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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 17, 2009 18:43:34 GMT -5
Saying that the F&W’s wouldn’t be worshipping like they are unless it was for WI is completely unproven, and I don’t even want to hear that comment made ever again I've been pointing this out for a long time, Todd! Either God was involved or He wasn't. Anyone who says f&w's wouldn't exist today were it not for Irvine had better be willing to admit in the next breath that Christians would not exist today were it not for characters such as Paul or Constantine. Who's in charge, here? God or a buncha men?
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Post by lin on Feb 17, 2009 18:45:43 GMT -5
Who's in charge where on TMB?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 17, 2009 18:53:17 GMT -5
lol. Who's in charge in keeping faith on the earth.
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Post by lin on Feb 17, 2009 19:04:38 GMT -5
I know what you meant,just joshing. We can be glad God is in charge.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Feb 17, 2009 19:20:03 GMT -5
I think probably God abandoned TMB.
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Post by lin on Feb 17, 2009 19:22:23 GMT -5
If He was ever here.
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Post by todd on Feb 17, 2009 19:34:05 GMT -5
One good thing about Uncle Willie going off the rails is we can give him credit for starting the mission without any danger of him being cannonized. Regarding the name to decribe our church, "the truth" is probably the most commonly recognized amongst innies. I personally refuse to use it because Jesus referred to himself as "the truth". "Christian Conventions" is the name normally used to register the church in North America, Australia and New Zealand. Is it used in Europe and the UK? To be bluntly honest, I am wondering how off the rails he was to start with...delusions of grandeur don't just up and start suddenly unless there's brain tumor....and he apparently didn't die from a brain tumor. I also have to wonder if after all of this had been seemingly a great success if the workers who dispensed with him, didn't think the same thing and that's why the repression of the historical facts all along? ?? But they found themselves very responsible for a large number of people and it still was growing? Will we ever get the answer to that problem? Sharon, You haven’t been able to explain it by natural means, but I don’t think that means he didn’t have a big change in his life. In the different accounts that I have read, I see God was simply removing those who were getting proud and trying to attach their name to something that was of him. WI said “No WI, No testimony”, and that was wrong. God seemed to be at work here, and that may be beyond all natural explanation. It reminds me of those that said “Not even God can sink the Titanic”. Bad thing to say!!! And what caused it to sink? The man who had the key to the binocular cabinet in the crows nest was transferred off the ship at the last minute. Yes!!!… their vision was dimmed. God is in control.
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Post by degem on Feb 17, 2009 19:40:33 GMT -5
"With God nothing is impossible."
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Post by Sharon on Feb 17, 2009 20:21:13 GMT -5
To be bluntly honest, I am wondering how off the rails he was to start with...delusions of grandeur don't just up and start suddenly unless there's brain tumor....and he apparently didn't die from a brain tumor. I also have to wonder if after all of this had been seemingly a great success if the workers who dispensed with him, didn't think the same thing and that's why the repression of the historical facts all along? ?? But they found themselves very responsible for a large number of people and it still was growing? Will we ever get the answer to that problem? Sharon, You haven’t been able to explain it by natural means, but I don’t think that means he didn’t have a big change in his life. In the different accounts that I have read, I see God was simply removing those who were getting proud and trying to attach their name to something that was of him. WI said “No WI, No testimony”, and that was wrong. God seemed to be at work here, and that may be beyond all natural explanation. It reminds me of those that said “Not even God can sink the Titanic”. Bad thing to say!!! And what caused it to sink? The man who had the key to the binocular cabinet in the crows nest was transferred off the ship at the last minute. Yes!!!… their vision was dimmed. God is in control. Below is one of the most common reasons for delusions of grandeur, or grandiose! A bi-polar disorder is the other! Definition Narcissistic personality disorder is a condition characterized by an inflated sense of self-importance and an extreme preoccupation with one's self. Causes, incidence, and risk factors The cause of this disorder is unknown. Narcissistic personality disorder usually begins by early adulthood and is marked by disregard for the feelings of others, grandiosity, obsessive self-interest, and the pursuit of primarily selfish goals. Symptoms A person with narcissistic personality disorder: Reacts to criticism with feelings or rage, shame, or humiliation Takes advantage of others to achieve own goals Has feelings of self-importance Exaggerates achievements and talents Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment Requires constant attention and admiration Lacks empathy Signs and tests Personality disorders are diagnosed based on a psychological evaluation and the history and severity of the symptoms. Treatment Psychotherapy may help the affected person relate to others in a more positive and compassionate manner. Expectations (prognosis) The outcome varies with the severity of the disorder. Complications Relationship and family problems Alcohol or other drug dependence The complications of WI with immoral lifestyle and inability to have a true bond with the men who he so proudly boasted he was a credit to? The man had deep personality problems and of course with time, they just became more apparent without treatment!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 17, 2009 20:38:53 GMT -5
You missing me, Lin? or do you need something?
