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Post by Dan S on Nov 1, 2007 21:01:53 GMT -5
For those of you that have left the 2x2s, was there a straw that broke the camels back? In other words, was there something that made you say; "Okay. That does it. I'm done."?
What were the circumstances surrounding your "AHA moment" when you realized that you no longer wanted to stay in Truth?
I'm asking this because I just got this e-mail from a friend (reproduced with permission, names changed to protect the innocent):
Dan:
Thought I'd drop a line to say Kate and I talked it over and we're done (feels odd to say that).
During the after meeting chit-chat tonight Ralph was talking about getting a co-worker to Gospel meetings and told us their conversation. He said he described us as Christians. As soon as he said that Sara [5yo daughter] looked at me and said "We aren't" Christians are we daddy?" If that wasn't bad enough, Doris [elderly lady] said "Not really honey" then muttered something about "worldlings". Then a mini-debate erupted over whether or not we should call ourselves "Christians". Kate and I just looked at eachother. We were shocked and when it was all over we realized we hadn't said a word in our amazement.
On the way home we agreed we have no business in a church that has to argue over whether it's Christian. Honestly.
It's kindof a relief but now the tough part starts. When we go out Saturday I'll have lots of questions for you about your exit - telling relatives, workers, etc.
afn
-George
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Post by ithascome on Nov 1, 2007 22:04:34 GMT -5
I teach in a 60% Hispanic school.... every year I hear the same arguement among the students "catholics are not christian" What do you think? Why would they say that? There seems to be a correlation here.
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Nichole M
Senior Member
I John 1:5 ..... God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Posts: 486
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Post by Nichole M on Nov 1, 2007 22:13:28 GMT -5
It was a long process for me - Many little things that I couldn't reconcile with scripture - But I hung onto "this is the right way" Finally I read a letter someone had written to a worker and it resonated with me - Bringing many of these things together that for so long I had questioned.
Things like - outward appearance and is it really as important as the f&w place it. Like how Older workers Nursing home stays really are paid for vs what is told to the friends.......I now can not remember it all.....It got me thinking.......Then Praying - I wasn't sure I could stay in the 2x2's anymore but I still had this belief "This is the right way" and if I left I would not have a relationship with God and I would goto Hell. I prayed and Prayed and Prayed and told God all my heart and feeling that were going on about this. I was willing to stay if that was the only way I could have a relationship with Him. But the unexpected happened. As I prayed and shared all that was in my heart with Him he drew me closer and closer to Him and taking me away from the 2x2's and the system. He drew me closer until I let go of Meetings and new I would never return and at that moment I felt His arms wrap around me and fill me completely with His Love - The 1st time I ever felt His love.......And then I was filled with overwhelming Joy.......That Joy does not go away....even know in telling this part ......It consumes me.......
Wow......referring to the letter you posted......What a conversation to have......It certainly would be disconcerting to even question if you are a Christian or not......
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Post by ithascome on Nov 1, 2007 22:17:21 GMT -5
Children sometimes speak, in their simplicity, more wisely than their elders. Do you agree?
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Post by aussiegal on Nov 1, 2007 22:27:09 GMT -5
I had several AHA moments... but it's taken close to 8 years to finally be out and know that I'm not going back.
First reason was the judgemental attitudes of many of the "friends" that I witnessed here. The self-righteous attitude IMO was sickening. The gossip is hurtful and I've had plenty of gossip spread about me that was untrue, unfounded and yet people would judge me because of the untruths.
Second reason was the overwhelming fear. I realised that I didn't love God... I was outright terrifyingly SCARED of Him! Not a healthy way to live.
Third was the explanation that was given to me that they were the ONLY way. All others were going to hell and eternal damnation.
Fourth is I could see how many things were changing. There seemed to be no charity. The only people getting money was the workers - that money was not shared with people that were less fortunate. I saw a few poor people that suffered dreadfully - I don't think they're in the 2x2 church any longer. Yet my senior worker brother has the latest laptop computer, mobile phone, money galore and the latest gadgets. To me it just seems to wrong when they're meant to be "homeless" preachers with no worldly possessions.
