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Post by todd on Feb 20, 2009 8:55:57 GMT -5
I'm not much for history, Cherie, but I do feel giving credit where credit is due is the most appropriate thing. Yes, I agree with John Long being the co-starter as I read several things within your site to indicate to me that he had a lot of input about it at the beginning, but simply because he removed himself just few yrs. later he perhaps didn't feel up to being the founder or co-founder? Just like you said, you and Scott do not agree on the beginning of WINGS! John Long said he was there from the beginning, he did not say he begun it. For example, I could say, I was in a certain church from the beginning, but that does not mean that I started it. If he started it he would not have said from the beginning, he would have said from when he begun it. From the beginning does not mean he begun or co begun it. Yes it does. If he was one of the beginning ministers, everyone who was there at the beginning, begun it. Those two words are derivitaves of the same word.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 8:57:12 GMT -5
Todd, nobody it attempting to quench John Long's involvement. He himself felt he was denied a part in the foundation of Irvine's faith mission-church. In the main JL was ministering whilst selling books. He didn't please Willie because he was not strictly Matt.10. Willie was King-pin and what he said, went. He was the main dude. Der Fuhrer.
Remember, Kaiser Bill said himself - "Nien Wilhelm - Nien Testimony !" Irvine initiated the concept of "total ministry." Total war on the unbelievers, especially the Christian churches.
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Post by todd on Feb 20, 2009 9:01:12 GMT -5
Do we want our kids and our friends to base their faith on our church.... ....or do we want our kids and our friends to base their faith on God the father and his son Jesus Christ? The latter. And that is what the preachers are there to preach. Have a look at the wheat story to see what would happen when effort is concentrated on preaching about past workers. We should be looking to Jesus. We do not belong to a reigion or have membership in any man made way. We belong to God.
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Post by ilylo on Feb 20, 2009 9:06:00 GMT -5
The latter. And that is what the preachers are there to preach. You would think. Too bad the workers collectively do not.
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Post by todd on Feb 20, 2009 9:14:09 GMT -5
Todd, nobody it attempting to quench John Long's involvement. He himself felt he was denied a part in the foundation of Irvine's faith mission-church. In the main JL was ministering whilst selling books. He didn't please Willie because he was not strictly Matt.10. Willie was King-pin and what he said, went. He was the main dude. Der Fuhrer. Remember, Kaiser Bill said himself - "Nien Wilhelm - Nien Testimony !" Irvine initiated the concept of "total ministry." Total war on the unbelievers, especially the Christian churches. Yes, Willie thought he was somebody, and of course he wanted this to be all about him. He obviously felt threatened by JL because JL did just as much as WI was. WI did a very horrible thing to JL in front of all those people, but how else was WI to denounce JL as being in error than to get all the people behind him. Too often WI has been given credit for things only because he was the one making all the noise and did unethical things to make people think that it was all of him. He wanted people to think that if it wasn't for him that they wouldn't be there... i.e. No WI, No testimony. That was just him big noting himself yet again, and knowing the type of person he was, are you going to believe that? I hope not. Just look what he did to JL.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 20, 2009 10:35:07 GMT -5
Todd wrote: Just because you cant think of "how else" or another better way for WmI to excommuicate John Long and get WmI's "This is God's Only True Way on Earth" message out there to his lay people doesn't mean one doesn't exist. PROVIDED JL's excommunication had really been a necessary action, which it was not (It was a HUGE mistake) it could have been done in private. Several innies on here freaked out over the thought of a worker even telling about the start-up of your church from the platform--and here you are implying it was perfectly OK for WmI to excommuicate his co-worker from the conv. platform--in front of all these people? How would you feel if the workers in OZ excommunicated someone from the platform at your next convention? Do you have Double Standards???