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Post by JO on Feb 17, 2009 21:01:26 GMT -5
Todd, I'm not sure that you want to know the beginnings of our fellowship or how much you've read. A good place to start is the Pattison account because Pattison was there and he does an excellent job of recording what happened for his son who was in the work.
To me its clear that William Irvine started the mission and later the mission started Sunday AM meetings, conventions etc which evolved into what we have today.
Is anyone saying WI invented Sunday AM meetings? Or an itinerant ministry? I don't think so.
Folks can argue about whether God was behind it or not, but really there's no argument about whether William Irvine started the mission that George Walker, the Carrolls, Wilson McClung, Edward Coonie etc worked in. You either accept the well-documented facts or you bury your head in the sand.
Our group was called "Cooneyites" simply because Eddie was the best known of those early workers. I'm pretty sure he never wanted the mission named after him.
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Post by lin on Feb 17, 2009 21:01:39 GMT -5
Neither
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Post by JO on Feb 17, 2009 22:46:42 GMT -5
Nathan, you need to read this before you write anything more about the history of our church:
www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.php
Then you could read John Long's Journal. Here is an extract that covers the beginnings of our church:JULY: In Tarbert, where he had a mission, and scattered much tracts, he was suffering reproach; nevertheless, he was very happy, but at times repining over the Spiritual laxity of the churches; and was spending much time in prayer for a revival. I went very far out into the country, and succeeded in selling some Testaments. On my return Irvine, encouraged by my success, under the power of a special anointing, filled a bag with Testaments, and went into the country at twilight and sold thirteen, and when he could not get money he took eggs instead, and returned home at eleven o'clock at night. He was out of an opening, and one day when he was praying, it was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit, to write to Goodhand Pattison, the Cloughjordan Methodist Steward about an opening for a mission. That letter resulted in him getting permission from William Whittaker, the Methodist Minister, to have the use of Nenagh Methodist Church. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER 5 1897-THE REVIVAL AUGUST: I left Tarbert, and went to my Aunt Kate Davis, in Ballyheigue, where I spent two weeks. William Irvine and Fred Tapp left also and went to Spanish Point, and from there to Nenagh where THE REVIVAL BEGAN. After we left Tarbert we were all denounced by the priest from off the altar. From Ballyheigue, I removed to Tralee. I left there for home, greatly discouraged for lack of money. I purposed to give up the work but to love Jesus as much as ever. In one week I returned to it again, being encouraged by the friendly counsel of some who wished me well. The revival began in a town which was mostly a Roman population, under very unfavourable circumstances; owing to bad attendances, the Methodist Church was closed, as the Protestants in that town were few in number. At his [Wm Irvine’s] first meeting only five persons attended; but at the closing meeting, there were one hundred present. He fought the battle and won the victory alone in prayer with God in his lodging, when God gave him that promise; "And lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee." Acts 27:24. The Protestant School Mistress, Sister Oakley, was the first to get saved; altogether upwards of thirty persons of position and note got converted; most of them afterwards gave up all that they had to follow Jesus. SEPTEMBER: During that month I visited Portumna and Borrisokane. Pastor Nesbitt resigned the superintendency of the Colportage work and Pastor Merrick accepted it. The society paid me the debt which enabled me to buy a second hand bicycle; it turned out to be of great use to me during the revival days that followed. At the mission held in Nenagh, a young man named Jack Carroll, also his sister May Carroll, got converted; they had a brother, Bill Carroll, who was a steward at Captain Fowlers, Rathmolyon, County Meath. Through their instrumentality they got the use of the School House