Fifth reason is I could finally see that I didn't know much about the Bible or God's words. I knew the "unspoken rules" of the workers... but that was about it.
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Post by electbygrace on Nov 2, 2007 0:21:52 GMT -5
I teach in a 60% Hispanic school.... every year I hear the same arguement among the students "catholics are not christian" What do you think? Why would they say that? There seems to be a correlation here. That is nonsense, of course the Catholic church is a "Christian church" and there are many true ("possessing") Christians who are Catholics (I know some). And there will be probably an even greater number of Catholics who are nominal ("professing") Christians but who aren't. It's not for us to judge or label. Tares and wheat stuff. Similarly the F&W church (denomination if you like) is Christian. Again, the tares and wheat will apply.
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Post by ithascome on Nov 2, 2007 4:48:27 GMT -5
If the Catholic church is a "Christian church" don't you think it would be a good idea if the children knew it. When I have told my students that the Catholic church is a "Christian church" they have looked at me as if they do not think that I know what I am talking about ... some have even argued with me about it. They do not believe it. There is something wrong here.
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ecarg
New Member
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Post by ecarg on Nov 2, 2007 6:32:13 GMT -5
Looks like two threads here...........
WHY I LEFT? My experience is similar to aussiegal. 1. Being terrified of God was not healthy. I didn't feel that I could talk to God about what I needed to talk to him about the most. Like my struggles and sins. I was not taught about God's love EVER. It wasn't until I joined a different Church, that I felt God's amazing love and grace. 2. I was sexually abused by a worker. 3. Outward appearance didn't make since to me. My inner being needed worked on, not my outward being. 4. Judgemental attitude was a biggie. I knew amazing people that didn't go to meeting. I coudn't imagine them going to hell. 5. I've never seen outreach to the poor, hurting, needy. Ever. If you don't go to meeting, then there is no outreach from the 2x2's. 6. Theology. It's weak.
To move to the second question: Yes...........Catholic children should know that they are Christian. They are Catholic Christians. If theyare students, you have a tremendous opportunity to do some teaching. Maybe theythink that if they say "christian" without the term Catholic, that they are wrong. Just a thought! I've been told many times, that because I'm Catholic, I must not be a Christian, because I have not accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. WRONG. I have. By my theological beliefs are much different than most Protestants. ( otherwise the Reformation wouldn't have taken place ) So they don't think I'm saved, or I'm a Christian. It's not just the kiddos that are confused on this issue. You said something about "hispanic" children. WHY? Another misconception, that all hispanics are Catholic? Just wondering where you were coming from. Not to judge or be a racist, but maybe you are dealing with a culteral/traditional issue here and not a religious one. Just a thought. Peace everyone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 6:55:22 GMT -5
There can sometimes be big issues with being called "Christian" because it has many meanings. There are cultural Christians, who just believe in the ideals of Western civilization. There are moral Christians who just believe in being "good." There are religious Christians who hold to some church beliefs, be it Anglican, Catholic or Moonies. But Christian in the bible was a pejorative term used to describe those who identified with the rebel and bandit called Jesus.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 7:00:55 GMT -5
One man's last straw with false religion was when his search for the truth took him right to a high ranking ecclesiastical figure. He told us he was ushered through the gates of this great man's home by servants, and wondered at the power and opulence of his priestly living.
A lady in our church told of her last straw when she had been sick for some while. When she returned to her church and explained she was told her absence had not been noticed.
Another man told how his priest publicly scorned others. One day scorned "those two wolves" who had just come to the town and set up a tent.
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 2, 2007 7:07:56 GMT -5
Howdy Bert, Another man told how his priest publicly scorned others. One day scorned "those two wolves" who had just come to the town and set up a tent. Probably a couple of bikers passing through town. We are SO misunderstood... Why do people think we smell funny. It's just the smell of baked on bugs! ;D Scott
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2007 7:15:05 GMT -5
Speaking of things baked on. Sometimes we have grasshopper (read locusts) plagues in NSW. Try riding a bike through them - they roast on the engine. On one occasion a large plastic bag blew across the road, and wrapped itself around my rather hot bike engine!
