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Post by seeking truth on Jun 24, 2006 12:19:53 GMT -5
One day a worker is a worker and the next thing you know they aren't. When you inquire either no one knows or they are very evasive and drift to a different subject. I realize that they are entitled to a private life but when you're in the work you really forfeit that because you are a person of esteem but then if you're a "professing" person you really don't have a private life unless you're sneaking Seems like there is a right to know when/why someone is no longer in the work.
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Post by interested guest on Jun 24, 2006 13:44:21 GMT -5
also notice nothing posted about workers that have recently died
example-Marilyn Kleffman
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Post by nitro on Jun 24, 2006 14:25:04 GMT -5
It's giving these workers a way out. To give a reason every time would not be good.For example a Young man or woman that is in the work decide this kind of life style is not for me. They would be better suited somewhere else. Depression is real too. Health problems. Its a personal decision . I look up to those who leave on good terms and give 1or 25 yrs of their life to help others. For those who are in for the wrong reason God sees to it that their exposed. (Charles Preston). A lot of good ex workers have family's now with children. And have a new place in God's kingdom.Do I profess? meaning go to meetings.No! I just feel that Judging others by who they meet with can also be a stumbling block.
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Post by nitro on Jun 24, 2006 14:31:11 GMT -5
also notice nothing posted about workers that have recently died example-Marilyn Kleffman Here read it for yourself. MARILYN RUTH KLEFFMAN DES MOINES published on June 16, 2006 MARILYN RUTH KLEFFMAN Des Moines Marilyn Ruth Kleffman, 65, passed away on Wednesday, June 14, at Mercy Hospice Johnston. Funeral service will be held, 11 a.m., Saturday, June 17, at Northview School 1010 NW Prairie Ridge Drive Ankeny, Iowa, 50023. She was born on July 28, 1940 in Creston, Iowa, to Arthur and Neva (Goodlaxson) Kleffman. She graduated from Creston High School in 1958, and attended Southwestern Community College in Creston for two years. In January 1965 she entered the ministry and served in Iowa until October 1972 when she went to Germany. She continued her ministry there till February 2005, when she was diagnosed with cancer. She returned to the USA in March, 2005. Marilyn was preceded in death by her parents. She is survived by one brother, Don and wife Virginia of Sunnyvale, California and their three children, Sandra, Debbie Lee (Rich), Tim (Debbie) and two children, Natalie and Kevin all of California. She is also survived by her sister, LaVerna, who labors in Germany; one aunt, Esther Goodlaxson, and several cousins and other relatives. Marilyn is also fondly remembered by many co-workers and friends, here and in Germany. Visitation will be held two hours prior to the service from 9 to 11 a.m. Burial will be 3:30 p.m., Saturday in Graceland Cemetery 1844 S. Cherry Street Creston, Iowa 50801. Memorials may be given to the family or mailed in her name to McLaren's Chapel - 801 19th Street West Des Moines, IA 50265.
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Post by seeking truth on Jun 24, 2006 16:39:10 GMT -5
Nitro - I understand what you're saying but when someone you really like drops out of sight it would be nice to know that they're all right. For some reason the "grapevine" dies regarding workers who go missing.
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Post by source on Jun 24, 2006 17:09:52 GMT -5
also notice nothing posted about workers that have recently died example-Marilyn Kleffman Here read it for yourself. MARILYN RUTH KLEFFMAN DES MOINES published on June 16, 2006 MARILYN RUTH KLEFFMAN Des Moines Marilyn Ruth Kleffman, 65, passed away on Wednesday, June 14, at Mercy Hospice Johnston. Funeral service will be held, 11 a.m., Saturday, June 17, at Northview School 1010 NW Prairie Ridge Drive Ankeny, Iowa, 50023. She was born on July 28, 1940 in Creston, Iowa, to Arthur and Neva (Goodlaxson) Kleffman. She graduated from Creston High School in 1958, and attended Southwestern Community College in Creston for two years. In January 1965 she entered the ministry and served in Iowa until October 1972 when she went to Germany. She continued her ministry there till February 2005, when she was diagnosed with cancer. She returned to the USA in March, 2005. Marilyn was preceded in death by her parents. She is survived by one brother, Don and wife Virginia of Sunnyvale, California and their three children, Sandra, Debbie Lee (Rich), Tim (Debbie) and two children, Natalie and Kevin all of California. She is also survived by her sister, LaVerna, who labors in Germany; one aunt, Esther Goodlaxson, and several cousins and other relatives. Marilyn is also fondly remembered by many co-workers and friends, here and in Germany. Visitation will be held two hours prior to the service from 9 to 11 a.m. Burial will be 3:30 p.m., Saturday in Graceland Cemetery 1844 S. Cherry Street Creston, Iowa 50801. Memorials may be given to the family or mailed in her name to McLaren's Chapel - 801 19th Street West Des Moines, IA 50265. nitro failed to point out that this was from the Truth Gazette, a monthly publication put out by the two by two's
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Post by nitro on Jun 24, 2006 17:34:35 GMT -5
No I CALLED 1800-WOR-KERS AND HAD THEM FAX A COPY OF THIS TO ME.
