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Post by roberta on Jun 27, 2006 2:32:15 GMT -5
There seems to be a raging debate these days here about Jesus being God or not.
There seem to be three sides. 1. Those who claim Jesus is God, and state that the F&W do not accept this 2. Those F&W who deny that they deny Jesus divinity. 3. The unrepresented mysterious ones who perhaps do deny Jesus divinity.
But is it important? Does anyone claim that without this belief there is no salvation?
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Post by guesswho on Jun 27, 2006 2:46:07 GMT -5
Jesus the man
The reason some people need Jesus to be just a man is in the scripture (paraphrase)
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
The key words are suffering and obedience.
We know there is no greater suffering than the imagined and the self-inflicted suffering of those who feel their key separation doctrines (that which differs one exclusivist from another, e.g. ministry, sabbath, woman's hair) are obedience to God.
"I have never understood why it is important to believe that Jesus is God or not."
The response from most f&w is along that same line...a resounding "what difference does it make?". My response is that it makes ALL the difference. The most basic things I try to help people understand is that -
1. We should feel the issue of KNOWING God to be of critical importance. We must know who He is.
2. We must understand that a denial of Christ's deity is a heresy. Why? The easiest way to understand that is turn the question around and ask "why is it important to believe he was just a man?". The answer is simple....the workers espouse a doctrine of salvation by works. They don't recognize that, and deny it vehemently, but the heart of that belief is that Jesus was just a man, and his perfect life is a result of his total willingness, implying that our salvation is the result of our willingness to live the same life of sacrifice. Of course, he was completely willing, but his perfect life was a result of his divine nature. Of course, we want want to live lives controlled by the Spirit to glorify God, but that's not to be confused with salvation, which we know is a gift of grace.
3. The crux of much confusion is a misunderstanding of the Trinity. Many knee-jerk responses to the issue of Jesus being God go along the lines of...well, who did Jesus pray to? Who raised him up? Why does it say he obeyed the Father? This seems to be the nearly universal response of f&w, including myself in the past. Indeed, the notion that heaven was empty when Jesus was on earth is heresy. The Trinity is clearly that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are individual, seperate "people" with one essence that is "God". The easiest place to check all this out....the concordance of a Bible.
4. One last very simple and clear proof that Jesus was God.....he was omniscient and omnipresent.....how could that be possible were he not God? Oh....another is Heb 1.8-10. Here the Father calls the Son God and commands the angels to worhip him....this was after he was begotten on earth.
Granted, it seems very confusing compared to what we've been taught, but once you "get it", you see it everywhere and the Bible will open up like never before.
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Post by roberta on Jun 27, 2006 3:20:15 GMT -5
guess who (I can't guess)
Thanks. I should have stated my position in this. As a current F&W I KNOW Jesus=God.
But you didn't approach the question: "Does anyone claim that without this belief there is no salvation? "
Do you claim this?
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Post by heard on Jun 27, 2006 4:40:34 GMT -5
heard in our gospel meeting to night that God is a God of order, and Jesus is a God of order.
claim [1] is wrong. claim [2] is wrong. and as far as I know that none of whom I know doubt the divinity of the Christ.
but hear is what God says that salvation is belief in His Son this is my well beloved Son, hear ye Him.
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Post by spiderman on Jun 27, 2006 8:25:09 GMT -5
heard in our gospel meeting to night that God is a God of order, and Jesus is a God of order. claim [1] is wrong. claim [2] is wrong. and as far as I know that none of whom I know doubt the divinity of the Christ. but hear is what God says that salvation is belief in His Son this is my well beloved Son, hear ye Him. "Heard it!"
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Post by sjg on Jun 27, 2006 8:39:15 GMT -5
To "heard"
Ask the worker in your field (in private) to answer this question "Is Jesus God?" and see IF what you think you "heard" in gospel meeting is indeed what they are saying.
"Roberta", I challenge you to do the same thing.
Yes, it DOES matter in regards to salvation. Unless He IS God, He cannot be the spotless Lamb which takes away our sins.
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Post by spiderman on Jun 27, 2006 8:43:01 GMT -5
Jesus the man The reason some people need Jesus to be just a man is in the scripture (paraphrase) 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; The key words are suffering and obedience. We know there is no greater suffering than the imagined and the self-inflicted suffering of those who feel their key separation doctrines (that which differs one exclusivist from another, e.g. ministry, sabbath, woman's hair) are obedience to God.
