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Post by OWOTO on Aug 23, 2006 17:52:52 GMT -5
To OWOTO I'm curious. Did you write this as an opinion or as an observation? Amazed Observation. I've been a 2x2, awed by the workers. Ten years ago, I equated worshiping the workers with worshiping God - since I perceived it as God's power that enabled them to so humbly deny themselves so well. I know 2x2's today that still worship the workers this way, though they'd word it differently. I've also known many non 2x2's, awed by their temples. For example, an old friend of mine tried many times to convince me to come to one of his Church's services; the whole time, he praised their new $3M building, the bass singer and how great his voice was, the skill of their drummer, the new big-screen plasma display, the special effects, and the comfortable seating. (He never said a word about Christ or the message of Christ I would hear.) I have observed that 2x2 or not, many people seem to miss the ultimate point; Christ.
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Post by hrl on Aug 23, 2006 17:57:35 GMT -5
Where does Jesus say that we must go out preaching a certain way? Where is that Biblical? Jesus said in Matthew 10 clearly that that was how they would go while he was with them but he clearly said that was only his ministry to the Jews. He gave no instructions on how to go to the gentiles. The workers go out nothing like Jesus did. Jesus had no where to lay his head, He wandered around getting a room in an inn (hotel) or if someone offered him a bed he no doubt stayed there. They had a bag which Judas carried in which people would give them money. A bit like a beggar. Jesus did not have the comfort of a bed to go home to like the workers. Nor did he stay in a place for a year like the workers. You cannot compare the ministry of Jesus and the workers. The workers are like boarders in a home but pay nothing. The points I am making is first there was no instructions on how to go put and preach (Salvation is not on our own works ) what do you say about Luke 22 when Jesus clearly showed that his instructions were only while he was on earth and his instructions were the opposite to Matthew 10 but the workers ignore this and choose to do what they want any way. They ignore these words of Jesus. Secondly, they go out nothing like Jesus did anyway. Just they don't own a house but instead live in someone elses. Jesus didn't do this. He lived a nomadic lifestyle. Who carries the bag in meetings for people to give them money. The workers don't wander around streets preaching, and sleeping where they can find someone holding out a bag for people to give money. Jesus appeared to be more like a street person than how the workers live. There is no comparison between Jesus lifestyle and that of the workers. There is nothing Biblical about the workers minsitry or about any ministry being important. Actually, Jesus had a following of people whereever he went; a throng, if you will, and they loved Jesus and doted on Him and were protective of Him and tried to provide for Him what they could... they provided an ass to travel on and so forth, but the truth was that Jesus was giving more than He received from the throng, and He was passing on the love of His Father in Heaven, and His followers couldn't get enough of Him and even though they desired to worship Him, He constantly deflected the power to His Father In Heaven as the only good thing. Jesus went from place to place, but you can bet that wherever He went He was cared for by His followers and He also had natural family.....
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Post by hrl on Aug 23, 2006 18:03:47 GMT -5
To OWOTO I'm curious. Did you write this as an opinion or as an observation? Amazed Observation. I've been a 2x2, awed by the workers. Ten years ago, I equated worshiping the workers with worshiping God - since I perceived it as God's power that enabled them to so humbly deny themselves so well. I know 2x2's today that still worship the workers this way, though they'd word it differently. I've also known many non 2x2's, awed by their temples. For example, an old friend of mine tried many times to convince me to come to one of his Church's services; the whole time, he praised their new $3M building, the bass singer and how great his voice was, the skill of their drummer, the new big-screen plasma display, the special effects, and the comfortable seating. (He never said a word about Christ or the message of Christ I would hear.) I have observed that 2x2 or not, many people seem to miss the ultimate point; Christ. Excellent points! I too experienced the same as you in 'other churches', [fancy schmancy multimillion dollar churches......] with pastors who make 6 digit salaries. I can honestly say I have never really felt in awe of workers; although my mom seems to have some of that 'awe':; different generation I think. I think the focus is in on Christ, less on workers and way more on love. It's a more free-thinking generation that is driving this with current professing folks, especially in more liberal areas.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 18:37:40 GMT -5
Jesus said in Matthew 10 clearly that that was how they would go while he was with them but he clearly said that was only his ministry to the Jews. He gave no instructions on how to go to the gentiles.