The one in charge of all this was out so Leslie White did it himself. He almost missed his private Jet to his next convention. But being so kind he took the time so someone wouldn't feel like information was not getting out. He did mention that this was also in the Des Moines register obituary's all public records.
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Post by a believer on Jun 24, 2006 17:58:55 GMT -5
Everything is a secret, that is why Doug Parker called his book The Secret Sect. Interesting though is that they even hide things from those inside their group.
Also interesting that it takes one to leave often before they find out that the group was started by a man around the turn of the century and not Jesus 2000 years ago.. I found out more about the truth about the group when I left than when I was in.
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Post by nitro on Jun 24, 2006 18:20:00 GMT -5
Most have !
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Justification is a normative activity One way of explaining the theory of justification is to say: A justified belief is one which we are within our rights in holding. By this is meant, not political rights, or moral rights, but "intellectual" rights.
In some way each of us is responsible for what we believe. We don't just go off and believe anything. We each have an intellectual responsibility or obligation, to believe what is true and to avoid believing what is false. Being intellectually responsible involves being within one's intellectual rights in believing something; in such cases one is justified in one's belief.
Thus, justification is a normative notion. That means that it has to do with norms, rights, responsibilities, obligations, and so forth. The standard definition is that a concept is normative iff it is a concept regarding or depending on the norms, or obligations and permissions (very broadly construed), involved in human conduct. It is generally accepted that the concept of justification is normative, because it is defined as a concept regarding the norms of belief.
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Post by pink cats on Jun 24, 2006 18:30:54 GMT -5
Nitro, That is the biggest jumble of nonsence I have read in a very long time. Your guest, a believer, is exactly right. I was an elders daughter, with meeting and workers in our home all of my life, (53 years). I never heard any thing of Irvin, Cooney, Where workers or friends go when they disappear... Until I finally left the "Truth" for good. The CIA could learn from these folks how to keep secrets, at least from friends and family.
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Post by nitro on Jun 24, 2006 19:06:08 GMT -5
Here Kitty kitty Sorry to get your tail fluffed up. But I too was in "TRUTH FOR 23 yrs and never saw any money exchange hands.Many things where hid from me. I don't know what you read to get you so hissy... But all I said basically was In some way each of us is responsible for what we believe. We don't just go off and believe anything. We each have an intellectual responsibility or obligation, to believe what is true and to avoid believing what is false. Find Jesus not a religion and you can't go wrong. Reading this book wont get you any closer to God.In fact in may make you bitter. Not only that it takes time away from reading the word of God. By the way what part to you was full of bolony.
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Post by a believer on Jun 24, 2006 19:45:54 GMT -5
It is called brainwashing Nitro. There is a difference from people growing up in the group who are brain washed from birth and those come in from the outside. Many people are honest and have not had experience with people who lie, so that is often why they believe the workers when they are told that this group was not started by any man. We are responsible when we have alternative information and make a CHOICE to stay or leave. As children we had no choice as we did not have access to other information as we believed what we were told. We have since left when we had a choice....personal responsibility is when we have a choice. What is money changing hands to do with what we are saying. As children we did not go off and believe it, we were brought up in it- a difference.. How does reading a book which tells us the truth going to make us bitter... I think you mean wiser not bitter.. So you only ever read the Bible, you don't read books, newspaper, etc. The workers did not want people to read books, that also was a means of taking away a person's free choice. Don't get outside information that might expose what you believe.
Child en do not have a free choice..but when they get older they often make the choice to leave meetings.
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Post by nitro on Jun 24, 2006 20:46:28 GMT -5
Go ahead read the book you my turn into a Loyd clone!stuck in a muddy mess of hate for even those who may be going to meeting and be right with God. I choose not to. For fear of Judging. And oh I too was born into This and indoctrinated to the fullest. You said secrets I always thought MONEY was one of the biggest secrets in "TRUTH".