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Post by Sharon on Feb 20, 2009 10:41:26 GMT -5
Todd, nobody it attempting to quench John Long's involvement. He himself felt he was denied a part in the foundation of Irvine's faith mission-church. In the main JL was ministering whilst selling books. He didn't please Willie because he was not strictly Matt.10. Willie was King-pin and what he said, went. He was the main dude. Der Fuhrer. Remember, Kaiser Bill said himself - "Nien Wilhelm - Nien Testimony !" Irvine initiated the concept of "total ministry." Total war on the unbelievers, especially the Christian churches. How sad to think that ONE man's hatred of clergy has perpetuated a century of hatred of false prophets ....at least I can say I've been screaming at the top of my lungs that Jesus told His own apostles to forbid him not....in regards to the man doing deeds in Jesus' names! That pointed out to me that Jesus knows that whoever lives believing in Jesus is as much His as the one who holds himself up above everyone else as a Chrisitan! How exalted can one get?
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Post by Sharon on Feb 20, 2009 10:43:46 GMT -5
Sharon.....Ilylo is hard to remember and to type.... so others had a nick name for him and it's easy to type... OILY. Nathan, I think I have a real mental block with his name because of that stupid mask! If I'd never seen that stupid mask for hundreds of times, I might be able to get the "spelling" right within my feeble brain! I have done my best to "visualize" that person with the mask and unspellable name as a human worthy of love and mercy! So pardon me if I fail to spell the masked name correctly!
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Post by Sharon on Feb 20, 2009 10:54:54 GMT -5
Todd wrote: Just because you cant think of "how else" or another better way for WmI to excommuicate John Long and get WmI's "This is God's Only True Way on Earth" message out there to his lay people doesn't mean one doesn't exist. PROVIDED JL's excommunication had really been a necessary action, which it was not (It was a HUGE mistake) it could have been done in private. Several innies on here freaked out over the thought of a worker even telling about the start-up of your church from the platform--and here you are implying it was perfectly OK for WmI to excommuicate his co-worker from the conv. platform--in front of all these people? Double standards??? Double STandards, Cherie? You bet your boots....I, myself, abhor people being lamblasted with negative things in a public venue....it is nowhere being loving and merciful at all! I empathize with JL and other's pain at the hands of WI's treatment...he was in no way an empathic man, he was a narcisstic person....didn't have the capability to empathize or maybe even to care about his fellow man...but that doesn't mean his co-workers did not. Did Jesus publicly embarass the adulterous woman? No, He didn't really want to discuss it with her accusers but they pushed the matter and who ended up being embarassed, convicted in their own hearts, leaving the one they wanted Jesus to convict and going home...... If that's having double standards and not wishing a dubious history to be preached from a platform before hundreds of people from all different countries and states....then so be it....it would not be very Christ like to leave those hundreds of people suffering the shock that even you yourself seem to have suffered now would it. I know how that feels and I don't like it.....I don't appreciate being left to deal with the shock alone, the hurt alone and I won't ask that of my brothers and sisters in Christ. I know what has happened to some...they've turned against God altogether....and I understand why, not that I agree with it...but I do understand their feelings. I also understand those who are bitter and have hatred, I don't agree with it, but I understand it. That's my "fit" about preaching the history from the platform....I think it needs to be done at least mtg. by mtg. and the workers do their best to help those who are completely decimated by the facts. Now don't you? I strongly suspect that a lot of the workers themselves are still reeling with the facts....the issue of so many leaving the work and then the truth's fellowship is a large example of the decimation of self that this thing is doing to people. Now Cherie, if you have NO compassion or empathy within you then go ahead and keep pouring these things on people....God will take care of it in HIS TIME....the rest of us must be patient, or it will DO NO GOOD! Thank you for any consideration you give this issue!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 11:03:00 GMT -5
The Shaz wrote:
I strongly suspect that a lot of the workers themselves are still reeling with the facts....the issue of so many leaving the work and then the truth's fellowship is a large example of the decimation of self that this thing is doing to people.
Sharon, I'm not aware of "many" leaving the work and then the fellowship. Are you speculating as to what "might" happen ?
Personally, if such is the case, or is likely to result, it would be a good thing in this respect, that it would be clear evidence of how people had been duped into investing their faith in a system.
