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Post by JO on Feb 18, 2009 0:58:45 GMT -5
So was Ford the starter or the founder? ~~~ Founder of making or came up with the idea Intermitted wipers?
What do you think? Was the Ford the founder or starter that came up with the idea intermittent wipers? Looks like strife over words to me.
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Post by JO on Feb 18, 2009 1:01:42 GMT -5
nathan, Maybe it's time you started to read ACTUAL historical documents instead of the so-called "documents" you pretend exist on your site. Hey, ilylo.... did you forget to answer the question on purpose?~~~ N9: Yes I don't understand.... so Can you answer one simple question for me, Did William Started the 2x2 church in 1897 or NOT? .... you still believe the 2x2 church is 111 yrs old.... Could that number be wrong, now? because in 1897 William Irivine was a Faith Mission preacher NOT a 2x2 worker according to John Long's journal in Sept. 1897. Can you take a few second of your time and tell us your answer, please.Those days it was possible to be a Faith Mission worker and 2x2 worker simultaneously - they were not mutually exclusive. Read Pattison and John Long carefully, with an open mind, and it will be clear to you.
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Post by ilylo on Feb 18, 2009 1:28:46 GMT -5
Go do your homework, nathan. I'm not going to spoonfeed you when the information is readily available for you to read on your own time. Put the pudding pot between your ears to use.
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Post by ilylo on Feb 18, 2009 2:13:48 GMT -5
So if William Irvine didn't start the 2x2 church in 1897, then what year did he start it?
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Post by ilylo on Feb 18, 2009 2:17:36 GMT -5
What year did William Irvine start the 2x2 church, nathan? YOU answer.
This is why nobody buys what you sell, nathan. You're full of hot air. You argue that William Irvine didn't start the 2x2 church in 1897, but you refuse to even attempt to back up your own argument, much less actually back it up with actual substance. You have nothing to say, and you say it regularly.
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Post by JO on Feb 18, 2009 3:24:36 GMT -5
Nathan, in the culture these guys were in 110 years ago "profess" meant something like "believe and follow Jesus Christ".
"Professing" was nothing to do with belonging to any particular religious group.
"In the work" meant something like "dedicated to preaching the gospel and winning souls for Christ".
"In the work" was nothing to do with belonging to any particular religious group.
As I said before, a worker could be in the Faith Mission and Willie Irvine's mission simultaneously.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Uncle Willie didn't wake up one day and say "I'm going to leave the Faith Mission and start the 2x2 church".
I might add we should be thankful Cherie is making the effort to assemble the history of our church in a professional manner. No one in the church seems willing and able to do so.
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Post by todd on Feb 18, 2009 3:30:00 GMT -5
What year did William Irvine start the 2x2 church, nathan? YOU answer. This is why nobody buys what you sell, nathan. You're full of hot air. You argue that William Irvine didn't start the 2x2 church in 1897, but you refuse to even attempt to back up your own argument, much less actually back it up with actual substance. You have nothing to say, and you say it regularly. Yeah Nathan, if you are going to claim that William Irvine wasn't the founder of the 2x2 church, then you should back it up by saying what year he founded it!!... haha
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 18, 2009 3:35:05 GMT -5
John Long was there in the beginning and he said this in his Journal for June, 1907:
Now I come to the saddest events and most painful, trying and unexpected that I met with during my life’s experience; namely having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, TEN YEARS AGO.
1907 minus 10 years = 1897 start date per JL.
Also, John Long was the one who, along with Wm Irvine:
“…being the two instruments used of God at the origin of that movement.” (1907) “…namely the right of fellowship in the Mission I helped to start.” (1907)
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 18, 2009 7:18:18 GMT -5
I'm not at your beck and call, Nate... If you dont know the answers to your many questions posed on here lately, then a good intensive study of the 2x2 historical documents will do you a lot of good. It's always best to research what you want to know for yourself. So if William Irvine didn't start the 2x2 church in 1897, then what year did he start it? ~~~ Let us wait on Cherie K the expert on the 2x2 church. Perhaps, she can TELL us the exact DAY, month and year. She SAID WI founded the 2x2 church herself.
Good nite for now... Let us see tomorrow.... what day, month, and year she will come up with when William Irvine founded the 2x2 church.
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Post by todd on Feb 18, 2009 7:24:31 GMT -5
John Long was there in the beginning and he said this in his Journal for June, 1907: Now I come to the saddest events and most painful, trying and unexpected that I met with during my life’s experience; namely having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, TEN YEARS AGO. 1907 minus 10 years = 1897 start date per JL. From the beginning?!?... So John Long was the first preacher then!! Oh boy... we are sure getting some contradicting information here. As I said in post #463, these Mary/virgin-like contradictions will go on forever if you leave the truth out.
