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Post by amazed on Aug 23, 2006 8:37:38 GMT -5
Re: Standing In Awe « Reply #9 on Aug 15, 2006, 12:06am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the friends stand in awe of their workers
the world stands in awe of its temples This statement literally made my stomach turn. How much clearer can it be stated? The friends stand in awe of their workers? ? No mention of standing in awe of Christ Jesus. No mention of standing in awe of the Grace of God. No mention of anything biblical......only the workers!!!!!!!! This sounds like it could have been said from the microphone at convention with such condescension about "all the world". I'm sorry but the building where I attend Bible services and have Bible studies, is an out-of-date cement block and brick building and we by no means worship the building. We are there as the body of Christ, not standing in awe of ANY human on this earth or any building on this earth.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 9:28:52 GMT -5
Dunno about this "awe" business. I wouldn't use terminology like that.
You wrote "No mention of anything biblical" Well "amazed", how would you modernise and re-interpret the following passage from Thessalonians 5:12. Feel free to toss in various Greek translations, references to Luther or Augustine, papal encyclicals, post-modernist theory etc..
And we beseech you, brethren, that you come to know those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake.
Does the above make your stomach churn? Why does Paul say to esteem the labourers? For their works sake (there's that word works again.)
"No mention of standing in awe of the Grace of God" Actually, that's implicit in esteeming the labourers - only the grace of God can cause people to give up their lives for the gospel. How much does your minister earn a week?
and "We are there as the body of Christ" okay, if you say so.
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Post by amazed on Aug 23, 2006 9:47:12 GMT -5
The following definitions are from the Merrium-Webster Dictionary, Online.
Awe 1 : an emotion variously combining dread, veneration, and wonder that is inspired by authority or by the sacred or sublime <stood in awe of the king> <regard nature's wonders with awe>
Esteem 1 archaic : WORTH, VALUE 2 archaic : OPINION, JUDGMENT 3 : the regard in which one is held; especially : high regard <the esteem we all feel for her>
Awe and Esteem are two different things. The poster did not say the friends hold the workers in high regard or high esteem or the friends see the workers as highly valuable. The poster said the friends stand in awe of the workers. No mention of God or Christ, The Word, etc. This makes it so clear to me that the workers are what is most important, not the Word of God.
Makes me think of what we always said when someone had questions about the F&W. We said, "Why don't you come to a Gospel meeting?" or 'If you have questions you can ask a worker". They never said "Would you like to get together and we can have a Bible study?"
How amazing it was to me to sit down and STUDY THE BIBLE. How amazing it was to go through the Books of the Bible chapter by chapter, verse by verse. What a wonderful change came over my life. The Bible was opened up to me and it had nothing to do with a worker or a meeting.
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Post by wanate1 on Aug 23, 2006 9:49:15 GMT -5
Though not a member of the 2x2's (as they get called here), I am definitely amazed by the workers. The way they live (no family, no car, no house, no measurable income) would not be possible if they did not fervently believe that they had God's helping hand. Human desires for those things is awfully strong.
Regardless of the religion, I am always in awe of anyone with that much faith and belief towards helping others be saved.
As an occasional "lurker" here, I do understand the many different opinions and the debate that takes place. I certainly do <b>not </b> understand all the bitterness and criticism that gets leveled towards the F&W's. Such venom.
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Post by amazed on Aug 23, 2006 10:40:12 GMT -5
I see a small amount of bitterness, almost no venom except from those who are throwing the "bitter card" at the exes. When you sit back and really look at where the bitterness is coming from, it's hardly ever from the exes. I see so much love and peace coming from those who have left and I see mostly complaining and defense coming from the F&Ws.
This is by no means across the board. There are many still in the F&W who can carry on a civil discussion and not throw names about. I admire those people even though I don't agree with much they have to say. I am thankful that I can read what is said and am able to find things that I agree with and things that I don't, regardless of the poster.
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one way or the other
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Post by one way or the other on Aug 23, 2006 10:42:30 GMT -5
the friends stand in awe of their workers the world stands in awe of its temples I wrote this and after seeing it discussed in another thread, I find that its sweeping tone makes me wish I'd written it a bit differently. I find this more accurate: some of the friends stand in awe of their workers
some of the world (aka non-friends) stand in awe of its templesI should have written it this way to begin with and I apologize for any offense caused by my previous, rather broad statement. OWOTO
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Post by amazed on Aug 23, 2006 12:26:53 GMT -5
To OWOTO
I'm curious. Did you write this as an opinion or as an observation?
