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Post by hope on Oct 5, 2008 3:58:51 GMT -5
2 Tim 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof" If the workers and professing believe that the 2x2 are indeed the modern day church of acts - the first christians- then why are they consumed with such prayerlessness and no gifts of the spirit (tongues, prophecy, healing). Why do they hold onto old testament rules such a women must dress differently from men (interpreted as not wearing pants/trousers) yet they do not embrace the new testament teachings such as the laying on of hands or anointing with oil when praying. The church of the Acts - the first christians were prayer warriors, they met continuously for Godly fellowship (not just in a formal way) they prayed openly for each other crying out to God, they prophesied and saw visions, they spoke to God in the prayer language -tongues, they glorified the Lord Jesus as saviour from sins. it was an amazing time of great outpouring... there lives were consumed by God. Why do the f&w deny the power of the Holy Spirit? God will only pour it out on those who will recieve and believe~ a form of religion without the power of the Holy Spirit?? ~
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Oct 5, 2008 10:59:23 GMT -5
Hope there are threads that have discussed this topic. Most here dont accept the spiritual gifts for today.
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theophilia
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Post by theophilia on Oct 22, 2008 13:02:40 GMT -5
Dear shushy, Eisegetically Love in Christ, Theo
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Post by toffeecrumble on Oct 29, 2008 12:48:14 GMT -5
What does that mean, Theo. Please explain!
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Oct 29, 2008 19:21:10 GMT -5
[Sorry, no dictionaries indexed in the selected category contain the word Eisegetically] ? Comprehende nony nony
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Oct 29, 2008 19:22:24 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit is within us, the power of the universe!! Comeon people. you dont know who you are.
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theophilia
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Post by theophilia on Oct 30, 2008 18:38:51 GMT -5
Dear Friends,
Eisegesis is, admittedly, a high-brow jargon word. My apologies.
It means to 'read in' a meaning to scripture, where as exegesis is to 'read out' one.
In Christ,
Theo
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Oct 31, 2008 3:29:17 GMT -5
Dear Theo, With the greatest respect the stuff you have yet to learn is not to be found in books, therefore you'll likely have to learn it at the same pace as the rest of us. Sometimes the more points you score, the further behind you are.
You're a sharp lad so I trust you'll not take offence.
Your brother, Otto
PS: Thank you for your kind comments on another thread. I was tempted to delete the above after reading them; but that would have been succumbing to flattery! ;D
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Post by IllinoisGal on Oct 31, 2008 6:22:53 GMT -5
Where I attend we practice the gifts of the spirit. We believe them all to be true for today.
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Post by rational on Oct 31, 2008 7:31:45 GMT -5
Dear Friends, Eisegesis is, admittedly, a high-brow jargon word. My apologies. It means to 'read in' a meaning to scripture, where as exegesis is to 'read out' one. In Christ, Theo I think it is a little more than that: eisegesis - the interpretation of a text (as of the bible) by reading into it one's own ideas. Reading in your own ideas could result in the story of the 10 virgins meeting the bridegroom meaning that a man should select the best 5 wives from a group of 10!
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Nov 4, 2008 5:20:52 GMT -5
I wrote, Hope there are threads that have discussed this topic. Most here dont accept the spiritual gifts for today.
Theophila, So in response you are saying I read into the scriptures that gifts are for today?....Nooooooo theo get it right, I know they are for today, I minister in them. I believe strongly that we are in a time of the Word and the spirit working together to bring the church forward in Gods time frame. However, the "spirit of unbelief" that is prevelant in some churches will and is trying to hinder the work of the Lord. It wont win though.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Nov 4, 2008 5:24:07 GMT -5
The church of the Acts - the first christians were prayer warriors, they met continuously for Godly fellowship (not just in a formal way) they prayed openly for each other crying out to God, they prophesied and saw visions, they spoke to God in the prayer language -tongues, they glorified the Lord Jesus as saviour from sins.it was an amazing time of great outpouring... there lives were consumed by God.
Hope this is my kind of church. I love this type of church.
