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Post by IllinoisGal on Jun 29, 2008 8:41:27 GMT -5
Do you still believe in spanking?
I was on the parking lot of wal mart and heard a small boy screaming across the parking lot. He was rolling on the grass throwing a horrible temper tantrum, yelling at his Father, making demands. It was a site to see !!!
The thing that struck me was the Father's reaction. He just acted very docile, tried to appease the child, reason with him,and basically let the kid act out and control the situation. Now mine would have gotten there little behind tanned for those actions.
Are many Parents today afraid of their kids?? If that was my father or mother they would have tore my backside up no Qs asked. I wouldnt have dare attempted to act that way.
I recently talked to a parent in my church and was astounded at their liberal views of corporal punishment. i think they might have read too many Doc. spock books??
I'm not advocating abuse or always whippin' on a kid for every little thing, I'm mostly talking about Kids who have been allowed to take over the household by way of manipulation
What are your thoughts on this? Do the 2x2s spank or take a different approach in dealing with there children? Does the fellowship encourage one form of discipline over another?
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Post by rational on Jun 29, 2008 9:16:22 GMT -5
Judging from what I have seen while at gatherings where there were predominantly professing families, I would say that corporal punishment is still the rule.Actually, my children were shocked to witness the whole situation. First that the children were so disrespectful of their parents and second with the caviler manner in how the children were punished. I think it is a situation where they practice what they know, what they have been raised with. This is an age old debate. One person's spanking is another's beating. In any case it is an adult hitting a child to cause enough discomfort to modify their behavior. As far as temper tantrums - while tough to deal with at the time, I found that explaining the situation to the child ("I know you are angry that you can't have that toy but this behavior is unacceptable and we are not going to get the toy.")and giving no feedback, except to ensure safety, deprived the children of the what they were looking for and once that was clear - what was the point? Like all organisms, children will not continue a behavior that does not produce the result(s) they are looking for. Appeasing or spanking both provide attention. And then there is the confirmation that the parents have been upset by the behavior. Children have tantrums in public places for a reason - maximum effect. www.heptune.com/tantrum.htmlkidshealth.org/parent/emotions/behavior/tantrums.htmlwww.nasponline.org/resources/behavior/tantrums_ho.aspxThe top three sites that showed up with the terms: 'how to deal with temper tantrums' All suggest something along the lines of: "Spanking or yelling at the child will make the tantrum worse." Do you still believe in spanking? I was on the parking lot of wal mart and heard a small boy screaming across the parking lot. He was rolling on the grass throwing a horrible temper tantrum, yelling at his Father, making demands. It was a site to see !!! The thing that struck me was the Father's reaction. He just acted very docile, tried to appease the child, reason with him,and basically let the kid act out and control the situation. Now mine would have gotten there little behind tanned for those actions. Are many Parents today afraid of their kids?? If that was my father or mother they would have tore my backside up no Qs asked. I wouldnt have dare attempted to act that way. I recently talked to a parent in my church and was astounded at their liberal views of corporal punishment. i think they might have read too many Doc. spock books?? I'm not advocating abuse or always whippin' on a kid for every little thing, I'm mostly talking about Kids who have been allowed to take over the household by way of manipulation What are your thoughts on this? Do the 2x2s spank or take a different approach in dealing with there children? Does the fellowship encourage one form of discipline over another?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2008 10:09:03 GMT -5
Personally, I reject the use of inflicting physical or emotional pain or threats of pain on children as a means of discipline and training. It's wrong and does much more harm than good.
At the same time, I am a big believer in disciplining and training children. To remove pain infliction as one of the tools means that this job requires a lot of effort, time and acquired skill by parents, yet at the same time this is not particularly complicated..... any parent can do it if they are committed to it.
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Post by IllinoisGal on Jun 29, 2008 15:52:19 GMT -5
I think alot of dealing with children and discipline is consistency.
If you tell a child " If you do that one more time Im gonna (whatever)" then if they do it and you dont follow through of course they arent gonna trust in your word. You have to follow through with what you tel them you are going to do .
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Post by gloryintruth on Jun 29, 2008 17:48:07 GMT -5
I believe in corporal punishment, as do 99% of teachers who work in lower-class, school areas.
