|
Post by Dont forget on Dec 7, 2004 18:19:32 GMT -5
Sunday morning 63 years ago, the Japs bombed Pearl Harbour. Day of mourning. Lest we forget.
|
|
|
Post by botany on Dec 7, 2004 19:56:51 GMT -5
And let's not forget that the U.S. sent Japanese-Americans to concentration camps during WWII. andy
|
|
|
Post by no name on Dec 7, 2004 20:48:57 GMT -5
A day that will live in infamy. And let's never, ever forget our more recent one: 9/11/01
|
|
|
Post by To Andy on Dec 8, 2004 6:06:03 GMT -5
Young man, If you would have been alive in 1941, you wouldn't be talking like that. You enjoy your freedom today because of the sacrifices of our young man on the fields of Europe and Asia. If you ask your grandfather (if alive) or a great uncle, he might have a different view.
|
|
|
Post by botany on Dec 8, 2004 10:08:26 GMT -5
Young man, If you would have been alive in 1941, you wouldn't be talking like that. You enjoy your freedom today because of the sacrifices of our young man on the fields of Europe and Asia. If you ask your grandfather (if alive) or a great uncle, he might have a different view. I agree that there were great sacrifices, and I appreciate them. Both of my grandfathers, now dead, were WWII veterans. They both served in Europe, I believe. Being at war with a certain country does not give any right to herd people with the enemy country's descent into concentration camps. The same scenario today would be to herd people of Afghani and Iraqi descent into concentration camps simply because we are at war in/with those countries. A PBS show that air a month or two ago touched on this topic. It talked about the patriot act, and how it is similar to other "knee-jerk" reactions in the past such as making the Japanese-Americans move to concentration camps. I realize that Pearl Harbor needs to be remembered, and I do not want to minimize the importance of that morning in 1941. But, I also do not want us to gloss over what the U.S. did to Japanese-Americans in WWII. andy
|
|
|
Post by no name on Dec 8, 2004 20:38:59 GMT -5
I think most people enjoy their freedom, but might not have a truly profound appreciation for it, like those who lived through that time . . . . I only hope we always hold on to that gratitude and that it never diminishes, even when held up beside the imperfections of our past and present. I know that for myself, my love for the goodness of my country far outshines the disappointment I've felt about some of our errors. We are such an awesome nation.
I don't think it is glossed over; it is a black mark on our history, as well as other things in our past. But overall, the U.S. has been, and still is a force for good. We were (and still are) the "good guys" in the world battles against evil. And that fact should never be minimized as well.
My own grandfather served in WWII as well -- in the South Pacific; I am deeply grateful for anyone and everyone who fought against the Axis powers in WWII. God only knows what the world would have looked like if that madman and his allies had triumphed.
|
|
|
Post by ForeverFree on Dec 10, 2004 11:02:30 GMT -5
I don't think it is glossed over; it is a black mark on our history, as well as other things in our past. But overall, the U.S. has been, and still is a force for good. We were (and still are) the "good guys" in the world battles against evil. And that fact should never be minimized as well. I believe it is glossed over. The Canadian government did the same thing, and we too have that black mark that we are ashamed of today. We don't deny that it happened, but we also don't talk about it. Although I can't disagree with your statement of 'world battles against evil', no name, each of us are entitled to our own opinion about the way those battles are being fought. I, for one, disagree. You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb the world to peace.
|
|
|
Post by ClayRandall on Dec 10, 2004 11:39:54 GMT -5
With regard to what happened to Japanese-Americans, I haven't read Michelle Malkin's book In Defense of Internment, but I hear it is very interesting.
fwiw,
Clay
|
|
|
Post by botany on Dec 10, 2004 13:02:17 GMT -5
fighting for peace is like f*cking for virginity (or something like that... I can't remember exactly how it goes)
|
|
|
Post by bryan2 on Dec 10, 2004 13:07:26 GMT -5
fighting for peace is like f*cking for virginity (or something like that... I can't remember exactly how it goes) So how should we have one the war against the Nazis and Japan?