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Post by melissa on Nov 4, 2008 11:45:48 GMT -5
Where is such a church to be found today?
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theophilia
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Post by theophilia on Nov 5, 2008 13:34:45 GMT -5
Dear Shushy,
No, I was saying that saying they are NOT for today is read into the text. I believe all gifts spoken of in scripture are still around.
In Christ,
Theo
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Nov 5, 2008 17:05:20 GMT -5
Theo, thats cool.
Melissa, you need to search to find it. They are out there.
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Post by IllinoisGal on Nov 5, 2008 22:40:45 GMT -5
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Nov 6, 2008 15:59:13 GMT -5
This is an interesting thread; but I find myself coming to it from a slightly different angle. It's possible I'm not the most qualified to comment as I have not personally experienced or witnessed a miraculous event such as healing or casting out demons, but the tenor of the thread therefore; is that I must not be quite spiritual enough, or assured enough in my belief for that to happen.
However; when I read in the gospels of Jesus healing people, it seems to me that the healing is not his primary purpose. His primary purpose was to teach them how to inherit eternal life, not to make their lives on earth better. He performed the miraculous feats to draw attention to himself; and to his power, so that they would listen up to what he had to say. In Mark 2 when Jesus heals the paralytic, the house was so crowded there was no way through the mass of people, so the paralytic was lowered through the roof in front of Jesus. Jesus would have had the attention of everyone in the crowd at that point, but his first words were not to heal the man; but to tell him his sins were forgiven. The subsequent healing was only to testify to who Jesus was; and that he had the power to forgive sin.
In the feeding of the five thousand in Mark 6, v34 says "When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them because they were like sheep without a shepherd". It does not then say because he had compassion on them he healed them, or because he had compassion on them he fed them, it says "So he began teaching them many things. The subsequent miraculous feeding was only to emphasise who Jesus was, and that the people should pay great attention, not to the miracle; but to what he had to say.
Later in Mark 8, the Pharisees asked for a sign from heaven; and Jesus refused. It was not his purpose to keep giving them signs; as they were clearly more taken up with the signs than the message of what he had to say to them
Now I am not saying for one moment that such signs cannot happen today. It is not for me to know the mind of God; and if it pleases him to give signs, then I would not doubt that they come from God. However, for myself, I do not lose sleep over the fact that I have not been party to such signs. Rather, I rejoice in that it is not necessary for me to see such signs in order for me to repent and believe. I rejoice that I have been enabled to believe that Jesus is who he says he is, without the need for such signs.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Nov 6, 2008 18:49:46 GMT -5
We are moving forward to a time in history where great things will happen through the power of God. The kingdom of God is advancing/moving forward regardless of man and his small mindedness. I was privelged to be a part of a church like the one described in Acts, at least the closest thing to that for a period of time. I'll share a bit about it. The leaders were married, and both in the ministry with strong spiritual gifts that complimented each other. The most important thing was that neither of them was insecure in their relationship with God. They trained leaders and that is how we met. The church exploded in one yr from 120 to over 400. The reason for this was that the spiritual gifts were used to help the congregation. The prayer meeting before church was an hour of intercession, requests, reaching out in faith and expectation for what God would do that day, for new converts{always new converts} healing deliverance and seting the captives free. Honestly everyweek, we would see God answer the prayers from the prayer meeting, hed give scriptures and show us what he was going to do. There was an air of excitment and expectation every service, God moved in power and love and acceptence was a primary quality evident in the lives of the leaders. All were excited about God from the kids through to adults. Many people began to move in the calling, it was encouarged. whether street ministry, drug/alchol abuse/, all kinds of people came to this church. The doors were bursting at the seems. The power of God was touching peoples lives. Miracles and healings were normal. It was a church with a strong prophetic flavour. People were encouraged to find their place in the body of Christ. The blessing of God and favour of God was on that church. Sadly a change in leadership caused it to reverse over a number of yrs down to just a few people. The gifts were shut down and other changes were made.