"I have never understood why it is important to believe that Jesus is God or not." The response from most f&w is along that same line...a resounding "what difference does it make?". My response is that it makes ALL the difference. The most basic things I try to help people understand is that - 1. We should feel the issue of KNOWING God to be of critical importance. We must know who He is. 2. We must understand that a denial of Christ's deity is a heresy. Why? The easiest way to understand that is turn the question around and ask "why is it important to believe he was just a man?". The answer is simple....the workers espouse a doctrine of salvation by works. They don't recognize that, and deny it vehemently, but the heart of that belief is that Jesus was just a man, and his perfect life is a result of his total willingness, implying that our salvation is the result of our willingness to live the same life of sacrifice. Of course, he was completely willing, but his perfect life was a result of his divine nature. Of course, we want want to live lives controlled by the Spirit to glorify God, but that's not to be confused with salvation, which we know is a gift of grace. 3. The crux of much confusion is a misunderstanding of the Trinity. Many knee-jerk responses to the issue of Jesus being God go along the lines of...well, who did Jesus pray to? Who raised him up? Why does it say he obeyed the Father? This seems to be the nearly universal response of f&w, including myself in the past. Indeed, the notion that heaven was empty when Jesus was on earth is heresy. The Trinity is clearly that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are individual, seperate "people" with one essence that is "God". The easiest place to check all this out....the concordance of a Bible. 4. One last very simple and clear proof that Jesus was God.....he was omniscient and omnipresent.....how could that be possible were he not God? Oh....another is Heb 1.8-10. Here the Father calls the Son God and commands the angels to worhip him....this was after he was begotten on earth. Granted, it seems very confusing compared to what we've been taught, but once you "get it", you see it everywhere and the Bible will open up like never before. If I was a betting man,( and from time to time I have been), I'd bet this is none other than Antonio Banderas the notorious masked man ;D
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Post by Zorro on Jun 27, 2006 9:07:38 GMT -5
Spidey, You are close. I am NOT "guesswho", but the bottom half of their post is an old post of mine.
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Post by catholic belief on Jun 27, 2006 9:15:51 GMT -5
In flesh, Jesus was just a man, in spirit, He was devine, 'God in the flesh'.
Catholics think Mary is mother of God, which is wrong
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Post by Zorro on Jun 27, 2006 9:22:39 GMT -5
To heard, I assure you that there are many in the F&W that deny the deity of Christ. Over the course of 30 years I spoke with overseers and many workers and friends privately, asking them directly about Christ's deity, and found only one young worker that believed it. The interesting thing is that he also thought everyone believed it. As i have said in the past, I believe the denial of Christ's deity is heresy and it amazes me that such controversy and confusion exists about it in a fellowship claiming to be the only source of salvation on earth.
Roberta, Personally, I don't believe a person needs to understand Jesus' deity per se, to be saved. But as a believer grows they will certainly come to understand it. Why? Because as we grow, we are simply coming to know God, and Jesus is part of the Godhead, God the Son. It's just not that hard to grasp. The problem is sorting through an environment of denial and confusion, such as exists in the F&Ws fellowship.
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Post by good on Jun 27, 2006 9:22:53 GMT -5
Mary is the mother of Jesus. but not God,
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 27, 2006 9:33:35 GMT -5
There seems to be a raging debate these days here about Jesus being God or not. There seem to be three sides. 1. Those who claim Jesus is God, and state that the F&W do not accept this 2. Those F&W who deny that they deny Jesus divinity. 3. The unrepresented mysterious ones who perhaps do deny Jesus divinity. But is it important? Does anyone claim that without this belief there is no salvation? Roberta, I believe that the majority of F&W do not fully understand what the doctrine of the trinity says, and so they dismiss it as "false". It was only after I stepped back and really tried to understand it using many scriptures to back it up, that it began to sink in. These are my thoughts: 1. We need to understand what people mean when they say "Jesus is God". I used to think they meant he was the same spiritual being as God the Father which of course is nonsense. In fact this is not what the correct doctrine of the trinity says. 2. Because of the misunderstanding of #1- people who oppose the doctrine of the trinity then say "Jesus cannot be God". This is where I believe people get into trouble because it is very serious to deny who Jesus is. I do not believe it is a requirement of salvation to believe #1, as long as you believe Jesus is the Son of God and that by no other can one can be saved. I do believe that it is heresy to say "Jesus IS NOT GOD:, if by this you mean that he was less than the Father in essence, power, nature or ability. I don't believe you need some deep understanding of the divinity of Christ, as long as you don't deny his divinity. One is not the same as the other. Love, HFA
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Post by studylearning on Jun 27, 2006 11:35:09 GMT -5
Workers Response to : Incarnate God Jesus
MY Response, Well then Who is Emmanuel?
Silence filled the room
The fatal crack in the foundation is the teaching and denial: It is that Jesus is NOT Deity.
Etymology The English word deity is from the Latin deus, meaning 'god'.
Similar is the Sanskrit deva, a god or celestial being. Related are words for the sky: Latin dies, day, divum, the open sky, Sanskrit div, diu, sky, day, shine.
Also related are divine or divinity from Latin divinus from divus. See also Dyeus. The English word god is from the Anglo-Saxon, and similar words are found in many Germanic languages (e.g. the German Gott, God).
They do not teach that!
Well then what do they Teach?