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Post by rational on Jun 29, 2008 18:26:26 GMT -5
I believe in corporal punishment, as do 99% of teachers who work in lower-class, school areas. Perhaps in your area. As a teacher of both emotionally disturbed adolescents and inner city public school students this was not the case. I never understood why anyone would think that controlling people through the use of pain was the ethical and moral thing to do. It didn't work in the past, it doesn't work as well as other types of behavior modification on any salient organisms, and there is no reason to think it will suddenly start to work in the future. But then, GIT, we all know exactly how you view your students so there is no wonder that is the solution you see to control them. Certainly you can make them fear you but you have to earn their respect. And when you consider them as "...my acne-riddled, hormone-soaked, over-sexed, under-performing eighth formers..." the prospect of gaining their respect is slim.
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Post by rational on Jun 29, 2008 18:31:04 GMT -5
I think alot of dealing with children and discipline is consistency. If you tell a child " If you do that one more time Im gonna (whatever)" then if they do it and you dont follow through of course they arent gonna trust in your word. You have to follow through with what you tel them you are going to do . I agree with the consistency 100%. When you are 2.5 and have little control over your environment sometimes a surprise in what you had expected and what happens is enough to send you over the edge. And as children are wont to do, they observe everything and know much better than the parents just what buttons to push and when to push them to get the maximum effect!
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Post by ronhall on Jun 29, 2008 22:49:59 GMT -5
At the convention I attended last summer I was amazed at the good behavior of the young ones.
I was also amazed at the kindness of the young parents in effectively dealing with the normal minor outbreaks.
Don't know if the young parents are reading any certain parenting book. I doubt it. But they are certainly serious about child rearing.
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Claire
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Post by Claire on Jun 30, 2008 2:09:26 GMT -5
Do you still believe in spanking? No. do you mean spanking them after they've taken over the household or spanking to stop them taking it over? we choose other ways in our household. Do the 2x2s spank? Do Methodists spank? Do Catholics spank? I have heard workers speak from the platform, yes, but for me it was more "middle-aged person with no children"-talk rather than 2x2-talk. Could've heard it anywhere where there were [wo]men in suits with that Spare The Rod And Spoil The Child approach to life. /c
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Post by justamom on Jun 30, 2008 13:55:48 GMT -5
I believe in corporal punishment, as do 99% of teachers who work in lower-class, school areas. I work in a lower-class school area and I don't belive in corporal punishment... never have and never will. I have had students come through my classroom who are very good at throwing tantrums. I have one little boy who gets his way at home by throwing tantrums, so he thought that was what he needed to do at school to get his needs met. After being in my class for a while and realizing that throwing his tantrums wasn't going to get him the results he wanted he stopped throwing them. Would he still get upset and pout.. sure... but we didn't have anymore tantrums. One also needs to remember that if and when a child out in public is throwing a tantrum you as the onlooker has no idea if that child has an illness that they can't control and it shows itself as tantrums. I have a son who is bi-polar.. when he was younger he would go into rages when we went to town because he couldn't handle all the people and the noises of the shoppers... it took me a while to realize this. I have worked with kids who are autistic and they tend to go into rages and tantrums when they can't get the adult to understand what they want. So please the next time you see a child throwing a trantrum don't just assume that it is because that child is a spoiled brat as you have no idea what that child or the parents are going through.
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Post by spiderman on Jun 30, 2008 15:37:42 GMT -5
I think if I tried to spank my youngest son, I might get my butt kicked, (by his wife!) ;D I think Mrs. Spiderman wants to spank me, but I definitely don't believe in that!
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Post by gloryintruth on Jun 30, 2008 17:45:25 GMT -5
You are mischaracterising corporal discipline. In a sense, your bias has precluded your even considering that there might actually be some benefit in corporal discipline. I think, as with most things, a balance is required. I would not like to see us return to the old days of belting the hell out of kids for every little thing - there is a place for counselling, restorative justice etc. - but then again, I also believe there is a place for the cane.
The cane, far from being a barbaric instrument, is a civilising force. It induces discomfort quickly and effectively, sufficient to modify behaviour. On the other hand, detentions induce mental discomfort and strike me as being far more barbaric; psychological in nature, and requiring far more time.
You are pontificating your opinion. That is fine. However, there was precious little research ever conducted into corporal discipline. Moreover, no intelligent person could possibly deny that if you ever take a passing moment to talk to older folks who can remember the paradigm of corporal discipline, the overwhelming majority will tell you it DID work. To blatantly deny this is simply wilful ignorance.
You have no possible way to know how I view my students.
