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Post by Church on Jun 27, 2006 7:20:55 GMT -5
I attend a Christian home based fellowship that has their services in private homes or utilizes rented public or private facilities for larger services. The fellowship has an annual meeting each year in several locations throughout the county on private property. The annual meetings last for 4 days and are usually held in a rural area on a private farm. The annal meetings would be similar to the old fashion camp meetings that churches have held, in the past, in rural area.
The fellowship has not taken a common name and is not an official tax exempt non profit church. They have used various names to register with governmental agencies, in the past, but have not settled on a common name. The group was started in the latter part of the 19th century in Ireland. Some of the early ministers were Faith Mission Ministers or "Workers" as the Faith Mission refers to their ministers. They borrowed many of the terms that are still in use today from the Faith Mission. They refer to the preachers or ministers as "workers'. They refer to the lay people as "friends", which is a Quaker term. The fellowship is very well organized, but does not have a formal organizational chart. The areas are divided into "fields" (parish for the Catholics, stake for the Reorganized Church of The Latter Day Saints, etc.) Fields are grouped together in larger areas such as states in the United States and would have an overseer. The overseer would be in charge of several workers. The workers are provided with food, housing, transportation, medical dental, hearing aids, glasses, retirement, etc. but are not paid a salary. The ministry is supported with the offerings of the adherents of the fellowship. The budget is not as demanding as they do not support buildings, rectories, gymnasiums, swimming pools, fellowship halls, etc. The organized charitable giving by the group is also limited. They do support an extensive missions program that is geared more toward spreading the Gospel that providing material support.
The founders attempted to model the fellowship after the New Testament Fellowship, which has little of the institutional character of the typical 21 century church as we know it today. The early Church was a fellowship of believers in Jesus who were led by the Holy Spirit and were know as the "body of Christ." One did not join the Church; one was born again into it. If the Christian church is to retain its unique voice, distinct from other faiths, it will have to return to its New Testament roots. It must once again become a loving fellowship of the Holy Spirit, leading those for whom Christ died "into all truth." The first century church provided such a model. Twenty centuries later, it must do again. The Church that I attend and fellowship with, is attempting to model the ideas mentioned above.
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Post by GuestS on Jun 27, 2006 8:49:40 GMT -5
Well, sadly you are following the WRONG path...it does NOT lead "into all truth"....it leads into all manner of lies and deception. This is NOT the "church." This is NOT the "body" of Christ. This is NOT the "bride" of Christ They are NOT led by the HOLY Spirit. Their "founder" is William Irvine. They do NOT support "missions." They do NOT spread the "gospel."
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Post by Will on Jun 27, 2006 9:42:03 GMT -5
To Church: Your description of the F&W system is reasonably accurate from what I understand. Too bad it isn't openly and honestly acknowledged as such by the F&W. It is, as you say, a form of worship and fellowship that a group of evangelists led by William Irvine founded around 1900 for the reasons you list. Now, to say that God raised them up to restore his only true church and that all other Christian forms of worship are bogus is a leap of faith or a manifestation of ego or worse. In fact, the F&W don't leave it as you describe, they take it to further steps to discount the faith and Spirit-indwelling in others; they claim faith exclusively for themselves. Perhaps not all the individuals in the F&W do, but it is the company-line. Mind you, 30 years ago, your description above was unknown by the majority of F&W as it was hidden from them intentionally.
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Post by Futher on Jun 27, 2006 11:11:04 GMT -5
Further indoctrination and lack of sight.
The fellowship has not taken a common name and is not an official tax exempt non profit church.
Yet if this is true who gets the benefit of the enhancement to the convention grounds? The owners or the congregation members? Who puts this benefit on their taxes? The Owners or the congregation members? Seems there is selective wealth accumulation to a few from the many.
The fellowship is very well organized, but does not have a formal organizational chart.
Yes, very true. The well organized fellowship does not want to be accountable to the body congregation which is umbilical. There should be a formal organizational chart for the body congregation.
The workers are provided with food, housing, transportation, medical dental, hearing aids, glasses, retirement, etc. but are not paid a salary.
Some of the members do not even get those benefits. How is it that the ones who claim to be servants are above those they serve? Renumeration as salary may be in the form of Goods or services. This is a bogus lie only to keep from being accountable to the Body congregation.
The budget is not as demanding as they do not support buildings, rectories, gymnasiums, swimming pools, fellowship halls, etc. The organized charitable giving by the group is also limited. They do support an extensive missions program that is geared more toward spreading the Gospel that providing material support.
The budget is just as demanding as any others. How do they account for the $100000 or greater put into convention grounds for new buildings? Who gets the benefit for this investment? Without a formal administration these benefits enhance the wealth of a few and not the body congregation as a whole. What would you call a pole barn for convention which cost over $70000 dollars to build? I say it is a "building" which only function is for the fellowship worship meetings. Hey is that not a church building?
question: What if I want to show my charitable contributions to the church on my taxes? How do I prove it to the tax man? Can I get receipts for my many years of donations? How do I prove how much I gave?
