49:46 GMT -5
Thanks, for your opinion ex... but many of us 2x2s disagree with your opinion... Are you saying all of them are false prophets? Child Predators?
Do you know all of the 2x2s workers personally around the world? if you don't then how do you know they too are false prophets? or child Predators? No. No. No. Do you? I never said they were. I never said they were.
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Post by I M O on May 23, 2008 6:44:22 GMT -5
It is conflicting statements like these which are giving those who claim to know whats going on near zero credibility. These brainwashed and mind-wiped numb-skulls are simply following their programmed behavior. As fools, they whole-heartedly believe that what they are doing is the Lord's work. This is what happens when the reality of law, logic, reason, reality, and basic morality collide head-long into an abusive, secretive, seclusive, and scripturally vacant religious cult. Seems there are plenty of these on both sides of this topic.
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Post by lilwolfmisty on May 23, 2008 21:35:48 GMT -5
Ok now I want to know how come the sister workers and the overseer are not being charged with "tampering with a witness" I mean I got to spend 6 months in jail for telling my 8 year old that she did not have to talk to a doctor that upset her and asked her "filthy questins" her words! Oh yes I also got "tampering with a witness" another charge for implying that my children were lying by asking them to tell the truth and not embellish it! So how come all these people are getting away with clouding the case and no charges are being filed??? Blessings, Misty
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Post by good ideaWSY7S5LL on May 24, 2008 9:15:50 GMT -5
:Now there is one to think about. Why aren't the workers and overseer charged with obstructing justice. When they are suppose to be the innocent people standing by, why are they the ones that trying to call the shots. In more than two court hearings, one sister worker wrote notes and had them past up to the prosecutor. Funny isn't it. Whom are they trying to influence. This is a fact as I was an eye witness to this. I was wondering how the workers would like it if there were notes being written and passed around during their sermons. Disrespectful I'm sure. But it sure is a known fact that they are trying to obstruct justice. They are going to answer to that I'm sure before this is over.
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Post by Watching on May 24, 2008 12:01:16 GMT -5
:Now there is one to think about. Why aren't the workers and overseer charged with obstructing justice. When they are suppose to be the innocent people standing by, why are they the ones that trying to call the shots. In more than two court hearings, one sister worker wrote notes and had them past up to the prosecutor. Funny isn't it. Whom are they trying to influence. This is a fact as I was an eye witness to this. I was wondering how the workers would like it if there were notes being written and passed around during their sermons. Disrespectful I'm sure. But it sure is a known fact that they are trying to obstruct justice. They are going to answer to that I'm sure before this is over. You are so very correct!!! It's nice to know that some of us can see thru this situation instead of pretending that the workers are so righteous and know everything. That is there way of trying to control again!!!
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Post by Lute1812 on May 24, 2008 13:22:00 GMT -5
:Now there is one to think about. Why aren't the workers and overseer charged with obstructing justice. When they are suppose to be the innocent people standing by, why are they the ones that trying to call the shots. In more than two court hearings, one sister worker wrote notes and had them past up to the prosecutor. Funny isn't it. Whom are they trying to influence. This is a fact as I was an eye witness to this. I was wondering how the workers would like it if there were notes being written and passed around during their sermons. Disrespectful I'm sure. But it sure is a known fact that they are trying to obstruct justice. They are going to answer to that I'm sure before this is over. You are so very correct!!! It's nice to know that some of us can see thru this situation instead of pretending that the workers are so righteous and know everything. That is there way of trying to control again!!! This is sheer speculation on my part. The children’s cases will run their course, which is the ongoing process now developing, including any further relevant investigations that might unknowingly rear up out of nowhere in equal nature. After all the sworn testimony of everyone, who are in the slightest bit caught up in this case is on record, in court documentation, then I suspect the District Attorney will deem if there has been any misinterpretations, lying, gross misconduct, … on the part of any of the Workers, or others, and then he/she will go after those who might be construed as guilty of any crimes, which would also include the obstruction of justice. Especially, with the dual evidence, in his/her grasp, of the filing of the initial police reports and any sworn testimony that is on the books. If there are any gross inconsistencies, between the two, there could be some significant problems for some. The current thrust of effort evolves around the children, especially youthful minors, which is emerging as a colossal predicament at this time, consistent with any form of abuse relevant to juveniles. Just like the Texas dilemma, the welfare and protection of the children comes first, and are the immediate concerns of society, because they are judged to be the victims. One point I would be concerned about, if provable, if anything occurred, is the potential of rape charges. In Michigan that’s anything under the age of eighteen, with or without the consent of the sub-eighteen year old. And anyone convicted of that crime, with a sub-eighteen year old, is the inclusion on the Michigan State Police's Sexual Offender List. Lute1812
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Post by maybe on May 24, 2008 13:38:54 GMT -5
is the potential of rape charges. In Michigan that’s anything under the age of eighteen, with or without the consent of the sub-eighteen year old. And anyone convicted of that crime, with a sub-eighteen year old, is the inclusion on the Michigan State Police's Sexual Offender List. Lute1812 Does this mean that the 50% of children (15-17) claiming to be sexually active are listed on the offenders list?
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