Fear IS the basis for respect. This is a Christian teaching. The trembling at the sacred; the quaking before the presence of God; the terror of the voice proceding from the altar! Or secularly, even, the fear of a speeding ticket if you are disrespectful to a police-officer. I'm sorry - I don't buy into the Jungian concept that all fear is bad, or that some "negative" emotions ought to be banished from our repertoire as damaging.
You're efforts at long-range diagnosis, prediction and omniscience notwithstanding, you are totally wrong.
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Post by Old Professing Guy on Jun 30, 2008 19:25:25 GMT -5
Every child has a button that parents can push to make them straighten up and pay attention. Some, a stern look. Some, time out. Some, a logical discussion. And some, a smack on the butt.
The smack on the butt is correct and appropriate when used correctly and appropriately. If you are one of those parents who can't smack your kid on the but without loosing it and abusing them then you need your butt smacked. If you are one of those parents who thinks you should never smack the kid on the butt and you let him throw a fit and manipulate you as I have seen many do, you need yours smacked too.
Anti-spankers are like militant vegetarians. Every once in a while you see one who has well behaved kids and looks healthy. But more than not, they have screamers and look a little hollow eyed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2008 19:47:59 GMT -5
There's some faulty logic here old fella. You make the assumptive leap that parents who don't spank and have screamers it's because they don't believe in spanking. Wrong, it is mostly due to the fact that they don't believe in discipline.
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Post by Old Professing Guy on Jun 30, 2008 19:57:33 GMT -5
There's some faulty logic here old fella. You make the assumptive leap that parents who don't spank and have screamers it's because they don't believe in spanking. Wrong, it is mostly due to the fact that they don't believe in discipline. You could have something there. My parents were more into discipline than spanking. Those thumb screws made a lasting impression. No, I agree with you. Like I said, different kids have different buttons. As long as you use the one that works. I have found that the logical discussion button works very well but there have been a few times that the butt smack had to proceed the logic. Is it OK if I say the anti-disciplinarians are like militant vegetarians?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2008 20:23:48 GMT -5
There's some faulty logic here old fella. You make the assumptive leap that parents who don't spank and have screamers it's because they don't believe in spanking. Wrong, it is mostly due to the fact that they don't believe in discipline. You could have something there. My parents were more into discipline than spanking. Those thumb screws made a lasting impression. No, I agree with you. Like I said, different kids have different buttons. As long as you use the one that works. I have found that the logical discussion button works very well but there have been a few times that the butt smack had to proceed the logic. Is it OK if I say the anti-disciplinarians are like militant vegetarians? Yes, I think we are on the same page here. Still, from my own experience as a child, I'm convinced that the few spankings I got didn't do me any good. It didn't make me a better person at all. In fact, it made me a worse person as it taught me to get better at not getting caught. Thank goodness I didn't get many, I would have become a thoroughly deceptive person. I'm even more thankful that my parents never used emotional pressure/abuse on me to modify behaviour. I think that would have been far more damaging than spankings. A pain in the butt disappears quickly, an emotional wound can last a lifetime. It didn't take me long as a parent to decide that spanking was wrong. After adminstering a few on the first, I knew that there had to be a better way, and there was.
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Post by Old Professing Guy on Jun 30, 2008 21:37:40 GMT -5
I overheard an old grandmother tell her misbehaving granddaughter (about 5) "I'm gonna lock you in the closet when we get home if you don't straighten up." I hope she was not serious, but at any rate I thought it was a horrible thing to tell a kid. I think she would have been better off just smacking her on the butt. But that's just my opinion.
I wasn't a kid that got that many spankings, but they worked when I had them coming and lack of attention to the authority figure was my problem. However, thinking back, the only time a spanking did me any good was when I already had respect for the spanker. At home, I had a high degree of respect for my parents so it worked well. At school, it was a mixed bag, so sometimes it worked and some did not. When I got older, I refused to take a spanking from anyone I didn't have respect for but I was a strong headed kid so it worked for me. If I would have let someone (teacher/school authority) spank me that I didn't have respect for I don't think that would have turned out well at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2008 21:52:47 GMT -5
I overheard an old grandmother tell her misbehaving granddaughter (about 5) "I'm gonna lock you in the closet when we get home if you don't straighten up." I hope she was not serious, but at any rate I thought it was a horrible thing to tell a kid. I think she would have been better off just smacking her on the butt. But that's just my opinion. I wasn't a kid that got that many spankings, but they worked when I had them coming and lack of attention to the authority figure was my problem. However, thinking back, the only time a spanking did me any good was when I already had respect for the spanker. At home, I had a high degree of respect for my parents so it worked well. At school, it was a mixed bag, so sometimes it worked and some did not. When I got older, I refused to take a spanking from anyone I didn't have respect for but I was a strong headed kid so it worked for me. If I would have let someone (teacher/school authority) spank me that I didn't have respect for I don't think that would have turned out well at all. I agree, the closet threat was probably worse than a smack, and far worse if she actually put the kid in the closet. It's all horrific ideas to me. Sounds like you had more than your fair share of spankings, especially when you were picking and choosing your spanker. I'll bet you have some rousing tales of misadventure to tell!