Amazed
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Post by hrl on Aug 23, 2006 12:35:28 GMT -5
Re: Standing In Awe « Reply #9 on Aug 15, 2006, 12:06am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the friends stand in awe of their workers
the world stands in awe of its temples This statement literally made my stomach turn. How much clearer can it be stated? The friends stand in awe of their workers? ? No mention of standing in awe of Christ Jesus. No mention of standing in awe of the Grace of God. No mention of anything biblical......only the workers!!!!!!!! This sounds like it could have been said from the microphone at convention with such condescension about "all the world". I'm sorry but the building where I attend Bible services and have Bible studies, is an out-of-date cement block and brick building and we by no means worship the building. We are there as the body of Christ, not standing in awe of ANY human on this earth or any b uilding on this earth. I am glad you brought this up, because it has been addressed over and over again by the workers themselves that they do NOT want to be put on a pedastal, and that it's not about them, but it is about God and the life of Jesus. Now, you probably know and I know that it is a very common human flaw to be "IN AWE" of various things/people. Personally, I am more in awe of a great work of art than people. But I should be in awe of God, period;; and His great creation and His great LOVE. NOT in awe of the 'thing' or the 'human', but in awe of GOD. Standing in awe of God. THAT is it!
Remember, workers ARE people. The 'friends' are people. They are ALL human and they have flaws. But that is not to say that you or I can put them all in a box and make blanket statements that they are all this way or that way.
Have you ever in your life idolized someone? Some celebrity, some rock star, some great artist, athlete, actor or human leader? I have. And I think most people have. It is a human tendency. And the friends tend to treat their workers with 'honor' and respect that can border on awe... but really, if you had an inside view to the hearts of some of the friends, it's not the worker that they are honoring , but it's the Godly spirit and message that they see IN the worker ; they connect that with God. True, we ALL need to be in personal and direct connection with God, through Jesus interceding, NOT a priest, pastor, the pope or a worker. NO HUMAN can intercede for us. Only Jesus. We humans CAN love and esteem and HELP each other in healthy ways that are not idol worship.
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eurp
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Post by eurp on Aug 23, 2006 12:37:05 GMT -5
This is another example of a reply to something relatively innocuous being turned into an accusation, a slating and a lambasting of the 2x2s and workers.
The topic was something quite different, but taken out of context the quoted quote is made to be something it never was in the first place. And made a way to get off more shots at the 2x2s.
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Post by amazed on Aug 23, 2006 12:46:26 GMT -5
Dunno about this "awe" business. I wouldn't use terminology like that. You wrote "No mention of anything biblical"Well "amazed", how would you modernise and re-interpret the following passage from Thessalonians 5:12. Feel free to toss in various Greek translations, references to Luther or Augustine, papal encyclicals, post-modernist theory etc.. And we beseech you, brethren, that you come to know those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake.Does the above make your stomach churn? Why does Paul say to esteem the labourers? For their works sake (there's that word works again.) "No mention of standing in awe of the Grace of God"Actually, that's implicit in esteeming the labourers - only the grace of God can cause people to give up their lives for the gospel. How much does your minister earn a week? and "We are there as the body of Christ"okay, if you say so. Guess I didn't respond to this entire post. I don't think it's implicit in esteeming the labourers, (even thought the word awe was used). I see nothing wrong with holding a person in high regard or high esteem. If I want to say that I am in awe of the Grace of God, that's what I say. I don't say something different then try to say that it really means something else if you read between the lines. Actually, at this time we do not have a minister and I don't see what that has to do with anything I've mentioned. Don't try to bring that up. I don't want to get off on a discussion of how the workers have no money because we all know they do and we also all know that it is not necessary to have no home or families to be able to preach the Gospel. I will not respond to the last little jab.