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Post by observation on Jun 24, 2006 20:53:15 GMT -5
Go ahead read the book you my turn into a Loyd clone!stuck in a muddy mess of hate for even those who may be going to meeting and be right with God. I choose not to. For fear of Judging. And oh I too was born into This and indoctrinated to the fullest. You said secrets I always thought MONEY was one of the biggest secrets in "TRUTH". just an observation, but...........it might be a bit late, nitro. You write like him, sound like him and definitely have a major hate on.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 24, 2006 21:00:05 GMT -5
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Post by nitro on Jun 24, 2006 21:58:37 GMT -5
[ just an observation, but...........it might be a bit late, nitro. You write like him, sound like him and definitely have a major hate on. Lets see ------Just an observation but....It might be to late nitro. You write like him,sound like him? HOW? And definitely have a major "hate on".hate on. www.joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp
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Post by nitro on Jun 24, 2006 22:13:27 GMT -5
Cherie I have not read your entire web site. What I did gleam out of it was from the very beginning trouble was at hand. Division. I have also done research on other religions and find similar trouble in all. This is common with man made religions. Always changing. A little tweak here and patch to hide the faults. You have a great site and I go to it quite a bit for information. I also emailed you once awhile back did you ever get it? No I have not read any of these mentioned books!
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 24, 2006 22:28:34 GMT -5
I don't recall getting an email from you--what was the subject of your post and it might trigger my memory! You can PM me if you like--now that I've got the hang of PM'ing!
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Bonnie
Senior Member
Posts: 212
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Post by Bonnie on Jun 24, 2006 23:02:30 GMT -5
I was presently surprised when I read the secret sect that it was just the history of the group. I was expecting some bias comments, but truly is just a historical book in my view.
Can't see how the book makes someone bitter. It is information. Now the fact that the information was not given would cause some angst, but there isn't one person to blame in this large group of people. Personally I don't view it as a big conspiracy at least not in the last 20 years.
I know of at least five people who knew nothing of the begining who have been going to or professing their whole life. So of course if they were telling someone about their church they would also not be honest with their answer but they would not know this.
Personally I don't like to be the one to tell someone who doesn't know, and I don't go out of my way to tell them, but if they start asking me how come I don't go anymore etc, I won't lie to them I will be honest.
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Post by Pam on Jun 25, 2006 0:20:32 GMT -5
Nitro, You sound so much like my oldest brother. So angry in his defense of the old way that he has no room in his heart for love of the Way and family who just love to serve the dear Lord. The Secret Sect, was very freeing. It helped me to see where all of the isolationism and fear and hopelessness and self righteousness came from. For the first time I could say in all honesty, that we should not look at the people, but the "way" is the real cause for all the pain. It is based on the teachings, indeed rantings of an angry, pitiful man, not our Lord and Father. It hurt to find out that Uncle Eldon, Uncle Tharold, Uncle Willie and Sydney and Dick, had known and lied. They may have met Jesus, but many of them stood next to William Irvine and Edward Cooney in photos. Hard to believe they didn't know about him and the nonsense he spewed. I just feel sad for the pain this has all cost to so many dear people. You say we have a choice... lessons taught from infancy run deep.
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Post by jxr on Jun 25, 2006 6:02:43 GMT -5
It's giving these workers a way out. To give a reason every time would not be good.For example a Young man or woman that is in the work decide this kind of life style is not for me. They would be better suited somewhere else. Depression is real too. Health problems. Its a personal decision . I look up to those who leave on good terms and give 1or 25 yrs of their life to help others. For those who are in for the wrong reason God sees to it that their exposed. (Charles Preston). A lot of good ex workers have family's now with children. And have a new place in God's kingdom.Do I profess? meaning go to meetings.No! I just feel that Judging others by who they meet with can also be a stumbling block. Why should a worker have any right to privacy over the reason for leaving, given that their office is a public one? If the true reason for leaving was announced in some dignified manner, perhaps the stigma would be lessened and it would encourage the faithful to provide post-work support to the individual. I have witnessed an occasion where a new worker, who was clearly too nervous to be up to the task, and after half a year (a worker year, that is) packed it in. That poor soul has been banished to return to live with her parents, rather than being applauded and supported for her valiant attempt. Misconduct, however, should be recognised and dealt with appropriately.
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Post by Bert on Jun 25, 2006 8:35:07 GMT -5
Pam, you wrote "The Secret Sect, was very freeing." Agreed, but only if you want a way out. In every age a way out has been provided, just read the stories of those who raised up the truth in the bible.
You said "It is based on the teachings, indeed rantings of an angry, pitiful man, not our Lord and Father." Any psychologist or astute religious observer should be able to tell you that an organisation bears a resemblance to its founder, ie Scientology and Islam. I don't see angry and pitiful people in my faith. Sorry.
You spoke of workers who "had known and lied." No, Pam, they did not lie. Period. If there is no truth in the earth for ten thousand years there is still a truth which is from the beginning. And everyone who is pressed into it understands that this is something very different from all the man-made religions of this present evil world.
You said "the pain this has all cost to so many dear people." No. Period. I know many satisfied and fullfilled people. I know a lot of bitter people outside.
