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Post by face it on Nov 2, 2004 7:19:34 GMT -5
When you wake up November 3, 2004, John Kerry, the Boston liberal, will be in the White House. Yet Republicans will win some open Southern Senate races so an ugly confrontation will occur in January. Kerry's narrow victory will not be a mandate. Also SD Senator Tom Dashle is in a close race. I said it here first: John Kerry will be the 44th president.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 2, 2004 9:17:15 GMT -5
What a bold prediction by an unnamed poster. Actually, I am preparing myself that God may well bring judgemnt on the nation through the person of John Kerrry. We as a nation have progressively turned our back on God and certainly don't deserve anything better. Still, I pray that God will continue to have mercy on the USA. Robb
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Cindi
Senior Member
Posts: 311
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Post by Cindi on Nov 2, 2004 10:04:40 GMT -5
"We as a nation have progressively turned our back on God and certainly don't deserve anything better."
Pretty judgmental comment Robb. I think most people in this country worship God. They may not all be as good a Christian as you appear Robb, but they are still one of God's children. And I believe He loves us all, in spite of ourselves and our failures. That is, after all, why He sent His Son.
I have faith that all things happen for a reason, and it is written that it rains on the just and the unjust. I leave everything in His hands. I have a vote, and I thank my God for allowing me the freedom to even have such a choice.
Peace,
Cindi
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Post by ClayRandall on Nov 2, 2004 11:07:51 GMT -5
When you wake up November 3, 2004, John Kerry, the Boston liberal, will be in the White House. Don't be silly. It could take a few weeks for Kerry and his teams of lawyers to litigate their way into the White House as local polling places try to sort out any incidents of voter fraud.
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Post by botany on Nov 2, 2004 12:03:04 GMT -5
Don't be silly. It could take a few weeks for Kerry and his teams of lawyers to litigate their way into the White House as local polling places try to sort out any incidents of voter fraud. Not only that, but Cheney will wage war on the U.S. when Kerry wins ( www.theonion.com/election2004/news_4041.php). That will slow down the White House transition.
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Post by Wondering on Nov 2, 2004 13:00:49 GMT -5
Don't be silly. It could take a few weeks for Kerry and his teams of lawyers to litigate their way into the White House as local polling places try to sort out any incidents of voter fraud. Will they sink as low as Bush and his followers did in 2000? Or will Bush do an instant replay of cheating to win the election?
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Post by bryan2 on Nov 2, 2004 13:09:48 GMT -5
Will they sink as low as Bush and his followers did in 2000? Or will Bush do an instant replay of cheating to win the election? YES... Bush STOLE the election in 2000!!! IT'S TRUE!!! Also, the USA didn't send a man to the moon.. It was a hoax! And in addition the world is FLAT... Don't believe the "world is round" LIE the republicans want you to believe!@
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2004 13:40:56 GMT -5
The main thing is a GOP Senate to dampen Kerry's liberalism. Why did Alaska Gov. Murkowski appoint his daughter to the open Senate race? And why did the GOP appoint a beer magnate as nominee in the Colorado Senate seat?
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Post by bryan2 on Nov 2, 2004 14:28:06 GMT -5
why not?
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Post by Why on Nov 2, 2004 15:37:33 GMT -5
The Democrats nominated a former governor. Why take a chance of losing the seat. Rep Young (I think that is his last name) represents the state. He would have had a better chance. Let's hope the daughter Murkowski can pull it out.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 2, 2004 19:06:47 GMT -5
A million murdered unborn babies each year can't be wrong. How true! However, I hope you have also read Revelations in addition to the gospels. Our God is both merciful AND just. Robb
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Post by bryan2 on Nov 2, 2004 19:25:20 GMT -5
The Democrats nominated a former governor. Why take a chance of losing the seat. Rep Young (I think that is his last name) represents the state. He would have had a better chance. Let's hope the daughter Murkowski can pull it out. With all due respect you don't have a clue with respect to the topic at hand... Why would Don Young move from the House to the Senate? He is 9th highest ranking member of the entire House, 4th highest ranking Republican member, and the Chairman of the Very Powerful Transportation and Infrastructure Committee....
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Post by It is clear on Nov 3, 2004 8:46:42 GMT -5
A million murdered unborn babies each year can't be wrong. It is important to stop abortions. These babies need to be born. We would not want to run out of cannon fodder.