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Post by amazed on Aug 23, 2006 12:52:42 GMT -5
This is another example of a reply to something relatively innocuous being turned into an accusation, a slating and a lambasting of the 2x2s and workers. The topic was something quite different, but taken out of context the quoted quote is made to be something it never was in the first place. And made a way to get off more shots at the 2x2s. Correct, the original discussion was about amazing churches. If I were to respond to that, wanting to tell what I hold in awe, I would say...."I am in awe of the Grace of God" and "So and so is in awe of worldy buildings" or something to that effect. I would not make a claim to hold a person or group of people in awe. My point is that it seems too often that the friends and workers first thank the workers for the way. They too often speak of the workers sacrifice. They too often speak of the workers period. I find too little speaking about how thankful they are for Jesus. How thankful they are for the blessings they have from God. It is something I still struggle with today because it is so ingrained in me to not mention God or Jesus outside of meeting. How sad it must be for God to never hear his name outside of a meeting. We must be thankful for our blessings each day. What better way to let others know of the Grace of God than to mention it in our daily lives?
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Post by hrl on Aug 23, 2006 13:04:46 GMT -5
This is another example of a reply to something relatively innocuous being turned into an accusation, a slating and a lambasting of the 2x2s and workers. The topic was something quite different, but taken out of context the quoted quote is made to be something it never was in the first place. And made a way to get off more shots at the 2x2s. Correct, the original discussion was about amazing churches. If I were to respond to that, wanting to tell what I hold in awe, I would say...."I am in awe of the Grace of God" and "So and so is in awe of worldy buildings" or something to that effect. I would not make a claim to hold a person or group of people in awe. My point is that it seems too often that the friends and workers first thank the workers for the way. They too often speak of the workers sacrifice. They too often speak of the workers period. I find too little speaking about how thankful they are for Jesus. How thankful they are for the blessings they have from God. It is something I still struggle with today because it is so ingrained in me to not mention God or Jesus outside of meeting. How sad it must be for God to never hear his name outside of a meeting. We must be thankful for our blessings each day. What better way to let others know of the Grace of God than to mention it in our daily lives? Amazed, Again, I think this is a worthwhile discussion, because I believe that human tend to be in awe of so many 'things', rather than being in awe of God. BUT, please do remember that not everyone is like this all the time.
I need to POINT OUT that I have attended many other churches and found the congregation to be 'IN AWE' of their leaders, be they pastors, priests, Morman bishops, the pope, or the 'shaman'. In fact, I know some Christians in other churches who go to a certain church only because the love the pastor. Now, you tell me: are they following a certain man, instead or God? Hmm. Seems that way..........[glow=red,2,300]Are they 'in awe' of their pastor?[/[/glow] Yes, they are. And that is the wrong emphasis, isn't it?
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Post by amazed on Aug 23, 2006 13:12:38 GMT -5
I think much of the confusion is over the word "awe". I think many people in many churches hold their ministers, pastors, rabbis, etc. in high regard and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It is human. Awe is a much different thing and I think if you were to ask the question most would say that high esteem or high regard would be a more accurate way to describe how they feel about their spiritual elders.
I myself have those who I hold in high regard but in NO WAY does it compare to the awe I have for what Christ has done for me. In NO WAY does it come close to how I feel about the Word of God. I have been to some different churches and seen admiration, love, high esteem for those leading the church. I can't say I've come across any who stand in awe of them.
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Post by hrl on Aug 23, 2006 13:36:37 GMT -5
I think much of the confusion is over the word "awe". I think many people in many churches hold their ministers, pastors, rabbis, etc. in high regard and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It is human. Awe is a much different thing and I think if you were to ask the question most would say that high esteem or high regard would be a more accurate way to describe how they feel about their spiritual elders. I myself have those who I hold in high regard but in NO WAY does it compare to the awe I have for what Christ has done for me. In NO WAY does it come close to how I feel about the Word of God. I have been to some different churches and seen admiration, love, high esteem for those leading the church. I can't say I've come across any who stand in awe of them. Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree there are different cases and that there are some friends who border on 'worker worship'. And that most of the workers today do not like that and are trying to thwart that. And THAT is a good thing......
But in some other churches, members are not only in 'awe' , but feel they only gain salvation through certain men here on earth. If you are a fundamemtalist Morman, you may only enter into the Kingdom if your husband gives a special passward on your behalf, if you are a Catholic, you much confess your sins to a Catholic priest, if your are Pentacostal, you are 'saved' if you are Baptized by the Holy Spirit and able to speak in tongues, '. I think you get the idea......this concept of being in awe of others, instead of just being in awe of God, is not a unique 2x2 phenomenon. ..... and each person will be accountable for worshpping someone or something other than God............whatever religion they are.......