The message is clear. Have faith in God through Jesus alone, not through the fusion of a system. Any who untangle themselves from such will feel true liberation in the spirit.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 20, 2009 11:13:44 GMT -5
How about a pamphlet explaining the origins given to all F&W? Would you prefer that? Actually I dont care what the workers do--booklet, platform, private talks or nothing. I intend to keep true to my vow to make the 2x2 history common knowledge to everyone ever associasted with that church. If the history I present on TTT shows the workers up for not coming clean--so be it. it's their choice. They could undo some of the damage, but they choose not to. There would be no shock factor to come into play if the workers hadn't created the issue in the first place. Don't blame me. I'm simply challenging them to "make the way straight" again. Seems to me the workers have perpetuated the lie about their startup and origins from the platform so many times that the platform would be the perfect venue to untell the lie. Turnabout is fair play--until what? until it reveals something ugly? There should be enough workers (and nurses?) at every convention to deal with the shock factor--if they would come out between meetings and let the people talk to them. FWIW, I haven't met an ex yet who wasn't extremely glad they learned the truth about the origins-even tho they may have been shocked at first. Some thank God every day for this knowledge. How people react to the shock is their perogative...I'm just responsible to expose the falsehood. Sharon, I'm truly sorry about your friends losing faith in God. I make a point of letting people know that it wasn't God who let them down--it was men they trusted above all others to speak the truth to them. Unless your friends who turned away from God have died, there is still time for them to turn back to Him. Keep praying for them. They could have eventually turned away anyway--while going to meetings--who knows that staying in mtgs would have kept them safe? Lots of variables here to consider. Todd wrote: Just because you cant think of "how else" or another better way for WmI to excommuicate John Long and get WmI's "This is God's Only True Way on Earth" message out there to his lay people doesn't mean one doesn't exist. PROVIDED JL's excommunication had really been a necessary action, which it was not (It was a HUGE mistake) it could have been done in private. Several innies on here freaked out over the thought of a worker even telling about the start-up of your church from the platform--and here you are implying it was perfectly OK for WmI to excommuicate his co-worker from the conv. platform--in front of all these people? Double standards??? Double STandards, Cherie? You bet your boots....I, myself, abhor people being lamblasted with negative things in a public venue....it is nowhere being loving and merciful at all! I empathize with JL and other's pain at the hands of WI's treatment...he was in no way an empathic man, he was a narcisstic person....didn't have the capability to empathize or maybe even to care about his fellow man...but that doesn't mean his co-workers did not. Did Jesus publicly embarass the adulterous woman? No, He didn't really want to discuss it with her accusers but they pushed the matter and who ended up being embarassed, convicted in their own hearts, leaving the one they wanted Jesus to convict and going home...... If that's having double standards and not wishing a dubious history to be preached from a platform before hundreds of people from all different countries and states....then so be it....it would not be very Christ like to leave those hundreds of people suffering the shock that even you yourself seem to have suffered now would it. I know how that feels and I don't like it.....I don't appreciate being left to deal with the shock alone, the hurt alone and I won't ask that of my brothers and sisters in Christ. I know what has happened to some...they've turned against God altogether....and I understand why, not that I agree with it...but I do understand their feelings. I also understand those who are bitter and have hatred, I don't agree with it, but I understand it. That's my "fit" about preaching the history from the platform....I think it needs to be done at least mtg. by mtg. and the workers do their best to help those who are completely decimated by the facts. Now don't you? I strongly suspect that a lot of the workers themselves are still reeling with the facts....the issue of so many leaving the work and then the truth's fellowship is a large example of the decimation of self that this thing is doing to people. Now Cherie, if you have NO compassion or empathy within you then go ahead and keep pouring these things on people....God will take care of it in HIS TIME....the rest of us must be patient, or it will DO NO GOOD! Thank you for any consideration you give this issue!