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Post by A true psychic on Nov 3, 2004 8:54:16 GMT -5
When you wake up November 3, 2004, John Kerry, the Boston liberal, will be in the White House. And, like the vast majority of psychics, the prediction was incorrect. It rains more on the just because the unjust have taken the just's umbrellas. Nations do not worship nor turn against God. Individuals do.
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Post by Robb was wrong on Nov 3, 2004 9:28:30 GMT -5
We as a nation have progressively turned our back on God and certainly don't deserve anything better. Still, I pray that God will continue to have mercy on the USA. Robb The mercy bucket has gone dry God has punished the country with the plague of George Bush and company for the next four years. Parents with draft age children should hope that their children are not sacrificed to the egotistical goals of thr administration. Citizens should all pull together and pray that the US does not start attacking so many countries that the entire world will rise up against us. We can all rest easily in knowing that the government can enter and search our homes whenever they wish in order to keep us safe. We should pray that the freedom to worship as we wish is not the next freedom we lose in the noble effort to keep people safe. I ask one and all to pray for the United State in this, its darkest hour. --Roger J.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 3, 2004 10:48:47 GMT -5
Roger, Watch out for those black helicopters while drinking your Kool-Aid. ;D Actually, you are correct that we need to pray for the US and President Bush. Many of his policies and beliefs should be troubling to Christians. Now that we have done our duty, we can only pray and trust God for the future. Remember that God is even bigger than those black helicopters. Robb
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Post by Sad on Nov 3, 2004 20:02:41 GMT -5
The mercy bucket has gone dry God has punished the country with the plague of George Bush and company for the next four years. Parents with draft age children should hope that their children are not sacrificed to the egotistical goals of thr administration. Citizens should all pull together and pray that the US does not start attacking so many countries that the entire world will rise up against us. We can all rest easily in knowing that the government can enter and search our homes whenever they wish in order to keep us safe. We should pray that the freedom to worship as we wish is not the next freedom we lose in the noble effort to keep people safe. I ask one and all to pray for the United State in this, its darkest hour. --Roger J. For many years people have left religiously restrictive countries to escape persecution and to find religious freedom in America. People have struggled to leave countries that have treated their people inhumanely and where they had little in the way of the personal freedoms they heard Americans had. Is America becoming a country dominated by the will of fundamentalist Christians'? A country that will continue outlawing hard won freedoms rather than maintaining and granting additional freedoms? More people may think more seriously about leaving America for countries whose freedoms exceed Americas'.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 3, 2004 23:54:06 GMT -5
Sad,
Lets hope so, afterall it was founded by such people.
Actually Sad, I am very saddened by the apparent lack of understanding concerning the history of our Republic and the fundamental reason for the freedoms found in America. It is specifically the Christian ethic and God's Law that is at the root of our Republic. In fact, the moral law given to us by God Almighty is the foundation of the humanity and personal freedoms you speak of (although less and less each year as the US adopts more and more humanistic ideas). What other standard would you have us adopt, Sad? Should popular opinion be the basis of moral law or our liberty? Should a select few (judges) be able to determine moral law? No, the only way to protect the freedoms that you treasure is to acknowledge our God as the Creator and the One whom all rights are given by.
Robb
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Post by botany on Nov 4, 2004 9:40:34 GMT -5
Great. Then we would have another extreme, volitile country in the world to come at odds with other extreme, volitile countries. Nature shows us perfect examples of what happens in extreme reactions. Acid, base reactions. The stronger the acid and the base, the more extreme the reaction. The more extreme the weather fronts, the more violent the storms. An accident in rush hour traffic going 5 mph vs an accident at highway speeds going 55 mph+. I don't think it would be any different politically. Christians and Muslims have been at odds for many years. We have the Muslims spreading into Europe (Spain), Northern Africa, and the Byzantine area during the first several hundred years of Islam. Then we have the crusades to rid the world of the Muslims. When both sides are absolutely right and the other sides are absolutely wrong, what the heck to you expect out of it? A huge bloody mess. With nothing learned nor improved. andy
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Post by Just Here on Nov 4, 2004 9:41:32 GMT -5
[sad]Is America becoming a country dominated by the will of fundamentalist Christians'? Lets hope so, afterall it was founded by such people This is incorrect. The vast majority of the founders of this country were not Christian. It is doubtful that the Puritans would qualify as Christians by your definition. The founders did not believe that Jesus was God. Not half as sad as I am. There were no fundamental freedoms in the early days of America. The Pilgrims did not come here to establish religious freedom. They came to establish their beliefs as the only acceptable beliefs. Catholics were not allowed to live in most of early America. William Robinson and Marmaduke Stevenson were hanged in Massachusetts because they were Quakers. Roger Williams founded what was to become RI as a place that had some religious freedom. Although he was a Puritan he was banished from the Massachusetts colony. The Massachusetts "Body of Liberties" of 1641 stated that "if any man after legal conviction shall have or worship any other god, but the lord god, he shall be put to death." The state was in complete control of who, how, and when you could worship. The pilgrims were a cruel and unforgiving people who killed the native people on a scale that makes Saddam look like a saint. Writing about such an event Captain John Underhill wrote of the Pequot slaughter: "Sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents ... We have sufficient light from the Word of God for our proceedings." The Pequots who were not killed were sold as slaves to other tribes. Freedom of religion? Christian ethics? Neither was a part of what the founders brought to the New World. Christian Ethic?? In one of the Pequot massaquers of 1637, not only was the Indian village set on fire, those men, women, and children not fortunate enough to be burned to death were gunned down as they tried to escape the flames. Captain Mason "gave full credit to God" for the slaughter, while Captain Underhill claimed the Pequots had sinned against God and man! The Puritans were not content to merely kill their perceived enemies; they saw fit to murder and savagely mutilate them -- they literally "tore him limb from limb. Captain Underhill ended the victim's agony with a pistol shot. The body was then roasted and eaten by the Mohegans."
