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Post by déjà vu on Oct 22, 2007 21:43:47 GMT -5
Has anyone heard of any recent excommunications ,since the mass ex in western Canada? Or are the F&W more tolerant, for fear of loosing more ( members)?
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Post by juliette on Oct 22, 2007 21:54:43 GMT -5
There is a thread about excommunications in the registered members only part of this board. I'm not sure if there are many recent ones.
I wonder what would happen if someone refused to be exed? If they just continued to come to meetings and take part.
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Post by Dude on Oct 22, 2007 22:21:28 GMT -5
The workers need you to believe in them. Its the only way they can make it through the day. They attack those who do not believe in them. They may actually have to depend on God some day and quit taking people from the crib and teaching them about themselves. They might then quit using fear as their weapon of choice. So wrapped up in themselves they trample over others eagerly. Making God seem like a miserable prude. God is no bully ! Thats why Jesus came to save us from people like the workers and their evil pretense......As if !!! Workers suck ! God is much more understanding than the workers.........
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2007 22:28:28 GMT -5
Excommunications still continue, but at a much slower pace that at its height in the AB situation. Today, excommunications are rare and very selective, and typically have considerable support from the laity before it is done.
The "silent" excommunications that go on regularly is the sifting process of new people. The workers are very careful about letting someone in who might upset the delicate balance of the local church.
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Post by My dad on Oct 23, 2007 1:48:28 GMT -5
My dad was excommunicated less then a year ago or something... They still happen.
There just hasn't been huge ex communications like the one in canada where it is brought to everyones attention because you know with something like that there were dirty dealings behind the scenes with people being excommunicated for no apparent reason except for a power hungry worker taking advantage of his power.
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Post by truthisnotalie on Oct 23, 2007 3:12:48 GMT -5
About the excommunications in Alberta. A few questions ?? (a) When did this happen ? (b) Over what period ? (c) Who was the main worker or workers involved ? (d) And what were the mains causes or reasons for this to happen?
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Post by _ on Oct 23, 2007 4:13:21 GMT -5
About the excommunications in Alberta. A few questions ?? (a) When did this happen ? (b) Over what period ? (c) Who was the main worker or workers involved ? (d) And what were the mains causes or reasons for this to happen? www.thelyingtruth.info/excoms/index.htm
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Post by 3 on Oct 23, 2007 6:38:52 GMT -5
Back in the 70's, there were women who were excommunicated b/c there were pregnant. We were admonished to not communicate with them in any way.
Once they gave birth, they could attend the meetings but had to re-profess. All 3 women did marry the fathers of the babies.
(I wish I could remember what happened to the men involved, being as these were professing dating couples. I can only assume that they, too, weren't allowed fellowship until after the birth of the babies.)
I was a teenager back then but felt this was a very harsh sentence - especially as there was to be no communication with any of them.
Current day 2x2-ism - does this still happen???
I
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Post by truthisnotalie on Oct 23, 2007 7:04:12 GMT -5
I know of couples in Australia who had to get married in a hurry and needless to say the baby was born less than 9 months after the marriarge.
However they were not stopped from taking part in the meeting, probably because they were married long before the baby came.
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Post by WildDaze on Oct 23, 2007 7:40:51 GMT -5
Remove the aspect of religion.
This is a club, if you will. There are leaders and members. There are rules. You join the club and agree to the rules. If you do not follow the rules you are asked change or to leave.
A few points:
1) If you do not want to follow the rules do you really want to be in this club? 2) If you think the leaders are wrong do you want to be in this club? 3) If you no longer believe what the leaders say then why do you care what they say is going to happen to you once you have been asked to leave?
You have some options:
1) If you don't think this club is right for you, start your own. 2) Join another club that you feel is right for you. 3) Don't join another club and live your own life.
I read pages and pages of people complaining about things and how they are run. If you don't like it, vote with your feet - Leave.
Don't complain about the way the workers run people's lives. If you don't like it - Leave.
Pointing out that some friends get special treatment and people are shunned accomplishes nothing. If you are not happy - Leave.
If you think most workers are child molesters and the ones that are not are covering for those who are and the goal of the elders is to visit women and cop a feel perhaps this is not the club for you. If you really feel this way - Leave.