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Post by september on Feb 20, 2009 11:32:38 GMT -5
Do we want our kids and our friends to base their faith on our church.... ....or do we want our kids and our friends to base their faith on God the father and his son Jesus Christ? The latter. And that is what the preachers are there to preach. Have a look at the wheat story to see what would happen when effort is concentrated on preaching about past workers. We should be looking to Jesus. We do not belong to a reigion or have membership in any man made way. We belong to God. You think they don't preach past workers?!! They do that and better than that, they preach current workers too. I have lost count of the times I have heard older workers venerated from the platform – stories of dear “auntie” and dear “uncle” and how they brought the gospel to some place or another, the wonderful spirit that was evident in them, how we’d do well to emulate them, and not so long ago, the senior worker in this field venerated his younger companion on many occasions in the mission, so much so that one of the friends felt obliged to mention it was inappropriate, especially when there were “strangers” in the mission there on his invitation.
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Post by lin on Feb 20, 2009 12:02:27 GMT -5
How about a pamphlet explaining the origins given to all F&W? Would you prefer that? Just seems to me the workers ahve perpetuated the lie about their startup and origins from the platform so many times that it is the perfect venue to untell the lie. Turnabout is fair play--until what? until it reveals something ugly? There should be enough workers (and nurses?) at every convention to deal with the shock factor--if they would come out between meetings and let the people talk to them. FWIW, I haven't met an ex yet who wasn't extremely glad they learned the truth about the origins-even tho they may have been shocked at first. How people react to the shock is their perogative. I'm truly sorry about your friends losing faith in God. I make a point of letting people know that it wasn't God who let them down--but men. And unless your friends who turned away from God have died, there is still time for them to turn back to Him. Keep praying for them. They could have eventually turned away anyway--while going to meetings--who knows that staying in mtgs would have kept them safe? Lots of variables here to consider. Try the pamphlet Cherie. You might get the shock of your life. You might be the one who needs the nurse.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 20, 2009 12:09:23 GMT -5
You write it and I'll "try it." (whatever that means!) It needs to be written by an innie for it to have credibility with the F&Ws... Send me a copy when you're done. If its shocking yet TRUE--I can deal with it. How about a pamphlet explaining the origins given to all F&W? Would you prefer that? Try the pamphlet Cherie. You might get the shock of your life. You might be the one who needs the nurse.
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Post by lin on Feb 20, 2009 12:13:46 GMT -5
Your version of the history is better than mine. You wouldn't like mine. My version is too positive.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 20, 2009 12:18:26 GMT -5
They not only venerate the workers, past and present--they also love to hear, tell and read the stories about when the gospel came to XXX (insert name of family, city/town or country). I have a section for them on TTT.
All these stories are told over and over again--but do they tell about when the pioneering workers originally got together and started to become a ministry and church? There is only one Account written by a friend, and it is not much publicized by the F&Ws--and that is Goodhand Pattison's Account of the Early Days. Very few would know of it today except for websites hosted by exes which publish it.
Strange indeed.............
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Post by lin on Feb 20, 2009 12:23:31 GMT -5
I don't find that strange at all.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 20, 2009 12:27:06 GMT -5
Your version of the history is better than mine. You wouldn't like mine. My version is too positive. On second thought--a woman needs to be the one to write it. Women and children are the ones who suffer the most needlessly in that church.
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Post by lin on Feb 20, 2009 12:36:39 GMT -5
A new spin,but could be true
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 20, 2009 13:13:14 GMT -5
A new spin,but could be true Not new at all - it's quite old and ignored by the men who are in charge.