Please name these founders that you would consider to be Christian.
The judges do not decide moral law. They rule on civil law. Whether something is legal or illegal does not determine its morality.
The way to protect our freedoms is to set up a system of laws that protect the rights of every citizen equally. Keep the personal beliefs out of the government and keep the government out of the personal lives of the people.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 4, 2004 10:35:59 GMT -5
Present, I am sorry that you too have bought into the propaganda concerning the foundations of the US. I wonder if public schools may have had a hand in your misunderstandings. Are you really equipped to make such a judgement? David Barton has done extensive research on this subject and has written multiple books and videos on this topic. You might consider reading some of his material... it is a perspective that you have obviously not been exposed to. Quite an assumption on your part. Again, you assume alot about the founders whom you have apparently not studied very much about. As for the rest of your post. Again you trot out a list of exceptions and actions that run contrary to the Christian faith in an attemt to prove something. However, the exceptions never disprove the rule, nor do perversions of a belief system change the tenant of a belief system. We could discuss exceptions all day, but they would only prove the rule. Sure, just as long as we keep your personal belief of abortion out of it. ;D What about your foundational personal belief about equal rights for all citizens... should we throw that out in favor of your Muslim neighbors personal belief to the contrary? The problem that we face when we have no objective standards of moral law, is that it (law and public policy)becomes TOTALLY a matter of personal opinion... and who is to say that your "personal opinion" is superior to mine? Contrary to what you may have been taught, there was a time in this country that most Americans accepted God's Word as the basis for moral law in this country. Yes, there were exceptions and there were also varied interpretations and applications of God's law to our situations. Still, it was understood that God is the giver of our rights and liberty, not government. Sadly, most citizens don't even undertand these basic concepts. They falsely believe that their humanistic ideology is somehow less religious than any other ideologies including Christianity. Robb
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 4, 2004 10:43:24 GMT -5
Yes Andy, I feel your pain, but remember you can do something to help... just submit to others in every situation and there will be no more conflict. After all, Hitler was just a misunderstood teddy bear.
Robb
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Post by Just Here on Nov 4, 2004 23:08:39 GMT -5
One thing that public schools did teach me was that when you make a statement it is good to have some facts to present rather than just saying the other person is wrong.
I do not have to make a judgement. I can read the words of the founders themselves. Would you agree that some of the more prominate founders would include George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe? They were not Theists. They were Diests. Perhaps you have some information you could share that points to the fact that they were indeed Christians, believing that Jesus is God.
As a reference I have put 12 quotes from David's book at the end of this post. In parenthesis is what WallBuilders finally said about each qoutation after it was questioned.
There are a couple of things wrong with your statement. The first is the phrase "extensive research". This is what Barton failed to do. Many of the quotations he relied on he now admits are groundless. At least nine of the 12 below were included in Barton's 1989 book, The Myth of Separation, which were also included in the video you mentioned, "America's Godly Heritage." Barton was so fond of one quote supposedly uttered by Benjamin Franklin ("Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world.") that he included in a biographical sketch distributed by WallBuilders about Barton. They even say it "fully sums up what David believes and teachers."
Barton now admits the quote is "questionable" and recommends people don't use it.