in Rathmolyon for a mission for William Irvine, where forty persons got converted; most of them afterwards gave up their situations to go fully on the Lord's work. The Episcopal minister and his daughter attended the meetings and were sympathetic; he said that God sent that man in answer to his mother's prayers; who prayed for the conversion of every member of that congregation. The humility, love, self denial, compassion, humour, etc. of the Evangelist, also his complete abandonment to God won the affections of all who came in contact with him. OCTOBER: About that time I visited Banagher and Birr, but found it getting harder to sell among the Romans, however I managed by aid of the bicycle to reach far off districts and villages. The little town of Roscrea, Kings County, had a fair congregation of warm hearted Methodists; one feature of their work for God was a very good Christian Endeavour made up of Episcopalians and Methodist. At that time they were favoured with a very eminent Godly Minister named Crookshanks. On hearing of the Revivals in Nenagh and Rathmolyon, Pastor Crookshanks invited William Irvine to have a mission there, when many young people decided for Christ, and the Endeavour meetings got great blessing. After that mission William Irvine crossed to Scotland, just in time to see his mother before her death. I had a letter from him telling me about the success of the missions, and saying that he expected to soon return again to labour in the South of Ireland, as he believed the good work had only begun; he gave me exhortation to go forward looking unto Jesus, letting God have his way in and through our lives. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/1longjohn.php#1897Todd, I'm not sure that you want to know the beginnings of our fellowship or how much you've read. A good place to start is the Pattison account because Pattison was there and he does an excellent job of recording what happened for his son who was in the work. To me its clear that William Irvine started the mission and later the mission started Sunday AM meetings, conventions etc which evolved into what we have today. Is anyone saying WI invented Sunday AM meetings? Or an itinerant ministry? I don't think so. Folks can argue about whether God was behind it or not, but really there's no argument about whether William Irvine started the mission that George Walker, the Carrolls, Wilson McClung, Edward Coonie etc worked in. You either accept the well-documented facts or you bury your head in the sand. Our group was called "Cooneyites" simply because Eddie was the best known of those early workers. I'm pretty sure he never wanted the mission named after him. ~~~ Jesusonly.... Who is this Patterson? Can you tell us more about him. Where does he fit in the early days picture. Thanks! This is getting more interesting all the time.
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Post by JO on Feb 17, 2009 22:52:10 GMT -5
Note what John Long had to say about William Irvine:
The humility, love, self denial, compassion, humour, etc. of the Evangelist, also his complete abandonment to God won the affections of all who came in contact with him.
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Post by JO on Feb 17, 2009 23:23:35 GMT -5
John Long wrote: SEPTEMBER 1897: During that month I visited Portumna and Borrisokane. Pastor Nesbitt resigned the superintendency of the Colportage work and Pastor Merrick accepted it. The society paid me the debt which enabled me to buy a second hand bicycle; it turned out to be of great use to me during the revival days that followed. At the mission held in Nenagh, a young man named Jack Carroll, also his sister May Carroll, got converted;~~~ hmmmm.... according to Faith Mission workers/preachers record that May Carroll was a Faith Mission sister worker in 11/19/1899.
Yes, many of those who professed in William Irvine's Nenagh mission went into the work. Remember that William Irvine was a Faith Mission worker at the time. There was no "them and us" attitude between William's mission and the Faith Mission. They pulled together in the cause of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and winning souls for Christ. Nathan, if you read the Pattison letter again carefully you'll learn more about Goodhand Pattison. There is even more about him in the John Long Journal. If you seriously want to learn about church history you'll carefully read both.