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Nov 7, 2008 4:04:02 GMT -5
That's a both encouraging; and sad story Shushy. I'm happy to accept that God works in different ways with different people. It's because we're all different parts of the body of Christ, we look a bit different, and we act a bit different to each other because we have different needs and different functions; but the same Spirit works in all, so long as we accept Jesus as the door to the kingdom; and know in our hearts that without Him we are nothing.
I feel the exclusive 2x2s make the mistake of thinking they have all the different parts of the body within their group whereas; to me they are all just one part of the body (I mean the ones who are not just following the rules here!), they are, for example, like hands. Some hands have long slim fingers and can play the piano, and some hands are rough and calloused and can lay bricks; but they're all hands.
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Post by melissa on Nov 7, 2008 6:00:35 GMT -5
Now, that is beginning to make sense to me.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Nov 8, 2008 14:57:07 GMT -5
Its true otto. Every local church has many different types of people and all are equally important to God. People in leadership are not more important just more responsible. If you are looking for a church you need to find one that accpets the Holy Spirit. Im tooo fussy after the being a part of the one I described.
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theophilia
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Post by theophilia on Nov 10, 2008 12:48:02 GMT -5
Dear Posters,
There is an innate danger in thinking that the only kinds of gifts that are 'spiritual' are the miraculous ones, or that to experience them, we ourselves must be some kind of super-saint. God doesn't give gifts on the basis of anything; otherwise they wouldn't be gifts, they would be rewards. In the first letter of Paul to the saints in Corinth, he also describes marriage, singleness, the cross, administration and mercy as 'charismatic' gifts (the greek work charismata meaning 'grace gift') and he mentions others including teaching, organizing and giving money using the same word. The church at Corinth played up the importance of more miraculous gifts, and had LOADS of them, but Paul is forced to correct them and remind them that Godly Character and indeed love, are both more important than any particular manifestation of the presence of God. He treats all gifts as important, but particularly emphasis the 'word gifts' of prophecy and teaching, due to their high level of immediate, congregational edification.
The greatest gift is faith -- Paul teaches this in Eph. 2:9-10. And everything Otto has written to us regarding the centrality of the cross is right; however, there is a tendancy amongst people who don't practice these gifts to think that for them to occur, it must be ecstatic and 'pentecostal' -- paul encourages clear, precise words, whilst everyone listens, not babbling on endlessly with no interpreter in tongues -- infact he forbids just that! It's easy to associate Gods gifting with a style of meeting that we are uncomfortable with, but we dispise God if we do not heed Paul when we writes 'earnestly desire spiritual gifts' (1 Cor. 14:1) and 'earnestly desire the higher (or greater/better) gifts especially that you may prophesy' (1 Cor. 12:31). If we will not heed Paul on this simply because we don't want to, we rebel against God and resist Him in our pride -- and then be our discipline ever so severe if we refuse to submit.
Grace and Peace,
Theo
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Nov 10, 2008 16:34:15 GMT -5
Good Man Theo, thanks for keeping us on track! (good man to the Troughtmeister too eh?)
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Nov 10, 2008 18:05:50 GMT -5
Yes, Theo I agree wholeheartedly with all you said. My heart is to see/observe all the body participating and functioning in all the giftings. For too long the church regard hospitality, preaching, giving and faith as all there is. I speak up every opportunity because I know and have witnessed so much more. When I consider Jesus Christ coming back to a glorious church I feel an urgency a longing in my spirit. Its his work not ours.
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Post by toffeecrumble on Nov 22, 2008 1:54:50 GMT -5
This is an interesting thread; but I find myself coming to it from a slightly different angle. .................. However; when I read in the gospels of Jesus healing people, it seems to me that the healing is not his primary purpose. His primary purpose was to teach them how to inherit eternal life, not to make their lives on earth better. Yes, Otto, neverthe less healing people is what Jesus did and in doing so he did make their lives better.
Healing must necessarily be a part of following Jesus as his first disciples/apostles were given this power, were they not?
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 25, 2008 16:29:51 GMT -5
To avoid repeating myself I would ask you to please read my coments today in the thread,'Do workers have special revelation' in the Friends and Workers section where I coment on apostles.
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