Now, that term, "awe". Yes, it can be found anywhere, by anybody.....especially in the world.......with celebrities, musicians.......star athletes, and world leaders. hmmm. And you think the workers are held in awe? ...... Doesn't compare to how the world in general 'awes' or idolizes 'things' and celebrities. No comparison.
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Post by amazed on Aug 23, 2006 13:47:32 GMT -5
I don't know anything about the Morman church, just the fact that they have added books to the Bible I think. That is more than I need to know, telling me I want nothing to do with that religion. I know a few Catholic people, can't say I've heard them sounding in awe of their priest, maybe when I'm not around...I don't know. However, I don't agree with the confessing your sins to a priest...no worries about me converting to Catholisism (sp?). I don't know anything about the Pentacostals either so I can't speak about them. I think 'in the world' younger people are much more likely to be in awe of celebrities, however I'm not really talking about that.
All I'm saying is that in so many cases, the workers are spoken of, referred to , quoted, etc. so much more than Jesus. Why is it not always Jesus first? Why is it not spoken of in daily lives? The workers get much more mention of (in total speaking time) than Jesus.
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Post by hrl on Aug 23, 2006 14:10:23 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that in so many cases, the workers are spoken of, referred to , quoted, etc. so much more than Jesus. Why is it not always Jesus first? Why is it not spoken of in daily lives? The workers get much more mention of (in total speaking time) than Jesus.-amazed amazed, I think I 'get' what you are saying and I cannot DISagree that the focus should perpetually be on JESUS, always and forever, on Jesus and God's love. Fellowship should not be about humans, but it's humans that are doing the fellowshipping, [haha] so, I think you are always going to run into that human tendency to hold others in high esteem. Does that literally mean AWE? Not sure that's usually the case; there is a great DANGER that it could be the case, in which case I think it's good when workers point to Jesus and NOT themselves, and workers move from place to place; not getting too attached and/or entrenched with the lives of the friends, which may just cause more and more of this same problem. But DO remember that the Bible talks about teaching and preaching and spreading the Gospel as being essential. Only each one of us knows our own experiences of how, when and where we feel that we received a REVELATION of God's gift of salvation and love. For me, it was not just the workers that helped to reach my heart or hearts, but it was the LOVE of the friends, that was probably more significant.
You write in present tense, which tells me you are current on what is being said in meetings and are going to meetings or have recently been in meetings.
I like to remember that God DOES work through PEOPLE, including workers, and there is nothing wrong with that and that people CONNECT with special people from time to time and there is nothing wrong with that, but we need not take it so far as to be in worship mode of something else other than God, ; rather love one another. Love pretty much covers everything, anyways.
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Post by hrl on Aug 23, 2006 14:20:14 GMT -5
Here's the deal: There are friends who rely greatly upon the workers for their spiritual 'bread' and sustinence. Thus you will hear them quoted in testimonies, and such. I do not think that they LITERALLY worship them, though.
Outside of meetings, the friends talk about other friends more than they do the workers; that's my take... So, YOU may THINK that the workers are the main focus, but in reality, they are NOT. Sorry to disappoint you.......
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eurp
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Post by eurp on Aug 23, 2006 14:21:22 GMT -5
"How sad it must be for God to never hear his name outside of a meeting. "
I wonder what this means? Its clearly not true that God doesn't hear his name outside a meeting. Meetings are one place that God would hear His name. Temples, churches, homes, outside, at work all manner of places.
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Post by hrl on Aug 23, 2006 14:24:42 GMT -5
"How sad it must be for God to never hear his name outside of a meeting. " I wonder what this means? Its clearly not true that God doesn't hear his name outside a meeting. Meetings are one place that God would hear His name. Temples, churches, homes, outside, at work all manner of places. I agree, eurp. Have you eurp'd lately? [just kidding........] Sometimes, a good eurp is good for what ails you. Speaking for myself, we talk about God in our home and in our car a lot. Just two places where we talk about God.......there are many others.......thanx.
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Post by a believer on Aug 23, 2006 14:30:32 GMT -5
The workers do not have to own a car or house they have other peoples free. I believe my pastor is worthy of his hire and I have more respect for someone who recieves a wage than one who lives of others free.
You had it made why would you leave?
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Post by Brick on Aug 23, 2006 15:13:54 GMT -5
I am in awe of several people. Some are athletes, authors, historical figures, biblical characters, a smattering of workers, some teachers. Besides people, I have witnessed awesome sunsets, starry nights, vistas of fall foliage--I could keep going, but what's the point?