If the owners of the convention grounds claim the added value to their property based on the enhancements as a result of the congregation giving money then should not the congregation also be able to get tax deductions for this? Humm one gets more wealth based on increase in property value and others just lose money because there is no accountability of what is given.
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Post by curious guest on Jun 27, 2006 11:29:05 GMT -5
The workers are provided with food, housing, transportation, medical dental, hearing aids, glasses, retirement, etc. but are not paid a salary.
retired US workers are not supported by the f & w's they are on Title 19
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Post by My Understaning on Jun 27, 2006 11:31:42 GMT -5
It is my understanding that William Irvine never intended to have a lay congregation. He began this movement for the purpose of recruiting itinerant preachers (Go Preachers, Tramp Preachers, etc. as they were referred to) to spread the gospel. The idea of a non-worker, non-itinerant congregation was introduced by others (Cooney? Carroll?) later. Irvine was subsequently booted out after making some bizarre statments and claims. He had become a threat to the now-established hierarchy and an embarrassment as an obvious nut case. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by Missions on Jun 27, 2006 12:05:04 GMT -5
They do support an extensive missions program that is geared more toward spreading the Gospel that providing material support.
Not to slight the efforts of any workers working in foreign fields, but this statement is.....I'm looking for a word other than laughable......can't think of one so we'll go with that - laughable. The way the F&Ws discount the incredible missionary works of the collective Christian body is pathetic and shameful. "Extensive missions program". ....... can't......stop.....laughing.
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Post by to bogus on Jun 27, 2006 13:09:33 GMT -5
To "Will" - I am the one that posted the description of the fellowship and I have read and re-read the post and cannot find where it says "all other forms of Christian worship are bogus"? Where in the post does it make the above statement? This is also information that I researched out over 40 hears ago and well before the web! I do not feel that "all other forms of Christian worship are bogus". I have taught Sunday School in the Methodist Church and my wife has taught Bible School in the Baptist Church and do not feel the above mentioned churches are bogus. We will take all the help that we can get from all of our brothers and sisters in Christ and many choose to worship different than we do. We make financial contributions to worthwhile missions of other churches.
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Post by Will on Jun 27, 2006 13:14:19 GMT -5
No. Not you. I meant the "company line" of the 2x2s. I actually appreciated your post. Sorry for the confusion. I think you hit the nail on the head with your description of what the 2x2s COULD be and IMO SHOULD be. Sadly, as a rule 2x2s do discount other faiths. And, I think 2x2s in general would probably NOT want to agree with your post because it makes them sound too man-made.
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Post by ilylo on Jun 27, 2006 13:19:39 GMT -5
"Extensive missions program". ....... can't......stop.....laughing. Of course it's extensive. It takes a lot of paperwork to establish and dissolve the 2x2 corporation in order to support the mission (whatever that is).
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Post by org chart on Jun 27, 2006 16:48:25 GMT -5
Further indoctrination and lack of sight. The fellowship is very well organized, but does not have a formal organizational chart. Yes, very true. The well organized fellowship does not want to be accountable to the body congregation which is umbilical. There should be a formal organizational chart for the body congregation.When reading the above statement I started wondering what kind of fighting there would be at the top to say who was at the top of the org chart. I would imagine the top name would be Jesus or God but from there down I would think it would be very interesting to see the politics, back biting and back stabbing that would go on. Just like the real world because they are mere mortals. It might even rival the figing that goes on here between those that will remain nameless but they know who they are....
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Post by description on Jul 5, 2006 15:52:10 GMT -5
The description of the church is the results of reserach that started in the last 1950's and went into the 1960's. The information was gained with the help of the late Fred Kinglake (worker from England) and Tom Long (former worker) who now lives in Penn.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 5, 2006 21:46:03 GMT -5
RE: question: What if I want to show my charitable contributions to the church on my taxes? How do I prove it to the tax man? Can I get receipts for my many years of donations? How do I prove how much I gave?
The 2x2 church is not a tax exempt organization--they have not applied for or sought that status legally. Therefore, you cannot deduct your charitable contributions to them on your annual IRS tax return. Someone more knowledgeable about taxes please correct me if I mispoke...
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Post by freedomrings on Jul 5, 2006 21:51:16 GMT -5
CherieKropp, That is so true. HOw can we show what we gave as a donation? I suppose that we are to just be thankful we gave to God and that is our blessing. Maybe I am not being tactful but it is what it seems like to me.
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Post by selah on Jul 5, 2006 22:20:57 GMT -5
When I was one of the friends, I felt that to claim charitable deductions was the same as letting your left hand know what your right hand was doing.
After leaving the meetings, I realized that making that tax deduction claim is actually better stewardship of God's provisions for us, and has nothing to do with pride or proclaiming how much I've given.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Deduction on Jul 5, 2006 23:46:02 GMT -5
We use the deduction - Cash donations by cash or check. They do not have the legal status, but we take the deduction just the same. If you are an IRS agent, we will discuss the deduction.
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