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Post by JO on Feb 17, 2009 23:36:05 GMT -5
It's very simple Nathan, but you're not listening. The mission that William Irvine started can be traced to the Nenagh mission in 1897, where Jack and May Carroll and several other workers professed through William Irvine's efforts. The fact that he was a Faith Mission worker is immaterial to the discussion. His brief as a Faith Mission worker at the time was to win souls for Christ, and if they went on to preach the gospel (under the Faith Mission umbrella or otherwise) that was better still. He preached the gospel of Jesus Christ and many professed and remained in fellowship with William until 1913 - 1914 when they parted ways. Yes, many of those who professed in William Irvine's Nenagh mission went into the work. Remember that William Irvine was a Faith Mission worker at the time. There was no "them and us" attitude between William's mission and the Faith Mission. They pulled together in the cause of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and winning souls for Christ. Nathan, if you read the Pattison letter again carefully you'll learn more about Goodhand Pattison. There is more about him in the John Long Journal. If you seriously want to learn about church history you'll carefully read both. hmmmmmmm again.... Wiliam Irivne was a Faith Mission worker in 1897 then why the ex-2x2s say He is the founder of the 2x2 church founder in 1897?..... Have they got the starting or the founding year wrong for all these years?
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Post by JO on Feb 17, 2009 23:51:50 GMT -5
1) JO wrote: It's very simple Nathan, but you're not listening. The mission that William Irvine started can be traced to the Nenagh mission in 1897, where Jack and May Carroll and several other workers professed through William Irvine's efforts. The fact that he was a Faith Mission worker is immaterial to the discussion. His brief as a Faith Mission worker at the time was to win souls for Christ, and if they went on to preach the gospel (under the Faith Mission umbrella or otherwise) that was better still. He preached the gospel of Jesus Christ and many professed and remained in fellowship with William until 1913 - 1914 when they parted ways. ~~~ Yes, I read all that.... My question to you is when do you THINK William FOUNDED or your word STARTED the 2x2 church? Several of the early workers and friends started having fellowship with William Irvine at the time of the Nenagh mission which was probably around August 1897, and William's mission grew from that. So that was when William started the mission, from which the 2x2 church evolved over the next few years.
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Post by ilylo on Feb 17, 2009 23:52:48 GMT -5
...and the hair has been split yet again.
Why does the history of the 2x2 church offend so many to the point that they are tripping all over themselves to spin this in so many ways...
Easy. Brainwashing.
William Irvine started the 2x2 church. Period.
...but the blind shall continue to spin it any which way but true.
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Post by todd on Feb 18, 2009 0:02:18 GMT -5
This is supposed to be a statement of historical events, not a statement of faith. I get it. It's like saying "Jesus was born of Mary" and leaving it at that. The idea of just sticking to the facts of history is a great idea , but that should also include where the crucial facts are that God was involved? If God did something, then that is a fact, whether everyone believes it or not. No matter what fact it is that has been documented in the past, you are still relying on people having faith that it is the truth. Even the words of WI/EC, when they said that they aren’t starting anything new, is a fact that people can either believe or not. And it is important to mention where God was involved, because that does make a difference to subsequent facts. Take the Mary/Virgin issue. The first fact of this matter is that Mary was a virgin. The second fact is that Mary had a child. Now, obviously most people that see a pregnant woman are going to assume that she isn’t a virgin because that is mostly the case. I would be surprised if there have ever been any pregnant virgins other than Mary. It would be extremely rare. So you can see that you haven’t been able to give anywhere near a picture of what was going on here, because in people’s mind is conflicting perceptions. The truth is that God was involved, and it was real. He actually did that. It is a fact whether people have enough faith to believe it or not. Some people may assume that lies have been told and that it was actually Joseph that did it, much like the argument that lies have been told, and WI actually did it. Unless you know the complete truth, or if you wilfully ignore God’s involvement in something that he was involved, you aren’t ever going to be able to establish the truth of how Mary, a virgin, had a baby. Regarding the facts pertaining to WI and EC, people have been using this natural reasoning to work out what happened, and it leaves them very short of what was really happening, and they get confused and even disagree on what the facts are because they don’t want to include the fact that God was involved in the process. To use Mary/Virgin as an example again, what you will get is people trying to establish a ‘history statement’ and some will be saying that Mary was a virgin, and some will be saying that she couldn’t have been a virgin because she had a son, and you won’t even get people to agree on the facts, even though both people will be waving their hard documental evidence at each other. And that is exactly what is happening with this ‘founder’ issue… nobody can even agree on what happened, simply because they base their assumptions without consideration to a superior power. This will cause you to argue for the rest of your life about whether Mary was a virgin or Mary had a son
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Post by todd on Feb 18, 2009 0:08:22 GMT -5
William Irvine started the mission By this, do you mean that he was the first, or do you mean that this was his idea? Remember the title of this thread and what we are trying to establish here.