I don't get it.
Someone makes a statement, which is obviously incorrect, about the fellowship of 2x2s being in awe of their workers. It is incorrect because no one can speak for the entire body. We're a bit diverse.
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Post by amazed on Aug 23, 2006 15:37:22 GMT -5
The simple point is this. The most awe inspiring thing to me is God's Grace and Mercy. Jesus blood shed on the cross for me. If I were trying to make a point to counter everyone's awe of buildings it would not be my awe in another human or group of humans. No more, no less.
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Post by a believer on Aug 23, 2006 15:48:36 GMT -5
Where does Jesus say that we must go out preaching a certain way? Where is that Biblical? Jesus said in Matthew 10 clearly that that was how they would go while he was with them but he clearly said that was only his ministry to the Jews. He gave no instructions on how to go to the gentiles.
The workers go out nothing like Jesus did. Jesus had no where to lay his head, He wandered around getting a room in an inn (hotel) or if someone offered him a bed he no doubt stayed there. They had a bag which Judas carried in which people would give them money. A bit like a beggar. Jesus did not have the comfort of a bed to go home to like the workers. Nor did he stay in a place for a year like the workers. You cannot compare the ministry of Jesus and the workers. The workers are like boarders in a home but pay nothing.
The points I am making is first there was no instructions on how to go put and preach (Salvation is not on our own works ) what do you say about Luke 22 when Jesus clearly showed that his instructions were only while he was on earth and his instructions were the opposite to Matthew 10 but the workers ignore this and choose to do what they want any way. They ignore these words of Jesus. Secondly, they go out nothing like Jesus did anyway. Just they don't own a house but instead live in someone elses. Jesus didn't do this. He lived a nomadic lifestyle. Who carries the bag in meetings for people to give them money. The workers don't wander around streets preaching, and sleeping where they can find someone holding out a bag for people to give money. Jesus appeared to be more like a street person than how the workers live. There is no comparison between Jesus lifestyle and that of the workers. There is nothing Biblical about the workers minsitry or about any ministry being important.
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Post by Brick on Aug 23, 2006 15:51:12 GMT -5
Awesome post. Awesomely off topic.
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Post by sjg on Aug 23, 2006 16:24:39 GMT -5
Regardless of the religion, I am always in awe of anyone with that much faith and belief towards helping others be saved. Trouble is they are NOT "helping others be saved." They preach a false gospel. Plus GOD is the One who does the saving NOT man. NO one's salavation is dependent upon the workers....not hearing their message....not following their example.....not being faithful to them. We are saved by faith IN CHRIST.
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Post by to wanate 1 on Aug 23, 2006 16:29:41 GMT -5
Though not a member of the 2x2's (as they get called here), I am definitely amazed by the workers. The way they live (no family, no car, no house, no measurable income) would not be possible if they did not fervently believe that they had God's helping hand. Human desires for those things is awfully strong. Regardless of the religion, I am always in awe of anyone with that much faith and belief towards helping others be saved. As an occasional "lurker" here, I do understand the many different opinions and the debate that takes place. I certainly do <b>not </b> understand all the bitterness and criticism that gets leveled towards the F&W's. Such venom. it is not hard to understand my friend when you know that it is satan who is driving it, because it is not Christ like and not of God.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 16:35:03 GMT -5
Regardless of the religion, I am always in awe of anyone with that much faith and belief towards helping others be saved. Trouble is they are NOT "helping others be saved." They preach a false gospel. Plus GOD is the One who does the saving NOT man. NO one's salavation is dependent upon the workers....not hearing their message....not following their example.....not being faithful to them. We are saved by faith IN CHRIST. a good example of satan says
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Post by hrl on Aug 23, 2006 17:05:21 GMT -5
I am in awe of several people. Some are athletes, authors, historical figures, biblical characters, a smattering of workers, some teachers. Besides people, I have witnessed awesome sunsets, starry nights, vistas of fall foliage--I could keep going, but what's the point? I don't get it. Someone makes a statement, which is obviously incorrect, about the fellowship of 2x2s being in awe of their workers. It is incorrect because no one can speak for the entire body. We're a bit diverse. Exactly. Is being in awe of something wonderful and/or profound a sin, depending on how far one takes it? Can one be in awe of something, yet simultaneously noting that it really comes from God?
~~ When does being in awe become idolitry? Maybe that is the question.
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