This is a silly argument. a) Jesus said his word was to be preached in all the world b) We have the full account of how a God commissioned and blessed Gentile ministry was conducted in the Acts and the letters.
The workers go out nothing like Jesus did. Jesus had no where to lay his head, He wandered around getting a room in an inn (hotel) or if someone offered him a bed he no doubt stayed there.
Jesus and later his disciples largely stayed in the homes of those who were faithful. He said to enquire within who was worthy in each town, and stay there.
They had a bag which Judas carried in which people would give them money. A bit like a beggar.
I don't recall Jesus or the disciples giving anyone money. I may be wrong in that, but no verse comes to mind.
Jesus did not have the comfort of a bed to go home to like the workers. Nor did he stay in a place for a year like the workers.
as above
You cannot compare the ministry of Jesus and the workers. The workers are like boarders in a home but pay nothing.
as above
The points I am making is first there was no instructions on how to go put and preach (Salvation is not on our own works ) what do you say about Luke 22 when Jesus clearly showed that his instructions were only while he was on earth and his instructions were the opposite to Matthew 10 but the workers ignore this and choose to do what they want any way. They ignore these words of Jesus.
Do you think we should go out and buy swords?
Secondly, they go out nothing like Jesus did anyway. Just they don't own a house but instead live in someone elses. Jesus didn't do this. He lived a nomadic lifestyle. Who carries the bag in meetings for people to give them money. The workers don't wander around streets preaching, and sleeping where they can find someone holding out a bag for people to give money. Jesus appeared to be more like a street person than how the workers live.
I don't see Jesus as being a "street person."
There is no comparison between Jesus lifestyle and that of the workers.
There is nothing Biblical about the workers minsitry or about any ministry being important.
Given what is written above I find this an odd statement
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Post by Jessi on Aug 23, 2006 18:42:13 GMT -5
I am in awe of several people. Some are athletes, authors, historical figures, biblical characters, a smattering of workers, some teachers. Besides people, I have witnessed awesome sunsets, starry nights, vistas of fall foliage--I could keep going, but what's the point? I don't get it. Someone makes a statement, which is obviously incorrect, about the fellowship of 2x2s being in awe of their workers. It is incorrect because no one can speak for the entire body. We're a bit diverse. Exactly. Is being in awe of something wonderful and/or profound a sin, depending on how far one takes it? Can one be in awe of something, yet simultaneously noting that it really comes from God?
~~ When does being in awe become idolitry? Maybe that is the question.When it replaces (with ANYTHING or ANYONE ELSE) the glory that belongs to Lord Jesus Christ who is exalted above all Names and deserves all glory, majesty, dominion and power forever (Jude 25). I share with my teachers in the Lord "all good things" (Gal 6:6) I give honor and presents and love to pastors and elders and their wives in my church. But I do not nor ever will stand in awe of them. They are sinners just like me. God is not respecter of persons. Neither should I be: I Sam 16:7, Rom 2:11, James 2:1, I am in awe of three persons in One LORD, THE LORD GOD. I am in awe of the Lord Jesus Christ who came to earth and became a man and was tempted in every way as I am -- and yet was sinless. God bought me with His own blood and I am in awe of the Sovereign One, the Holy One, Adonai, who stood in my place and died what should have been my death, took the stripes that should have been mine. He gave His life for me so I could have eternal life. He IS the Glory of the LORD GOD. Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by Brick on Aug 23, 2006 18:45:07 GMT -5
I guess you're just not easily impressed.