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Post by ilylo on Feb 18, 2009 0:08:39 GMT -5
...and the hair has been split yet again. Why does the history of the 2x2 church offend so many to the point that they are tripping all over themselves to spin this in so many ways... Easy. Brainwashing. William Irvine started the 2x2 church. Period. ...but the blind shall continue to spin it any which way but true. ~~~ Why did you change your sign from FOUNDER to Starter of the 2x2 church?Didn't you believe WI founder... opps Starter the 2x2 church in 1897? Do you still believe William Irivine started in 1897? or has that changed also?nathan, It makes no difference what I call it. Too bad you don't understand.
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Post by JO on Feb 18, 2009 0:09:13 GMT -5
...and the hair has been split yet again. Why does the history of the 2x2 church offend so many to the point that they are tripping all over themselves to spin this in so many ways... Easy. Brainwashing. William Irvine started the 2x2 church. Period. ...but the blind shall continue to spin it any which way but true. ~~~ Why did you change your sign from FOUNDER to Starter of the 2x2 church?Didn't you believe WI founder... opps Starter the 2x2 church in 1897? Do you still believe William Irivine started in 1897? or has that changed also?Nate, what do you think is the difference between founded and started? Some on TMB get into strife over words and definitions. I don't mind whether you use "started" or "founded". I do try to make it as simple as possible for folks to get their head around it.
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Post by todd on Feb 18, 2009 0:11:18 GMT -5
jo, I've been wrong before but I thought the ministry ministered??? The emphasis should be on ministry, not the ministry. The ministry is ministry, much the same as the earth is earth
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Post by JO on Feb 18, 2009 0:13:44 GMT -5
William Irvine started the mission By this, do you mean that he was the first, or do you mean that this was his idea? Remember the title of this thread and what we are trying to establish here. William Irvine started the mission that George Walker, the Carrolls, Eddie Coonie, Wilson McClung et al. worked in. He was also the first worker in William Irvine's mission. Why do you need to know whose idea it was?
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Post by ilylo on Feb 18, 2009 0:14:45 GMT -5
nathan,
Maybe it's time you started to read ACTUAL historical documents instead of the so-called "documents" you pretend exist on your site.
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Post by JO on Feb 18, 2009 0:15:08 GMT -5
The emphasis should be on ministry, not the ministry. The ministry is ministry, much the same as the earth is earth No, you're missing the point. You can minister to your fellow man, but you can't earth to him.
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Post by todd on Feb 18, 2009 0:17:54 GMT -5
~~~ Why did you change your sign from FOUNDER to Starter of the 2x2 church?Didn't you believe WI founder... opps Starter the 2x2 church in 1897? Do you still believe William Irivine started in 1897? or has that changed also? Nate, what do you think is the difference between founded and started? Ford started making intermittent wipers but they weren't the founder. That's for sure It makes a difference because of the title of this thread and what it is we are trying to establish. Thanks!!!
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Post by JO on Feb 18, 2009 0:21:57 GMT -5
Nate, what do you think is the difference between founded and started? Ford started making intermittent wipers but they weren't the founder. So was Ford the starter or the founder?
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