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Post by Dueg on Jun 23, 2006 18:46:49 GMT -5
Why do trinitarians stop at three [concepts of God]
There must be at least 5 or 6, right?
Father, Son, Brother, Word, Spirit, Redeemer, .......how many others can we think of??
So then if any name for Jesus, is also a name for God?? As this would certainly be interchangeable with others that are the same.
I don't believe all these names refer to the same entity, even though they may well have equality, each name refers to a certain aspect or form.
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Post by _ on Jun 23, 2006 18:57:03 GMT -5
What do you mean by concepts? I'm finding it hard to understand why it's hard for you to understand the trinity. The bible is quite clear on the subject... I would have you read - www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/trinity_incarnation/trinity.htmlPart of the link says... 1. The Trinity is not belief in three gods. There is only one God.
2. This one God exists as three Persons.
3. The three Persons are not each a part of God, but are each fully God and equally God. Within God's one undivided being there is an unfolding into three interpersonal relationships such that there are three Persons. The distinctions within the Godhead are not distinctions of His essence and neither are they something added on to His essence, but they are the unfolding of God's one, undivided being into three interpersonal relationships such that there are three real Persons.
4. God is not one person who took three consecutive roles. That is the heresy of modalism. The Father did not become the Son and then the Holy Spirit. Instead, there have always been and always will be three distinct persons in the Godhead.
5. The Trinity is not a contradiction because God is not three in the same way that He is one. God is one in essence, three in Person.
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Post by V7N32 on Jun 23, 2006 19:10:11 GMT -5
What do you mean by concepts? I'm finding it hard to understand why it's hard for you to understand the trinity. 2. This one God exists as three Persons. 3. The three Persons are not each a part of God, but are each fully God and equally God. Within God's one undivided being there is an unfolding into three interpersonal relationships such that there are three Persons. The distinctions within the Godhead are not distinctions of His essence and neither are they something added on to His essence, but they are the unfolding of God's one, undivided being into three interpersonal relationships such that there are three real Persons. 4. God is not one person who took three consecutive roles. That is the heresy of modalism. The Father did not become the Son and then the Holy Spirit. Instead, there have always been and always will be three distinct persons in the Godhead. 5. The Trinity is not a contradiction because God is not three in the same way that He is one. God is one in essence, three in Person. [/i][/quote] This whole doctrine is heresy. It was conceived by Constantine, who as yet hadn't accepted truth in His own life, yet, he wanted his empire under one religion, and he did all he could to secularize his concept of christianity, ...YES, I have read alot on this subject, and can only shake my head when some seemingly knowledgable people defend it , as though it was actually some mysterious truth. There is a few things that I can agree with though...God is one, and Jesus and God are united as one, thankful for this part is right.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2006 19:12:48 GMT -5
"This whole doctrine is heresy.
It was conceived by Constantine, who as yet hadn't accepted truth in His own life, yet, he wanted his empire under one religion, and he did all he could to secularize his concept of christianity, ...YES, I have read alot on this subject, and can only shake my head when some seemingly knowledgable people defend it , as though it was actually some mysterious truth."
Documentation please, from your reading on the subject?
Thanks-
karl
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Post by _ on Jun 23, 2006 19:14:30 GMT -5
The prove it to be heresy by using scripture to debunk it... Start by answering these questions... If Jesus is not God, then explain...
1. Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.) 2. Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8? 3. Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1,14)? 4. Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh? 5. Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was , "...calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God," (John 5:18)? 6. What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God. 7. How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)? 8. How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)? 9. How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)? 10. How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)? 11. How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)? 12. How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)? 13. How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)? 14. How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)? 15. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)? 16. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and "God" also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21? 17. How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)? 18. How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)? 19. How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)? 20. Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.) 21. In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58. 22. Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14. 23. Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)? 24. Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)? 25. Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)? www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusquestions.htmAnd here too - www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusisgod.htm
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Post by Dueg on Jun 23, 2006 20:54:46 GMT -5
The prove it to be heresy by using scripture to debunk it... Start by answering these questions... If Jesus is not God, then explain...
1. Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.) 2. Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8? 3. Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1,14)? 4. Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh? 5. Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was , "...calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God," (John 5:18)? 6. What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God. 7. How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)? 8. How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)? 9. How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)? 10. How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)? 11. How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)? 12. How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)? 13. How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)? 14. How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)? 15. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)? 16. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and "God" also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21? 17. How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)? 18. How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)? 19. How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)? 20. Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.) 21. In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58. 22. Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14. 23. Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)? 24. Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)? 25. Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)? www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusquestions.htmAnd here too - www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusisgod.htmSo for some people to imagine 3 persons in one is just reasonable. It isn't for many, though. Even though I don't believe the way it is worded, I always visualized persons as individuals ..and for someone to say that three individuals are not seperate individuals is still quite absurd to me. I guess if we assign new definitions to a large series of our language, then with broader definitions of persons to also mean that 2 persons are the same? and then 3 persons can be the same, also and 4 persons can be the same , also. This is NOT according to the semantics, in our region of the world.
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