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Post by hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm on Aug 23, 2006 20:29:57 GMT -5
I share with my teachers in the Lord "all good things" (Gal 6:6) I give honor and presents and love to pastors and elders and their wives in my church. But I do not nor ever will stand in awe of them.Self contradiction......... anyone............
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Post by a believer on Aug 23, 2006 22:00:55 GMT -5
Bert, I think it is not good how you ridicule scripture by saying re Luke 22: Do you think we should go out and buy swords? If you don't agree with it you will omit bits of scripture and try to ridiiclue it.
Read the whole verse and you will see Jesus said more.. verse 35 when I sent you without purse, bag or sandels did you lack anything? But now if you have a purse take it, also a bag and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (Why? because it is written And he was numbered with the transgressors
.. so how can there be any mistake other than taking no purse, bag, cloak and sword was while Jesus was on earth. If it was a custom for us to take a sword adn it is not today.
So if the workers think that they should not take a purse (although we know they do) then why do they take a bag and wear shoes....?
You stick to something which was for Jesus while he was on earth and ignore it when he stated why it was no longer required. AGain I say that the workers do not go out like Jesus. Jesus had no where to lay his head, the workers go home to a nice warm bed every night. The ones I know do, they are not homeless itinerant preachers. They do not roam around preaching the Gospel, they have a fixed abode.
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Post by Jessi on Aug 23, 2006 22:25:11 GMT -5
I guess you're just not easily impressed. Not by fellow sinners. Only the LORD GOD, who is Holy and righteous and just. No human deserves His glory. Because if someone is godly, he is godly because GOD wrought the change in the person's life. The person does not merit the glory that belongs to God. If anyone is loving and Christ-like and "good" it is because of Christ, who gets all the glory, not the person, lest he should boast. If one boasts, he should boast in the LORD (II Cor 10:17). Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Aug 23, 2006 22:30:50 GMT -5
I share with my teachers in the Lord "all good things" (Gal 6:6) I give honor and presents and love to pastors and elders and their wives in my church. But I do not nor ever will stand in awe of them.Self contradiction......... anyone............ In what way is this self contradictory? Giving honor to (as is biblically instructed in Gal 6:6) and standing in awe of (God is no respecter of persons - Lev 19:15) is the same thing?
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Post by bowhunter on Aug 24, 2006 16:46:11 GMT -5
Dunno about this "awe" business. I wouldn't use terminology like that. You wrote "No mention of anything biblical"Well "amazed", how would you modernise and re-interpret the following passage from Thessalonians 5:12. Feel free to toss in various Greek translations, references to Luther or Augustine, papal encyclicals, post-modernist theory etc.. And we beseech you, brethren, that you come to know those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake.Does the above make your stomach churn? Why does Paul say to esteem the labourers? For their works sake (there's that word works again.) "No mention of standing in awe of the Grace of God"Actually, that's implicit in esteeming the labourers - only the grace of God can cause people to give up their lives for the gospel. How much does your minister earn a week? and "We are there as the body of Christ"okay, if you say so. I feel it would be safe to say that quote is to encourage the Body to get involved with and become intimate with the Elders and Deacons who "work" among them. There are many direct,clear references to deacons,elders,helpers and their duties and responsibilities to those they serve-but,alas,almost no reference to the position of 'worker' within the same context. The F/W religion has borrowed the term 'Worker' from the Faith Mission church vernacular and made it exclusive to the so-called ministry. Our pastor and Elders refer to workers in the church in the context of those who perform physical tasks for the community and in the church family. I feel that is much more accurate than what the F/w church does,because of the above mentioned reasons and the simple fact that the 'workers' don't work at anything and certainly don't make an effort(for the most part) to meet any real needs in the group. As for ministers being paid-that is most certainly supported by scripture.Here's one snippet-"Muzzel not the ox that treadeth out the corn" There are several others so I challenge others to do a study on this topic and prove the scriptures truth versus "workers' interpretations.
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