Have a nice day. Bert
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bandwithconservation
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Post by bandwithconservation on Jun 25, 2006 9:55:29 GMT -5
So why don't you save yourself a lot of time and just call Pam a liar?
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Post by nitro on Jun 25, 2006 10:20:44 GMT -5
quote author=jxr board=general thread=1151169593 post=1151233363] quote] Why should a worker have any right to privacy over the reason for leaving, given that their office is a public one? . That poor soul has been banished to return to live with her parents, rather than being applauded and supported for her valiant attempt. Misconduct, however, should be recognized and dealt with appropriately. 1. This is my opinion that being in this way is always gives you a feeling of not being good enough. When one leaves the work they feel not only have they let them selfs down but those who have been in their fields and who have professed under them.Most who leave are young and never see they inside of the decision making on matters concerning the "RULES". As for those who have done people wrong yes let the people know what happened and it will not be tolerated. This is not with the subject of the thread but I will address. 2. I too feel their should be money or a program set up for those leaving the work to get them established into the real working world. And not let out to defend for themselves!
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Post by Bunch of Bull on Jun 25, 2006 10:34:19 GMT -5
Bert writes:
Pam, you wrote "The Secret Sect, was very freeing." Agreed, but only if you want a way out. In every age a way out has been provided, just read the stories of those who raised up the truth in the bible.
This is reaching at straws. No in fact finding out the origin is of man and there was no 2x2 ministers before WI would be pause for reflection as to if the minsitry they follow is false. When the light shines you see more.
Bert said: You said "It is based on the teachings, indeed rantings of an angry, pitiful man, not our Lord and Father." Any psychologist or astute religious observer should be able to tell you that an organisation bears a resemblance to its founder, ie Scientology and Islam. I don't see angry and pitiful people in my faith. Sorry.
No the issue is not that the angry men who started the ministry. The ministry is a result of angry men creating a false doctrine. Alpha Revelation-Alpha Revelation-Alpha Revelation- Alpha Revelation... False false false. The 2x2 have all the false custom of the ALPHA REVELATION
Bert Said: You spoke of workers who "had known and lied." No, Pam, they did not lie. Period. If there is no truth in the earth for ten thousand years there is still a truth which is from the beginning. And everyone who is pressed into it understands that this is something very different from all the man-made religions of this present evil world.
Yes they did and still lie if they seek to keep the true origins of the 2x2 secret. The format is not fully Christ but the ALPHA REVELATION which is false. As NB SAYS: Let the Worker tell the whole history and let the congregation decide. Until that happens they are lying.
Bert Said: You said "the pain this has all cost to so many dear people." No. Period. I know many satisfied and fullfilled people. I know a lot of bitter people outside.
And you can see by the many who are posting on this forum that there are many who have suffered pain from the continued customs of the hidden false doctrine of the ALPHA REVELATION. I also find it very revealing to note many elders and professing for their who life are now leaving as a result of the False Doctrine of EXCLUSIVISM perpetuated by the LIE and customs of the ALPHA REVELATION created.
I hope you can have a nice day when you knowingly continue to perpetuate the false doctrine of the ALPHA REVELATION of WI.
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Post by Origins on Jun 25, 2006 10:57:49 GMT -5
Why is it so important to know an origin? All religions have origins that can be traced back to some person, or in some cases not, but the point of religion is not who started it but the message. I don't think that the workers teach anything more detrimental then a Catholic priest. And remember, they are all just people interpreting the Bible based on their experience. That is why each and every persons true relationship with God is personal. No other person can truly say what is in somebody else's head or judge their beliefs. If we pick apart all religions, what will we be left with?
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Post by ilylo on Jun 25, 2006 11:00:53 GMT -5
Why is it so important to know an origin? All religions have origins that can be traced back to some person, or in some cases not, but the point of religion is not who started it but the message. I don't think that the workers teach anything more detrimental then a Catholic priest. And remember, they are all just people interpreting the Bible based on their experience. That is why each and every persons true relationship with God is personal. No other person can truly say what is in somebody else's head or judge their beliefs. If we pick apart all religions, what will we be left with? This line of thinking has been used many times to rationalize the origin of 2x2ism (aka 'the Irvinites'). And many times the answer is that the origin becomes important when adherents to the group do not tell the truth regarding the origin. Had the truth been told from the outset, we would not be having this conversation and this message board probably would not exist.
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its all about damage control
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Post by its all about damage control on Jun 25, 2006 15:57:39 GMT -5
It's all about damage control - talk about him and he'll tell on them OR don't talk about him so he hopefully won't retaliate
Most dangerous thing in Truth is a ex-worker that wants revenge for the way he's been treated
Read this board - you can see it here
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