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Post by rational on Jun 30, 2008 22:26:08 GMT -5
You are mischaracterising corporal discipline. I said it caused pain in an effort to modify behavior. How is that in any way in error? Oh there is a benefit. Usually to the one administering the punishment. It is a quick fix that has no lasting positive outcome. It teaches fear and the idea that might makes right. If it actually had some longterm effect in promoting positive behavior you might have an argument. The negative effects far outweigh the positive ones. I don't ever recall saying detentions were a better solution. Or, for that matter, a solution at all. That is, my friend, a classic strawman argument! Perhaps little that you have read. A quick google search of "corporal punishment research" will reveal a number of research papers, from both sides of the argument. And the same was said of slavery. Here is how well it worked: Adult disorder Never spanked Rarely spanked Sometimes/often spanked Anxiety 16.3% 18.8% 21.3% Major depression 4.6% 4.8% 6.9% Alcohol abuse or addiction 5.8% 10.2% 13.2% More than one disorder 7.5% 12.6% 16.7% From just one of a plethora of research done on corporal punishment. Dr. Harriet McMillan of McMaster UniversityThe results were published in the Canadian Medical Journal for 1995-OCT. 4 They reported that "there appears to be a linear association between the frequency of slapping and spanking during childhood and a lifetime prevalence of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems." As I said, it works for the punisher. Actually there is. You posted it yourself. Here is your view of them: "......my acne-riddled, hormone-soaked, over-sexed, under-performing eighth formers...". I believe you are in serious error here. You cannot force anyone to respect you any more than you can force someone to love you. You earn respect by giving respect. This is not respect. This is fear. You get speeding tickets because you are driving to fast. I do not respect nor disrespect someone because they are empowered to uphold the law. As Erich Fromm noted "To respect a person is not possible without knowing him; care and responsibility would be blind if they were not guided by knowledge."I have no problem with negative emotions. I am sensing a few negative emotions when I consider that you might be the role model for developing school children. Although I would guess this is not the case. Are you saying your students respect you? Odd you would refer to them in such terms.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Jun 30, 2008 22:35:57 GMT -5
It seems kinda odd that there are a dozen posts or so here and not one mention of what the Bible says of disciplining kids. . . .shouldn't our Bibles be our guide for the baseline of discipline and not our own view or some modernistic trend in the latest, greatest magic on how to keep the brats in line?? . . .I think yes!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2008 22:40:02 GMT -5
Interesting McMaster U study rational. While I don't doubt that the findings are fairly accurate, there will be a bigger picture here than just the spanking being the direct cause of the emotional disorders.
In a home where there is a lot of spanking, there will often be a plethora of dysfunctions and meanness occurring. There will be a severe shortage of tenderness and loving (unless one characterizes beating a child as a demonstration of love). In those kinds of families, children are demeaned and stripped of dignity and self worth. In the old days, they called it "breaking their will".
These abuses seem to be self perpetuating from one generation to the next, with the new adult and his/her newfound power wielding it over the next generation, not unlike the perpetuation of CSA.
Thank goodness the vicious cycle is being broken these days as we learn of their devastating effects. Like CSA where the old idea was to dismiss it and say "oh they'll get over it", we are now realizing that they don't "get over it" so easily and it often debilitates a person for a whole lifetime.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Jun 30, 2008 22:42:38 GMT -5
And I guess I forgot to answer the question .. . so .. absolutely, positively YES to corporal punishment!! Whack them little buggers upside their melons and tell'em there's more where that came from!!