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Post by JO on Feb 20, 2009 14:30:51 GMT -5
Did Jesus publicly embarass the adulterous woman? No, He didn't really want to discuss it with her accusers but they pushed the matter and who ended up being embarassed, convicted in their own hearts, leaving the one they wanted Jesus to convict and going home...... If that's having double standards and not wishing a dubious history to be preached from a platform before hundreds of people from all different countries and states....then so be it....it would not be very Christ like to leave those hundreds of people suffering the shock that even you yourself seem to have suffered now would it. I know how that feels and I don't like it.....I don't appreciate being left to deal with the shock alone, the hurt alone and I won't ask that of my brothers and sisters in Christ. I know what has happened to some...they've turned against God altogether....and I understand why, not that I agree with it...but I do understand their feelings. I also understand those who are bitter and have hatred, I don't agree with it, but I understand it. That's my "fit" about preaching the history from the platform....I think it needs to be done at least mtg. by mtg. and the workers do their best to help those who are completely decimated by the facts. Now don't you? I strongly suspect that a lot of the workers themselves are still reeling with the facts....the issue of so many leaving the work and then the truth's fellowship is a large example of the decimation of self that this thing is doing to people. Now Cherie, if you have NO compassion or empathy within you then go ahead and keep pouring these things on people....God will take care of it in HIS TIME....the rest of us must be patient, or it will DO NO GOOD! Thank you for any consideration you give this issue! It's good to see you acknowledging there is a problem. Some on TMB maintain all is well. However, I'm not so sure God can be expected to take care of a problem created by man. I'm not so sure fear of the consequences of truth is a good reason to perpetuate a lie.
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 20, 2009 15:50:09 GMT -5
Do we want our kids and our friends to base their faith on our church.... ....or do we want our kids and our friends to base their faith on God the father and his son Jesus Christ? The latter. And that is what the preachers are there to preach. Have a look at the wheat story to see what would happen when effort is concentrated on preaching about past workers. We should be looking to Jesus. We do not belong to a reigion or have membership in any man made way. We belong to God. And of course that refers to everyone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, regardless of who they heard the Gospel of salvation through. Whether worker in your group or some other group. I guess Willis Propp excommunications could be placed in the same category as William Irvine with him excommunicating people. Modern day William Irvine.
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Post by Sharon on Feb 20, 2009 16:34:48 GMT -5
"FWIW, I haven't met an ex yet who wasn't extremely glad they learned the truth about the origins-even tho they may have been shocked at first. Some thank God every day for this knowledge. How people react to the shock is their perogative...I'm just responsible to expose the falsehood. "
Cherie, if your goal is to make "exes" then carry on...but remember the warning that Gamileal gave in Acts! There is a strong possibility that God used WI and coworkers for "His Own Purpose" at the time it began!
Beating a dead spirit with a falsehood is a very dangerous thing for what that spirit might beocome....I do not know how to press the urgency of care and love for any that might come into contact with your historical facts! Yes, I worry about them for the simple fact this board is a small example of those who've turned against Jesus Christ, there are some who are honest about it and some who are not...but are eaten up with bitterness and anger and hatred. It is dripping from this board everyday! I love the souls of every human being that walks this earth...I know what it is to be without peace and I also know what it is to be lulled into a false peace....but bar the door to those who disturbs that peace, for the result often are not what one is really looking for. Let God do this in His time, He's allowed this to perpetuate this many years, we can stand ready to do what little we can do without decimating people along the way. That wouldn't make us any better then those who've caused decimation that you're referring to, now would it. Why change anything if it doesn't make things better, eh....It is just a fact of life that some people do not have the individual strength to withstand certain kinds of disturbance. I really think that God is allowing those HE SEES ARE WELL ABLE to know what is what, and I'm content to make that HIS choice.....I can only be responsible for myself and I do and I will open up what I know when the opportunity presents itself....but I also have the ability to sense when there are just some who are not able to stand it yet, if ever.
quote: ", I'm truly sorry about your friends losing faith in God. I make a point of letting people know that it wasn't God who let them down--it was men they trusted above all others to speak the truth to them. "
Cherie, I've know of people to go to church for many, many years just because it was an expected thing to do(to me that's the same as worshipping something besides Jesus Christ) THEN when their hearts were ripe for the harvest, they turned to Jesus Christ. So to purposely turn people away from mtgs. or any church just because of a historical problem is like telling them they have NO need of learning about Jesus Christ...and that's not JMO! Take care for if this is of God, we will be found to be fighting against God. You want to scream He's against a lie...that may well be so, but it's like He uses the evil as well as the good to bring about HIS WILL...in HIS TIME....Pharoah in Exodus is the most famous example, I think!