The second is assuming that I have not looked at both sides of the argument and investigated the data.
I am just glad you didn't throw in Pastor Pete Peters as additional spport.
How do you define a Christian? Is Jesus God? A belief in the trinity?
Perhaps I am mistaken but I would like to actually have a response so I can learn the errors of my ways.
Above there is a list of what most people consider to some of the major players in the founding of the United States. In their writings there is no support of the concept that Jesus is God. I did not even mention Thoman Paine, considered by contempories to be the voice of the founding fathers.
Exceptions? The slaughter of the natives? It was the rule. From Massachusetts to Virginia to Florida the natives were "converted" by the Europeans.
What I believe is right and wrong should not be of concern to you unless I infringe on your rights.
People should all have equal rights. Again, what the Muslim neighbors believe to be their rights stop when they infringe on the rights of others.
My personal opinion is nothing but my personal opinion. Just as yours is yours. But you keep trying to impose what you think is right and wrong on others. Why not let them decide for themselves what is right and wrong?
God's word was used as man's laws. That is why the Quakers were hung in Massachusetts. That is why they stone people in Iraq. That is why we need to leave religion in the churches and not in the government.
That was the Jefferson's plan
"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." -- Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
The Bogus Quotes ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! -- Patrick Henry (questionable)
It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. -- George Washington (questionable)
Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian. -- Holy Trinity v. U.S. [Supreme Court] (false)
We have staked the whole future of American civilization, nor upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves ... according to the Ten Commandments of God. -- James Madison (false)
Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world. -- Benjamin Franklin (questionable)
The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer. -- Noah Webster (questionable)
There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet. -- Noah Webster (questionable)
The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion. -- Abe Lincoln (questionable)
The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next. -- Abe Lincoln (questionable)
A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or eternal invader. -- Samuel Adams (questionable) [this can be found in Harry Alonzo Cushing, ed., The Writings of Samuel Adams (1908), Vol. 4, p. 124 -- Cliff Walker, May 1, 2002]
I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens. -- Thomas Jefferson (questionable)
America is great because she is good. and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great. -- Alexis de Toqueville, Democracy in America (definitely not in the book; perhaps in other more obscure writings; questionable)
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 5, 2004 15:36:41 GMT -5
John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813:
The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite....And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: . . . Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System. Lester J. Capon, ed., The Adams-Jefferson Letters 2 vols. (Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), 2:339-40
Robb
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 5, 2004 15:49:14 GMT -5
Congress was sitting in New York on April 30, 1789, when Washington took the oath of office as Chief Executive. From his Inaugural Address:
"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to the Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow-citizens at large, less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the affairs of men, more than the people of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency. And, in the revolution just accomplished in the system of their united government, the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the event has resulted, cannot be compared with the means by which most governments have been established, without some return of pious gratitude along with a humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage. These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have forced themselves too strongly on my mind to be suppressed. You will join with me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free government can more auspiciously commence."
Present, would you object to such talk and action from a president today?
Robb
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 5, 2004 15:55:00 GMT -5
In his Farewell Address, Washington reminded the nation:
"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion, and Morality are indispensable supports.—In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. —The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them.—A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity.—Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion.—Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure—reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.— "
Present,
It sounds like our first president and most influencial founding father might have disagreed with your view of the "seperation of church and state".
Robb
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 5, 2004 16:02:54 GMT -5
In The Writings of George Washington, JC Fitzpatrick, ed., Wash. DC: US Govt Printing Office, 1932, Vol 15, p.55 we read Washington telling the Delaware Indian Chiefs,
"You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention." (from speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779.
In his handwritten prayer book, which he carried with him, the Name "Jesus Christ" appears sixteen times, and also appeared numerous times in varied forms, including "Lord Jesus."
On May 2, 1778, when the Continental Army was beginning to emerge from its infamous winter at Valley Forge, Commander-in-Chief Geo Washington commended his troops for their courage and patriotism and then reminded them:
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." (Writings, (1932) XI:342-343, General Orders of 5/2/1778)
US Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall said of Washington,
"He was a sincere believer in the Christian faith and a truly devout man."
Gunning Bedford, who signed the Constitution, gave Washington's funeral oration, in which he said
"To the character of hero and patriot, this good man added that of Christian. . . . Although the greatest man upon earth, he disdained not to humble himself before his God and to trust in the mercies of Christ."
...enough for now...
Robb
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Post by Robb Klaty on Nov 5, 2004 16:06:58 GMT -5
Glad to be of service. Robb
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