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 2, 2007 7:21:53 GMT -5
We get June bugs.... It's like getting hit by a rock. Took one in the middle of the forhead just over my windsheild this year. That'll leave a mark!!! Scott Yeah bags and paper sacks blowing up are no fun...
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Post by electbygrace on Nov 2, 2007 7:23:24 GMT -5
If the Catholic church is a "Christian church" don't you think it would be a good idea if the children knew it. When I have told my students that the Catholic church is a "Christian church" they have looked at me as if they do not think that I know what I am talking about ... some have even argued with me about it. They do not believe it. There is something wrong here. Now I understand. The children who are Catholic don't associate with the term Christian. Maybe it's a language thing, you said they are hispanic, perhaps English isn't their first language, they think "Christian" means Protestant perhaps. You just gotta teach them proper English!! And on the subject, while the reformation was absolutely essential, many who stayed in the continuing Catholic church (either the Roman or Eastern Orthodox varieties) will still have been (and are) genuine Christian (possessing the Spirit). I sometimes think it's just even harder for them, with the strength of their entrenched system & families, to break free of Catholic system beliefs (faith in their system) and to become free in the Spirit. Those who are genuine believers, yet stay and encourage others to come to true faith, deserve every credit and encouragement (I know some).
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Post by outseveralyears on Nov 2, 2007 8:02:32 GMT -5
copied from another post "It was a long process for me - Many little things that I couldn't reconcile with scripture -"
Same for me. I began closely watching what the workers were saying-how it agreed with the scripture. I wasn't smart enough to pick up some Bible commentaries or other translations of the Bible. I stuck to the KJV and plowed through. Many things I heard didn't line up with the scripture. This went on for several years.
I eventually got and read different translations, but certainly didn't tell my meeting. I began to search more diligently the things that were bothering me.
I'd leave meeting upset over things that I'd heard spoken that were in direct opposition to what the scripture said. I began to dread going to meeting and found excuses to miss.
Eventually I heard about William Irvine. I don't care that he was the founder of this group but that I was directly lied to by workers. I was told time and time again that this way orginated at the shores of Gallilee. There was a direct line of workers that could be traced to the dark ages then the trail was lost and picked up again. It wasn't that I cared about WI but the fact that it was lied about and covered up. I began meditating and praying desperately for God to show me what he wanted from my life.
As the leaving process continued I experienced huge relief. It was like an elephant was off my shoulders. I could be a believer following the NT teachings-love God and love your neighbor. I could do out-reach beyond the confines of the meeting people. I could fellowship with other believers. I didn't have to be so judgmental. I didn't have to try to sugar coat anything. I didn't have to try to appear perfect.
I am not to the point yet where I can say that I was glad for the time spent in meetings. I'm hoping that some day I'll see good that came from this experience.
There wasn't one big thing that drove me out. It was a series over the course of a number of years. Bit by bit God showed me and finally the scales fell off. It is a wonderful experience to truly see God and to be able to read the scriptures without putting the meeting doctinal spin on.
Joyously praising and worshiping, God the father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit,
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Post by 12 straw program on Nov 2, 2007 10:16:18 GMT -5
I'd professed for nearly 20 years. I'd always questioned things about Truth in my heart but never dared voice them to anyone. There were hundreds of little things that just didn't make sense when compared with scripture and what I was being led to believe by the Holy Spirit. Yet for some reason I just couldn't shake the feeling that "the way" was "the only way".
Then began my 12 straw program from God.
1> I became increasingly troubled with the non-scriptural aspects of Truth. I didn't know what to do. 2> God gave me a message in a child's testimony "If God is ignoring our prayers, it's because we're praying to ourselves. We need to pray to God." I prayed to God for help like never before. 3> I heard a rumor about Tim Severud. He'd spent time with my children. I wanted to know more. 4> For the first time in my life, I searched the internet for something related to Truth. I googled "Tim Severud". 5> I found this site. I read about Tim Severud. 6> I followed a link to the TTT website. 7> William Irvine. Wow. So much started to make sense. 8> Lies about William Irvine. Wow. How wrong. My eyes began to open. 9> Excommunications. Wow. How very wrong. My vision improved. 10> Exclusivism. Wow. How so very wrong blasphemous. My eyes were open. 11> Came back to TMB and read more. My eyes were open and I could see clearly but my heart still questioned what I'd seen in straws 8, 9, and 10. 12> Bert and GloryInTruth. Spent 4 non-stop days reading what they'd written on the TMB and Bert's website.