|
|
Dawn
Senior Member
Posts: 785
|
Post by Dawn on Dec 10, 2004 13:26:19 GMT -5
And talking about music is like dancing about architecture ;D
|
|
Apples
Junior Member
Posts: 153
|
Post by Apples on Dec 10, 2004 13:32:32 GMT -5
I think most people enjoy their freedom, but might not have a truly profound appreciation for it, like those who lived through that time . . . . I only hope we always hold on to that gratitude and that it never diminishes, even when held up beside the imperfections of our past and present. I hope we hold onto all of the rights we have and can learn from our mistakes. The Patriot Act is just a different form of Executive Order 9066. It removes rights from citizens. In both cases the media and the government inflating the potential danger to get the measure passed. 9066 made it legal extract Japanese-American families from their homes and confine them to one of several internment camps in the western United States for no reason other than the fact they were os Asian descent. The Patriot Act includes, among other clauses, the following: 1) Modification of the rules on records searches so that third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism. 2) Amendment of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, authorizing secret searches without public knowledge or Department of Justice accountability, so long as the government can allege a foreign intelligence basis for the search. 3) Allows "Sneak and Peek" -- extending the authority of FISA searches to any criminal search. This allows for secret searches of one's home and property without prior notice. So I would say that No, we have not learned from our past blunders. I think we all feel this way. But just accepting what is being done without speaking out does not mean we can avoid making the same mistakes in the future. I don't think we inspire quite as much awe as we used to. At one time the US was #1 in many areas. This is sadly no longer the case. I think we mean well and try hard. It seems in many cases we end up backing the wrong team. But NoName, the real madman was on our side and did triumph. We know exactly what he did and yet had no problem getting into bed, so to speak, with him. Let's look at the numbers: [/li][li]100-200,000 Jews [/li][li]5 million Ukrainians killed 1932-33 [/li][li]14-15 million Soviet peasants 1930-37 [/li][li]at least 3 million "enemies of the people" 1937-38 And this is not even taking into account the people shipped off to work camps. Stalin makes Hitler look like a rank amateur. Whether the US was a force for good or evil depends on which side of the fence you are on. You support the Allies who defeated Hitler. Yet one of the Allies was a man much more evil that Hitler. Who is the good side and who is the evil side? apples PS - does the Subject line on this topic strike anyone else as racist and just wrong? Regardless of their ideology and methods of waging war, they are still human beings.
|
|
Dawn
Senior Member
Posts: 785
|
Post by Dawn on Dec 10, 2004 13:40:37 GMT -5
Yes, Apples, the subject line is very wrong. In fact, it took me a couple of days to even read the post, as I felt sure it would contain nothing of interest to me. I don't generally read hate propaganda. It wasn't until I noticed that Andy replied that I thought it would be worth reading... ;D
|
|
Dawn
Senior Member
Posts: 785
|
Post by Dawn on Dec 10, 2004 13:44:45 GMT -5
Of course I should admit that I find quite a lot of ideas expressed here to be ... wrong.
|
|
Apples
Junior Member
Posts: 153
|
Post by Apples on Dec 10, 2004 14:51:24 GMT -5
And talking about music is like dancing about architecture ;D I think these are all ways to exress one's self. Just as one could describe a sunset to a blind person, music should be able to be discussed with words. Architecture with dance. Paintings have been described by music, in fact, Pictures at an Exhibition, by Modest Mussorgsky is a walk through a museum with stops at various paintings, all explained through music. Speech, music, dance, signing, semaphore, etc. - whatever it takes to get the message across. In someways we use all of these at once. Listen to the musical quality of some people's voice and watch as they use their hands, sometimes their whole body, to get their point across. Put them in front of a drawing surface and they will even incorporate graphic arts into their communication! apples
|
|
Apples
Junior Member
Posts: 153
|
Post by Apples on Dec 10, 2004 14:58:30 GMT -5
And let's not forget that the U.S. sent Japanese-Americans to concentration camps during WWII. andy Relocation centers. Concentration camps, although technically accurate, is a bit harsh and, in my opinion, used for its shock value. apples
|
|
|
Post by ForeverFree on Dec 11, 2004 1:29:12 GMT -5
Relocation centers. Concentration camps, although technically accurate, is a bit harsh and, in my opinion, used for its shock value. apples I don't know what they called them then, but today in Canada we look back and call them a displaced persons camp. A spade is still a spade in the dark.
|
|
|
Post by ForeverFree on Dec 11, 2004 1:35:13 GMT -5
So how should we have one the war against the Nazis and Japan? In my opinion, the war against the Nazis and Japan is different from the war in Iraq. Each of these attacked and conquered other countries. The world went to war to fight for those other countries, like big boys in the school yard protecting the little guy. Iraq and Vietnam are different. This time, the big guys in the school yard started picking on the little guy (or another guy). The first Iraq, yes, they were playing hardball with Kuwait, but this time...