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Post by Old Professing Guy on Jun 30, 2008 22:53:26 GMT -5
It seems kinda odd that there are a dozen posts or so here and not one mention of what the Bible says of disciplining kids. . . .shouldn't our Bibles be our guide for the baseline of discipline and not our own view or some modernistic trend in the latest, greatest magic on how to keep the brats in line?? . . .I think yes! There you go derailing the conversation and talking about what the bible says. ;D Ok, I'll bite. Proverbs 13 1 A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke. 24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Colossians 3:20 20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. 21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. I read - The bible tells the kids to hear and obey. Tells fathers to smack their buts but don't provoke them to anger. What I said about the child respecting the punishment he receives from someone who he respects stands in this context as well.
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Post by Old Professing Guy on Jun 30, 2008 23:07:34 GMT -5
I also agree with Clearday. In a home where there is a lot of spanking, there will often be a plethora of dysfunctions and meanness occurring. My thought is, if there is a lot of spanking going on there is something going wrong. If there is a need for a lot of spanking, the spanking is obviously not working. Somebody once said, "The smack on the butt is correct and appropriate when used correctly and appropriately. If you are one of those parents who can't smack your kid on the but without loosing it and abusing them then you need your butt smacked." There was a lot of intelligence behind that statement. The smack on the butt needs to be proceeded and followed with lots of love, kindness and logical discussion.
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Post by rational on Jun 30, 2008 23:23:32 GMT -5
It seems kinda odd that there are a dozen posts or so here and not one mention of what the Bible says of disciplining kids. . . .shouldn't our Bibles be our guide for the baseline of discipline and not our own view or some modernistic trend in the latest, greatest magic on how to keep the brats in line?? . . .I think yes! The bible and family values? Sell your daughter as a maid servant? Buy a brother as a slave. But time the purchase carefully because he walks free in the Jubilee Year. Own slaves? Beat you slaves all you want as long as they can rise after 2 days. As far as children go: Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. There you have it. Kill them. That will teach them respect!
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Jun 30, 2008 23:25:16 GMT -5
I also agree with Clearday. In a home where there is a lot of spanking, there will often be a plethora of dysfunctions and meanness occurring. My thought is, if there is a lot of spanking going on there is something going wrong. If there is a need for a lot of spanking, the spanking is obviously not working. Somebody once said, "The smack on the butt is correct and appropriate when used correctly and appropriately. If you are one of those parents who can't smack your kid on the but without loosing it and abusing them then you need your butt smacked." There was a lot of intelligence behind that statement. The smack on the butt needs to be proceeded and followed with lots of love, kindness and logical discussion.When mom used to say, "This is gonna hurt me a lot worse than it's gonna hurt you!". . I guess that's what your meaning here .. . . .. right??? ? ? ? ?
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Jun 30, 2008 23:30:22 GMT -5
It seems kinda odd that there are a dozen posts or so here and not one mention of what the Bible says of disciplining kids. . . .shouldn't our Bibles be our guide for the baseline of discipline and not our own view or some modernistic trend in the latest, greatest magic on how to keep the brats in line?? . . .I think yes! T he bible and family values? Sell your daughter as a maid servant? Buy a brother as a slave. But time the purchase carefully because he walks free in the Jubilee Year. Own slaves? Beat you slaves all you want as long as they can rise after 2 days.
As far as children go:
Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
There you have it. Kill them.
That will teach them respect![/quote..well .. . after the first 2 or 3 are stacked up outside the city gates I'm sure the rest will start to put some attention towards what ol' dad was saying! ps...how do you feel about discarding scripture your uncomfortable with??
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2008 23:42:28 GMT -5
OPG and Johnny, I hope this isn't the best you have to biblically justify child beating.
What good shepherd uses his rod to beat the sheep into line? Just like Christ the Good Shepherd? Hardly. A good shepherd will gently use his rod to form a boundary for the sheep. Good parents will do the same.
Here's the one that parents and spiritual leaders will use to justify child beating:
"Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
Pretty clear? Not so fast. The Hebrew for the word "beat" or "smite" can mean a whole range of actions from "strike to kill" down to "touch".
There are a number of possibilities: 1.The original writer is a sadist who intended to convey beating the bejabbers out of children to somehow make them good citizens. 2.The original writer did not intend to convey violence to hurt a child but something much more gentle. 3.Some mad monk in the 3rd century rearranged the words to convey beatings for child discipline. What did he care? He didn't have any children.
Beating children just doesn't line up with the Nature or teachings of Christ. Anyone who has studied the life of Christ, the One who taught and lived non-violence, knows that. Christ taught non-violence even against enemies, so how much more important is it to refrain from inflicting pain on your own children?
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