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Post by Sharon on Feb 20, 2009 16:37:48 GMT -5
The latter. And that is what the preachers are there to preach. Have a look at the wheat story to see what would happen when effort is concentrated on preaching about past workers. We should be looking to Jesus. We do not belong to a reigion or have membership in any man made way. We belong to God. And of course that refers to everyone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, regardless of who they heard the Gospel of salvation through. Whether worker in your group or some other group. I guess Willis Propp excommunications could be placed in the same category as William Irvine with him excommunicating people. Modern day William Irvine. I think you have a point....it's troubling to see the inheritance being made manifest again more fully.....it seems to be that narcisstic personalities can gain the upper hand within any group led by men, no? There are others that are grievious as well!
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Post by JO on Feb 20, 2009 16:39:42 GMT -5
I guess Willis Propp excommunications could be placed in the same category as William Irvine with him excommunicating people. Modern day William Irvine. What some workers fail to understand is that God has never given them the right to hire and fire on his behalf. They are given the power (by man) to hire and fire on behalf of their organization, but God knows those who are his and their names are written in heaven. When Jesus opens the door no man can shut it. And when Jesus closes the door no man can open it. No man, not even a very responsible man with the rank of overseer.
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Post by Sharon on Feb 20, 2009 16:40:33 GMT -5
LOL... there you go again. Even in that post, you start with the "first listener" and place all the fault on that person instead of the liar. What a hoot. You want me to blame WI and WI alone? I'm afraid that won't wash before God....each of us are responsible for what we do with what we know! I'm thinking WI probably thought with all earnestness that this "clerical hatred" and what that brought about was the way it was. He actually could not help being a troubled personality and sad enough back in those days, few people understood that such a person would walk and talk and even exert great influence over others....it still happens today among the unleary, now doesn't it?
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Post by Sharon on Feb 20, 2009 16:45:04 GMT -5
The Shaz wrote: I strongly suspect that a lot of the workers themselves are still reeling with the facts....the issue of so many leaving the work and then the truth's fellowship is a large example of the decimation of self that this thing is doing to people.Sharon, I'm not aware of "many" leaving the work and then the fellowship. Are you speculating as to what "might" happen ? Personally, if such is the case, or is likely to result, it would be a good thing in this respect, that it would be clear evidence of how people had been duped into investing their faith in a system. The message is clear. Have faith in God through Jesus alone, not through the fusion of a system. Any who untangle themselves from such will feel true liberation in the spirit. No, I'm not speculating....there's been some of the most gentle and loving workers leave the work and a considerable number of those leave the fellowship! They're mostly quiet as to the why's but it doesn't take a rocket science to fit it all together....we've lost a number of young and up and coming workers in the last 5-10 yrs. or less in our area alone...that's about a 6 state area, btw!
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Post by Sharon on Feb 20, 2009 16:51:33 GMT -5
[quote author=jesusonly board
However, I'm not so sure God can be expected to take care of a problem created by man.
I'm not so sure fear of the consequences of truth is a good reason to perpetuate a lie.[/quote]
I believe very firmly that God WILL CORRECT ALL HE SEES NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED....I won't go into that right now because you're getting there and will see it for yourself soon.
God has proven His power to me.....I've read how He's used the evil to bring about the good and IN NO WAY am I saying all the history is Evil, no way! I sncerely believe most of the workers were duped by a very unfeeling and uncaring and unempathetic man. I think they looked up to him because he attended seminary school as far as some knew....they thought he'd been led in the scripture more then they had, they thought he'd be the very best overseer, leader of something they didn't have any idea of where it would go! It's immediate success swelled all their heads, I suppose....disenabled them to see beyond the very short moment....I think if some of those men/women could have seen what we're discussing on this board, they too would have run to the thickets of the rainforest! ;D
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