|
|
|
Post by k on Dec 11, 2004 5:35:01 GMT -5
I say go after Iraq and then Iran, Syria, Pakistan and elsewhere. You have to defeat these axis of evil. You don't want Saddam's Baathist party in control of the oil fields. Iraq proved in 1991 that it was an agressor country.
|
|
Apples
Junior Member
Posts: 153
|
Post by Apples on Dec 11, 2004 16:39:21 GMT -5
You don't want Saddam's Baathist party in control of the oil fields. I tought the US was there for humanitarian reasons. apples
|
|
|
Post by Bertine Louise on Dec 12, 2004 4:58:18 GMT -5
Hm, I saw the movie Pearl Harbour last night on tv, that was pretty horrible too, lol.
Well, it is now, but it used to be mainly WMD's.
Speaking of WMD's and Japan... The funny thing is that the only country that actually has WMD's and has proven in the past it's not afraid to use the kind that is most feared, is the USA. Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki too.
|
|
|
Post by k on Dec 12, 2004 11:33:19 GMT -5
BL, Had the US invaded Japan, casualties for America AND Japan would have been MUCH higher. The Japanese wouldn't even give up when Germany surrendered. Only an invasion or atomic bomb would have brought them to their knees.
|
|
|
Post by no name on Dec 12, 2004 14:21:16 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, that is one of the reasons (among various others) for going into Iraq. The Patriot Act is just a different form of Executive Order 9066. I disagree -- there are no relocation camps for Muslims or Arab people. And as far as I can see, the media and various "activist" groups have inflated the potential "danger" of the Patriot Act. Once again -- where are the Muslim/Arab relocation camps? To me we do. And there are still people flocking to get in (legally and illegally). Stalin was evil, but we also knew that we had to fight with him to stop Hitler. And I am glad for whatever it took to stop him, even though it meant fighting on the same side with other "bad guys". And doing so did not put us on the "evil" side. I disagree with the comment that we had "no problem" getting into bed with him. We had to defeat a common enemy. Which we did. [/li][li]100-200,000 Jews [/li][li]5 million Ukrainians killed 1932-33 [/li][li]14-15 million Soviet peasants 1930-37 [/li][li]at least 3 million "enemies of the people" 1937-38 And this is not even taking into account the people shipped off to work camps.[/quote] This should prove to people like Forever Free that "peace" doesn't necessary mean a world without war, either. So -- according to you does this mean we should not have moved to stop Hitler?
|
|
Apples
Junior Member
Posts: 153
|
Post by Apples on Dec 13, 2004 1:08:29 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, that is one of the reasons (among various others) for going into Iraq. I keep forgettng. We also went to eliminate the WMDs! How can you inflate the loss of due process? No, there are no relocation camps. We deport them instead. Look at the two people - Stail and Hitler. Who was more evil? Fighting on the evil guy's side does not make us evil. But one reason fabricated to go to Iraq was because of the "evil team" that was there. Now you are saying association with an evil guy does not make one evil. You are sending mixed messages. Could you provide some illumination as to your belief? Who had a problem? But the greater enemy was on our side and we did not defeat that enemy. We fought the lessor of two evils. Had we sided with Hitler, Stalin would have been the common enemy. Did we side with the correct person to fight the war? No, that is not what I believe. I just thought you were jumping a little quickly in saying that Hitler was the evil person that you were glad was defeated when Stalin, by any measure, was a far more evil and dangerous man. apples
|
|
Apples
Junior Member
Posts: 153
|
Post by Apples on Dec 13, 2004 1:14:57 GMT -5
BL, Had the US invaded Japan, casualties for America AND Japan would have been MUCH higher. The Japanese wouldn't even give up when Germany surrendered. Only an invasion or atomic bomb would have brought them to their knees. So you are saying that the use of WMDs by a country is ok under certain conditions? There are many sides to your argument. Japan would not have had to be invaded. It is an island nation and does not have the resources to survive. Besides, the bombing of Tokyo showed that an equal amount of damage could be done without the use of atomic weapons. apples
|
|
|
Post by ForeverFree on Dec 14, 2004 1:43:48 GMT -5
Once again -- where are the Muslim/Arab relocation camps? They have gone hi-tech with the relocation camps. Instead of keeping them locked up somewhere to keep track of them, they now do biometrics (iris scans, finger printing and facial recognition) to keep track.
|
|