Problem solved. Issue resolved. Matter fixed. Disease cured. Thank God.
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 2, 2007 11:06:02 GMT -5
To all who have written here... There is a re-newed Veterans of Truth (called VOT for short) website being designed. The new Administrator is an American lady I have known for many years (it is NOT me!). She has been working hard and diligently on it. The new VOT follows the theme of the old VOT; however, it will have CURRENT comments quotes, letters on it. The old VOT froze up and could not be modified. The owner didn't want to be responsible for it any longer. So, having been a tremendous help to many in its "as is" condition, it has been moved around to various website hosts, and is now situated at the above URL: Veteransoftruth.infoThere will be some other additional subjects covered on the new VOT. It will not repeat what is on other websites. VOT is primarily a website about FEELINGS and EXPERIENCES of the exes. The new one will have items that have not ever been placed on the internet before. Some life stories; exit letters, and I think the posts on this thread would be very good to go in the new VOT. Does anyone who has posted here have any objections to their post being placed on the new VOT? Your "handle" will be used for your "name" unless you specify otherwise (which would be nice). It seems that posts by people who use their real names are given more credibility by readers. Thanks for your help, and if you have any ideas for the new VOT, please let me know. You can PM me or email at: truth@earthlink.net My email/internet are down until Sunday tho. I'm writing this from work.
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Post by Youth on Nov 2, 2007 11:27:52 GMT -5
There wasn't a last straw for me. It was a slow process of exit, still in the exiting process. I work about 80 hours a week so my attendance at meeting hasn't been what it used to be this past year. My exit involved deciding that I really had no desire to marry into Truth, raise my kids this way ect.
I woke up on a Sunday morning(the first Sunday in August) and decided that I was going to get my ears pierced. I called my close girlfriends and off to the mall we went(I am in my late 20's). For the next month or so(I usally work till 2 or 3am at my second job) I would sleep in on Sundays then go to a casual brunch with my friends around noon. I love Sundays more than ever now. I couldn't take my earrings out for the first few weeks so I figured I would miss a few meetings. Then August rolled into Sept and Oct came and went. My only day to sleep in is Sunday and every night of the week after I leave the office I head to my job in a resturant and I never get home before 1am. I have had perfect peace with my 3 month departure from meetings. I also didn't go to convention for the first time ever this year.
A young couple in my Sunday meeting and their kids stopped coming recently. But I don't know why. What if I said I have peace about not going to meetings and that I don't miss them? I have respect for the Truth, but don't really buy into it. My parents don't know yet, and I am very nervous about how and when they will find out.
I didn't leave meetings so that I could get earrings. It was just a part of reaching my point where I decided I was done. When you are done, you are done. There isn't always a last straw.
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Post by To youth on Nov 2, 2007 11:54:01 GMT -5
I know several women that used their new earrings as sort of an "announcement" of their decision.
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Post by ScholarGal on Nov 2, 2007 12:48:02 GMT -5
My parents don't know yet, and I am very nervous about how and when they will find out. I hope you find the courage to inform your parents BEFORE they find out from someone else. Recently I had a long conversation with a man who stopped going to meetings, informed the local workers of the decision, but couldn't figure out how to break the news to his parents. The network of the friends and workers is a VERY small world. Within a few months, his grandparents were informed by a visitor traveling through who happened to stop at their house for Sunday meeting. So, his parents found out because the grandparents called and asked, "Did you know your son stopped going to meetings?" In retrospect, this man says that the way he handled the situation was the worst mistake he's ever made in his life. My advice... If you can't summon the courage to tell your parents in person or on the phone, send them a short email or a note card. It doesn't have to explain your reasons, just that you decided meetings weren't right for you. Tell them you wanted them to find out from you, before they hear it from someone else.