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Post by todd on Feb 18, 2009 7:36:38 GMT -5
The ministry is ministry, much the same as the earth is earth No, you're missing the point. You can minister to your fellow man, but you can't earth to him. No, you're missing the point. What I said was... The ministry is ministry, much the same as the earth is earth What I didn't say was... The ministry is the same as earth
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 18, 2009 7:43:15 GMT -5
Cant you read Todd? the quote reads: . ..from ITS beginning.John Long was there in the beginning and he said this in his Journal for June, 1907: Now I come to the saddest events and most painful, trying and unexpected that I met with during my life’s experience; namely having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, TEN YEARS AGO. 1907 minus 10 years = 1897 start date per JL. From the beginning?!?... So John Long was the first preacher then!! Oh boy... we are sure getting some contradicting information here. As I said in post #463, these Mary/virgin-like contradictions will go on forever if you leave the truth out.
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Post by ilylo on Feb 18, 2009 8:04:01 GMT -5
What year did William Irvine start the 2x2 church, nathan? YOU answer. This is why nobody buys what you sell, nathan. You're full of hot air. You argue that William Irvine didn't start the 2x2 church in 1897, but you refuse to even attempt to back up your own argument, much less actually back it up with actual substance. You have nothing to say, and you say it regularly. Yeah Nathan, if you are going to claim that William Irvine wasn't the founder of the 2x2 church, then you should back it up by saying what year he founded it!!... haha todd, Not that I expect your reading comprehension to have experienced any improvement since yesterday, but you misquoted nathan's argument. Feel free to try again. Oh, and next time, please have something to say. So far you've had nothing to say, and you keep repeating yourself.
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Post by lin on Feb 18, 2009 8:31:09 GMT -5
What is this a tag team scenario? I get in the ring you get out,you get out I get back in? LOL
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Post by todd on Feb 18, 2009 8:31:30 GMT -5
Cant you read Todd? the quote reads: . ..from ITS beginning.From the beginning?!?... So John Long was the first preacher then!! Oh boy... we are sure getting some contradicting information here. As I said in post #463, these Mary/virgin-like contradictions will go on forever if you leave the truth out. Yes I can generally read most words and what I read said ..from ITS beginning.What that means is that either those who say that WI was the first are lying, or John Long was lying. I am not getting into the argument about who is right or wrong but there is a contradiction here. I won't be losing sleep over it
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Post by todd on Feb 18, 2009 8:34:30 GMT -5
Yeah Nathan, if you are going to claim that William Irvine wasn't the founder of the 2x2 church, then you should back it up by saying what year he founded it!!... haha todd, Not that I expect your reading comprehension to have experienced any improvement since yesterday, but you misquoted nathan's argument. Feel free to try again. Oh, and next time, please have something to say. So far you've had nothing to say, and you keep repeating yourself. Which argument did I misquote? I'd be happy to try again if you show me what you are talking about.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 9:25:27 GMT -5
Cant you read Todd? the quote reads: . ..from ITS beginning.Yes I can generally read most words and what I read said ..from ITS beginning.What that means is that either those who say that WI was the first are lying, or John Long was lying. I am not getting into the argument about who is right or wrong but there is a contradiction here. I won't be losing sleep over it Todd, the reference is dealing with the beginning of the fellowship, NOT who began it. Your argument is like arguing over a tin of beans and who tinned them. Two separate issues.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 18, 2009 9:32:57 GMT -5
Scott: Could you tell us when WINGS officially began?
For example: Was it when you and Juliette & John went to see Lyle re the Tim S. situation in MN? Was it when the idea for the WINGS website was first mentioned? Was it when 2-3 gathered together to discuss the matter? Was it when the first group members began assembling information for a future website? Was it when the name WINGS was agreed upon? Was it when the domain name was purchased for the website? Was it when the website actually went on-line?
Please give us the exact year, month and day.
Thank you in advance for this informations, Scott Cherie
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Post by Lee on Feb 18, 2009 9:50:54 GMT -5
The idea of just sticking to the facts of history is a great idea, That's never been in evidence by you or Nathan, mind games are your occupational preference.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 18, 2009 9:53:49 GMT -5
Hi Cherie, Scott: Could you tell us when WINGS officially began?
For example: Was it when you and Juliette & John went to see Lyle re the Tim S. situation in MN? Was it when the idea for the WINGS website was first mentioned? Was it when 2-3 gathered together to discuss the matter? Was it when the first group members began assembling information for a future website? Was it when the name WINGS was agreed upon? Was it when the domain name was purchased for the website? Was it when the website actually went on-line in March, 2008?
