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Post by Ed on Oct 23, 2007 7:36:42 GMT -5
Matt 20:25-26 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you:...
Does this teaching of Jesus allow for the 2x2 hierarchy of
Regional overseer State overseer Elder male worker Junior male worker Elder female worker Junior female worker Local elder Substitute local elder Those in favor with local elder Those out of favor with local elder
This is not a post to slam your religion. Surely even the most devoted 2x2 here can recognize that the above authority structure is not biblical and needs to change.
I ask again, who is the overseer according to the Bible?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 7:50:11 GMT -5
quote - "who is the overseer according to the Bible?"
Paul was an overseer in Asia Minor, along with Apollos and Cephas if I recall. These men adjudicated issues, established doctrines, created new churches, fed the flock, wrote the scriptures, kept out the wolves, removed the apostates and generally suffered the most from official persecution.
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Post by Gopher on Oct 23, 2007 7:58:55 GMT -5
If you don't like the structure, don't join!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 8:07:21 GMT -5
Many f&ws see Paul as overseer with underlings. There is no biblical support for that. We have largely modeled the bible on our system, not the other way around.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 8:13:38 GMT -5
quote - " We have largely modeled the bible on our system, not the other way around."
Authority is one of the strong themes of scripture. You obey it in the church as you obey it in the world. You may not like it, you may not like who wields it, but that's too bad. We intend to do a section in our 2009/2010 web site which details the authority the early preachers / apostles / servants / workers possessed.
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Post by Ed on Oct 23, 2007 8:26:23 GMT -5
Bert, Please take 5 minutes and do a word search on the word "overseer". It's not hard; try it here www.biblegateway.comReally
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Post by Ed on Oct 23, 2007 8:30:20 GMT -5
Nathan, don't forget the Spirit also ordains elders.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
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timber
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Post by timber on Oct 23, 2007 8:39:50 GMT -5
There is no doubt that there are those who are in authority over us. Paul considered himself to be a father to many of the churches. This position of authority should be taken up with the realization that one serves the people who he is responsible for. I think, for practical reasons, there needs to be a hierarchy of some kind - no one person can do everything and if you have everyone doing everything, its just mass confusion.
I do think the role of elder needs to be more aligned with that in scripture.
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lizzy
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Post by lizzy on Oct 23, 2007 14:27:35 GMT -5
After over over 20 years our elder is beginning to see that his duties go beyond providing a home for meetings. Elders need to reach out to those that attend their meetings. It is good to do a study on the qualifications of an elder. We could all benefit from having those qualities.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 20:51:44 GMT -5
Jesus expressly denied his disciples to assume powers of authority. Yes, in spite of that, church systems do have authoritarian structures, including the F&W church. The justification of power mongering in modern churches has long rested on the developing early church where the Spirit was being rather quickly usurped by man's authority, effectively thwarting the work of the Spirit. You don't have to go much further in church history to see this happening right through to the horrors of the Dark Ages. If Jesus expressly spoke against authoritarian hierarchies, why do we love them and defend them so much? Simple, in the vacuum of no Holy Spirit, people cry out for leadership and there are always some who are only too happy to oblige them. For an excellent bible based article on this subject, written by an ex-2x2, ex-worker, go to friendsoftruth.us/rulers.htm24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest. 25 And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called 'benefactors.' 26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.
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Post by 1A1UMPV on Oct 23, 2007 21:10:54 GMT -5
CD - thanks for sharing. Who is JWW?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 21:18:58 GMT -5
He preferred his initials only on the article for public sites. However, his name is available through a PM to me. CD - thanks for sharing. Who is JWW?
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Post by jh62 on Oct 23, 2007 22:52:29 GMT -5
Hi Nathan, I noticed you quoted I Cor. 12. Thank you, it's caused me to read this whole chapter. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.To me it seems as though every member of the body of Christ has been given some special gift, but clearly states later in the chapter how each member of the body is necessary (and has no more authority than another), as stated in the verse below: 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again to the feet, I have no need of you.I have questions about the verse you mentioned, I Cor. 12:28: And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, the gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.Do you feel this verse shows there should be those who have more authority in the church than others? Also, I understand the workers think of themselves as apostles, but where are the prophets? Where are the teachers? I suppose maybe the workers are considered the prophets and teachers also? Where are the healers? The helpers? The governments? I'm wondering if the workers feel they have all of these positions covered, and there are no positions for the rest of the members? Just wondering what your thoughts on this are.
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Post by jh62 on Oct 23, 2007 23:37:07 GMT -5
So nice to see you say this, Nathan. I was afraid you weren't going to mention special gifts of everyone in the church, and only attribute them to the workers. I think we almost agree here. While I can see that some need to guide, teach, and maybe even play mediator, I don't believe any have spiritual authority over others in God's eyes.
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Post by jh62 on Oct 23, 2007 23:53:04 GMT -5
Beautiful post, Nathan. Thank you.
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Post by Ed on Oct 24, 2007 8:32:29 GMT -5
Timber wrote:
That may be the case many times, but not always. Consider the following verse; Prov 30:27 The locusts have no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands
Also why do you suppose God was upset with Israel for wanting a King?
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