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Post by Sojourner Truth on Nov 2, 2007 13:04:08 GMT -5
Like others, the fear of God cultivated in the "Truth" was not of the healthy kind. In fact, it stymied my relationship with God.
I also was aware that charity in the "Truth" did not extend beyond themselves as a rule.
Favoritism was rampant. Rules were enforced upon some, and a blind eye turned toward others; it depended upon who you were. What was once seriously frowned upon suddenly became okay when one of the favored friends (one with money or related to the workers) needed to do it (i.e. divorce, psychiatric counseling).
And as others have stated the self-righteous attitude that they were the one true way. Even if "outsiders" could give very insightful, scriptural messages they really didn't know what they were talking about.
The heavy, slow depressing manner in which the hymns were sung as if everyone was living under a 5 ton weight. No joyful noise there.
After I left, not one worker inquired of me why I left. They asked my husband but never me. I don't think my leaving was such a big deal to anyone of them as long as my children still attended. And when William Irvine became public it was just extra nails in the coffin.
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Post by Lynn C on Nov 2, 2007 16:03:16 GMT -5
In meeting, we only used the word Christian when talking to outsiders but we did not really call ourselves Christian. We were in fact, professing. Christians were worldly people. I think this child told the truth. This is the belief we were brought up with and this was the belief that was being instilled into this child, that we are not Christians. It is only as we get older do we begin to learn that we say one thing to outsiders and believe another. In other words we try to appear to be Christian when in fact we believe we are not.
What made me leave? I went to a Baptist church, and my eyes were opened you might say, and as i read the Bible I began to see that what was written in the Bible was not what we believed in meetings. I had only interpreted the Bible in terms of what the workers had taught us and what I was brought up to believe, but in fact this was not the Gospel. What I heard in the Baptist church was the Gospel.
Then I found out we were started by man and not Jesus as I had been taught and I really began to see through the whole thing. A Christan is a follower of Christ, who believes that Jesus is the way, and that we should not believe that any churhc or group of men are the way, but that Jesus only is the way. Our church became the way, instead of Jesus. The message of salvation is Jesus not a group.
As for the word Catholic, doesn't the word Catholic mean Christian.
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Post by movin on up on Nov 2, 2007 17:11:23 GMT -5
I live in the midwest and I remember hearing at a special meeting back in 2002 one of the workers said "it's okay for us to call ourselves Christians".
I was stunned and I remember my family talking about it like it was some "new" thing that had changed and it troubled us (that something was "changing" (evil word in Truth)) but we knew that it had to be a right thing.
Thank God those days are wwwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy behind us now!!!
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harpic
Junior Member
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Post by harpic on Nov 2, 2007 18:52:35 GMT -5
Catholic actually means universal. The Catholic Church = The Universal Church
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Post by ithascome on Nov 2, 2007 20:23:56 GMT -5
About a third of all Catholics in the U.S. are now Latinos. I would say in the south the percentage would be greater. Most of the Hispanic children I teach are from Mexico. More than eighty percent of all Mexicans are at least nominally Catholic.
Yes I have thought about that... maybe this is the problem.
Yes but I have to be so careful with separation of church and state issues. I teach in a public school
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Post by electbygrace on Nov 2, 2007 20:43:51 GMT -5
Yes but I have to be so careful with separation of church and state issues. I teach in a public school You sound like a very wise and caring teacher to these students. They are fortunate to have you teaching them. A local (public) school chaplain who died tragically had a death notice by the school community "he always preached the gospel, and used words when necessary". Your life and influence on those students can be profound. Blessings!
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Post by Gem on Nov 2, 2007 20:52:43 GMT -5
I think starting tonight I am going to sit down and start a Bible study on the word "Christians." Any suggestions for where to start in my Bible?TIA
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Post by ithascome on Nov 2, 2007 22:36:11 GMT -5
While you are at it also make a study of the word Bible in the Bible. You will find the same resultants.
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