Thanx, CK Actually, it is a little known fact that WINGS began around the beginning of the last decade with a little known group of people who were having a potluck gathering. One of those at the potluck was talking with another dude who was slightly deaf and mentioned how he really liked the chicken wings that Mildred had fried up. The slightly deaf guy nodded his head in agreement (His mouth was full of tuna casserole) and then later told a friend that he had heard that someone had founded something they were calling WINGS. The name stuck, and when the opportunity arose we utilized the name to identify the group. It became an acronym meaning Working to INform Guide and Support. Seriously..... (which I have a tough time with on occasion) WINGS was 'founded' based on the cumulative efforts of several people who are both professing and exes based on the mutual belief that a web site addressing the issue of CSA within the truth fellowship was needed. The exact date will probably remained obscured in history, and may never be known. In about 1900 years, historians will possibly place it as having originated in a mountain valley located in the rocky Mountains where the local natives yodeled their thoughts to each other across the valley...... Scott
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Post by Sharon on Feb 18, 2009 9:58:40 GMT -5
John Long was there in the beginning and he said this in his Journal for June, 1907: Now I come to the saddest events and most painful, trying and unexpected that I met with during my life’s experience; namely having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, TEN YEARS AGO. 1907 minus 10 years = 1897 start date per JL. Also, John Long was the one who, along with Wm Irvine:“ …being the two instruments used of God at the origin of that movement.” (1907) “…namely the right of fellowship in the Mission I helped to start.” (1907) I believe the sincerity of John Long's words here...I've thought all along that he was co-founder or co-starter which ever word pleases everybody along with WI...though EC cannot be disallowed in regards to the congregational gatherings!
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Post by Sharon on Feb 18, 2009 10:08:26 GMT -5
See the W.I.N.G.S. history line isn't so set in ink either...maybe it'd be very good for them to come to that conclusion before they (the original group) set the time line and the "founder".....I firmly believe if anything is worth doing then history should be recorded so that it can be appropriately known and not all this did he/did she and when/who/where thing....just an example going before us is the extensive work it is taking to gather all the information about the truth's fellowship...some argue it isn't necessary but for accuracy maybe it is?
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 18, 2009 10:26:09 GMT -5
See the W.I.N.G.S. history line isn't so set in ink either...maybe it'd be very good for them to come to that conclusion before they (the original group) set the time line and the "founder".....We have no founder. We trace ourselves back to the shores of potluckee.... Those who claim we have a founder are just bitter people with weak stomachs who once thought as we did and then left to follow their own way. They now eat at Mcdonalds or one of the many other modern places you see. Even though we still have our potlucks as originally were established (with a few Spirit led changes which have evolved throughout the years) these people have embraced a new idea which does NOT go back to the shores of potluckee. We are exclusive in that regard. We meet in homes and grange halls for our potlucks, and others have now begun meeting in buildings specifically designed for eating.... Scott
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Post by Sharon on Feb 18, 2009 10:30:31 GMT -5
You're so funny, Scott!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 18, 2009 10:32:20 GMT -5
Sharon, probably your comment could be extended to ANY group's period of formation or start-up or founding. The transition period. What one person may view as the group's origin or genesis isn't what another person thinks it is. Doesnt "the beginning" turn on what was the initial starting point? And even the participants aren't in agreement. I go with John Long - who said it was 1897, and he was present at the time. He was a primary witness. As to WINGS - I think it began when J, J and Scott went to Lyle. Thats not how Scott sees it tho...is there a right and wrong beginning? Or just many definitions for the initial "Beginning?" The transition from the Old Law to the New Covenant in the Bible didn't happen overnight. It wasn't until the temple was destroyed that the transition was completed...(I think)! Transitons out of and in to something new are not usually instantaneous. They happen over time. Then groups often divide up duties and responsibilities and assign these to be accomplished by various individuals. Often the group retains a head or president; sometimes not. IMO, it looks like that is what happened in the 2x2 sect...just my thots. See the W.I.N.G.S. history line isn't so set in ink either...maybe it'd be very good for them to come to that conclusion before they (the original group) set the time line and the "founder".....I firmly believe if anything is worth doing then history should be recorded so that it can be appropriately known and not all this did he/did she and when/who/where thing....just an example going before us is the extensive work it is taking to gather all the information about the truth's fellowship...some argue it isn't necessary but for accuracy maybe it is?
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Post by Sharon on Feb 18, 2009 10:38:15 GMT -5
I'm not much for history, Cherie, but I do feel giving credit where credit is due is the most appropriate thing. Yes, I agree with John Long being the co-starter as I read several things within your site to indicate to me that he had a lot of input about it at the beginning, but simply because he removed himself just few yrs. later he perhaps didn't feel up to being the founder or co-founder? Just like you said, you and Scott do not agree on the beginning of WINGS!
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Post by ilylo on Feb 18, 2009 10:43:35 GMT -5
What is this a tag team scenario? I get in the ring you get out,you get out I get back in? LOL Yeah, it's a real hoot watching people like nathan and you chase your tails desperately trying to spin the history of the 2x2 church into something other than the truth.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 18, 2009 11:13:40 GMT -5
He removed himself? ? NOT! J Long was the first MAJOR ex-COMMUNICATION in the group! WmI put J Long out while he was preaching on the conv. platform in 1907. It was horrible! Read John Long's Journal for the year 1907... I'm not much for history, Cherie, but I do feel giving credit where credit is due is the most appropriate thing. Yes, I agree with John Long being the co-starter as I read several things within your site to indicate to me that he had a lot of input about it at the beginning, but simply because he removed himself just few yrs. later he perhaps didn't feel up to being the founder or co-founder? Just like you said, you and Scott do not agree on the beginning of WINGS!
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