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Post by ilylo on Jun 27, 2006 11:47:20 GMT -5
They do not teach that! Well then what do they Teach? That's the beauty of it. They don't know what they teach.
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Post by and on Jun 27, 2006 15:50:59 GMT -5
They do not teach that! Well then what do they Teach? That's the beauty of it. They don't know what they teach. and you don't know what you speak
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Post by HEARD on Jun 27, 2006 15:52:06 GMT -5
heard in our gospel meeting to night that God is a God of order, and Jesus is a God of order. claim [1] is wrong. claim [2] is wrong. and as far as I know that none of whom I know doubt the divinity of the Christ. but hear is what God says that salvation is belief in His Son this is my well beloved Son, hear ye Him. "Heard it!" yea, heard it
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Post by ilylo on Jun 27, 2006 15:53:27 GMT -5
That's the beauty of it. They don't know what they teach. and you don't know what you speak Then here's your opportunity. Write down what 2x2s teach and share it with us.
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Post by Heard on Jun 27, 2006 15:55:50 GMT -5
To "heard" Ask the worker in your field (in private) to answer this question "Is Jesus God?" and see IF what you think you "heard" in gospel meeting is indeed what they are saying. "Roberta", I challenge you to do the same thing. Yes, it DOES matter in regards to salvation. Unless He IS God, He cannot be the spotless Lamb which takes away our sins. I know what they think without having to ask them Say, who did God say Jesus was?
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Post by Heard on Jun 27, 2006 15:58:22 GMT -5
To heard, I assure you that there are many in the F&W that deny the deity of Christ. Over the course of 30 years I spoke with overseers and many workers and friends privately, asking them directly about Christ's deity, and found only one young worker that believed it. The interesting thing is that he also thought everyone believed it. As i have said in the past, I believe the denial of Christ's deity is heresy and it amazes me that such controversy and confusion exists about it in a fellowship claiming to be the only source of salvation on earth. Roberta, Personally, I don't believe a person needs to understand Jesus' deity per se, to be saved. But as a believer grows they will certainly come to understand it. Why? Because as we grow, we are simply coming to know God, and Jesus is part of the Godhead, God the Son. It's just not that hard to grasp. The problem is sorting through an environment of denial and confusion, such as exists in the F&Ws fellowship. And I can assure you that in all my years that has not been denied before me
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Post by What Hat on Jun 27, 2006 16:01:24 GMT -5
and you don't know what you speak Then here's your opportunity. Write down what 2x2s teach and share it with us. what for? you say you know it all
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Did you really want to know
Guest
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Post by Did you really want to know on Jun 27, 2006 16:17:25 GMT -5
Say, who did God say Jesus was?
He said he was God.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
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Post by NO on Jun 27, 2006 16:20:50 GMT -5
Say, who did God say Jesus was?He said he was God. Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. He said this is My Son, hear ye Him. He didn't say this to the Son, He said it to man.
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Post by oh on Jun 27, 2006 16:36:57 GMT -5
Say, who did God say Jesus was?He said he was God. Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Is this something like the husband who said, 'I am the boss. (because my wife said I was') ok who's in charge? the one that gives the orders usually is the one that really is in charge. After thinking about the semantics of this verse, how about ''Thy throne O Son of God, is for ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom'' I like the flow of the former, as it does give a larger place to the Son, than just being the Son, is this verse fortelling a higher place to be given His Son in His heavenly kingdom? Will , Jesus continue to refer to God as His Father in Heaven? Will God still refer to Jesus as His Son?? ANY thoughts?//
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Post by To NO on Jun 27, 2006 16:37:45 GMT -5
Is there a particular reason you chose to ignore my reference to Heb 1?
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Post by Misquote on Jun 27, 2006 16:43:02 GMT -5
After thinking about the semantics of this verse, how about ''Thy throne O Son of God, is for ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom''
This is a misquote. It does NOT say "O Son of God" - it says "to the son, he said your throne O God".
NIV: 8But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
KJV: 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
ESV: 8But of the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
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Post by I on Jun 27, 2006 16:43:10 GMT -5
Is there a particular reason you chose to ignore my reference to Heb 1? I didn't ignore it, why did you say I did?
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Post by name game on Jun 27, 2006 16:55:57 GMT -5
After thinking about the semantics of this verse, how about ''Thy throne O Son of God, is for ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom''This is a misquote. It does NOT say "O Son of God" - it says "to the son, he said your throne O God". _______________________________________________ KJV: 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. This verse seems to be suggesting tha t the Son will be elevated, by God, in His heavenly kingdom, paradise. Do you think that God will continue to call Jesus , His Son in paradise??/ Will Jesus continue to call God, HIS Father??
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Post by To name game on Jun 27, 2006 17:04:28 GMT -5
Do you think that God will continue to call Jesus , His Son in paradise??/
Will Jesus continue to call God, HIS Father??
Certainly.
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