If you only want to complain endlessly about all of these things to the people who have decided to stay then you shouldn't be surprised when people no longer seek out your company. You may have overstayed your welcome and perhaps should leave.
The choice is yours. If you are not getting anything from being a member then why would you stay?
People stay in situations as long as what they get out of if is greater than the loss they will realize from leaving.
As an adult you can make that decision.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 7:52:50 GMT -5
WildDaze: If you are not happy with your spouse, just leave, get a divorce. Tired of your job, don't like the boss? Just quit. Family member not getting along with you? Never talk to them again. If life were only so simple. Sure, you see the church as a social club so you may categorize it differently. However, most people in the church don't see it that way, they see it as the only way and some even see it more important than family and job. There's the rub. Remove the aspect of religion. This is a club, if you will. There are leaders and members. There are rules. You join the club and agree to the rules. If you do not follow the rules you are asked change or to leave. A few points: 1) If you do not want to follow the rules do you really want to be in this club? 2) If you think the leaders are wrong do you want to be in this club? 3) If you no longer believe what the leaders say then why do you care what they say is going to happen to you once you have been asked to leave? You have some options: 1) If you don't think this club is right for you, start your own. 2) Join another club that you feel is right for you. 3) Don't join another club and live your own life. I read pages and pages of people complaining about things and how they are run. If you don't like it, vote with your feet - Leave. Don't complain about the way the workers run people's lives. If you don't like it - Leave. Pointing out that some friends get special treatment and people are shunned accomplishes nothing. If you are not happy - Leave. If you think most workers are child molesters and the ones that are not are covering for those who are and the goal of the elders is to visit women and cop a feel perhaps this is not the club for you. If you really feel this way - Leave. If you only want to complain endlessly about all of these things to the people who have decided to stay then you shouldn't be surprised when people no longer seek out your company. You may have overstayed your welcome and perhaps should leave. The choice is yours. If you are not getting anything from being a member then why would you stay? People stay in situations as long as what they get out of if is greater than the loss they will realize from leaving. As an adult you can make that decision.
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Post by Ways Around It on Oct 23, 2007 8:22:00 GMT -5
They don't need to have excommunications anymore. There are other ways around it. ---
If you fall out of their favor they start to shun you.
No one will talk much with you at potlucks.
They walk away from you at conventions.
They don't invite you to the special gatherings and then tell you they could not get in touch with you.-You find out from others that they received telephone calls and were told in meetings which you were at.
The workers skip you during visit times.
The Emails to the friends you have been sharing for a long time stop being replied to.
You are made to feel unwelcome plain and simple.
There is never a serious discussion of what or why this is happening to you. It is ignored just as you are.
So then you now feel unwelcome and then get the message. You just stop going to meetings. There was no attempt to edify you or lift you up.
What were your sins? Thinking out side of the Box.
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Silly Unbiblical Rules
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Post by Silly Unbiblical Rules on Oct 23, 2007 8:40:02 GMT -5
True Story
So there is this young professing couple dating. They cannot abstain so hence, A child is created. They go to God and pray of the situation. They loving each other, tell of the situation. They recieve a blessing from parents.
They Get married.
Now it would appear that their going to God and getting married was not enough-yet they did exactly what the bible commands them to do.
So then Worker (Barry Longhurst) visits with the new couple and father of one. He tells them that (well you know we ask that they refrain from taking part for 6 months, This is what we do in situations like this you know-- It really is not nothing bad about them and perhaps not exactly right but this is just what we do)
No to create disharmony it was just accepted. Now tell me --
Is this not a silly unbiblical rule---Does it do more damage to the new couple then good. In reality the Church should have given their blessings.
Ps:130:3: If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 8:52:03 GMT -5
This is a common practice in most areas. The purpose is so that the workers can communicate to others that they do not condone premarital sex. It's a wrong way about it though. If workers want to communicate their opposition to premarital sex, they should do it themselves and not force young people to do it for them. At least BL made an attempt to keep it from getting personal toward that young couple as much as possible. Some workers will simply come in an lay out the punishment with little care for the sensitivities of the young parents who will undoubtedly be having plenty of difficulties to be struggling with at the time. Since workers have never been married, they have no idea how challenging the first year of marriage is without having the additional burden of being put into the stocks publicly and being made a mockery of. True Story So there is this young professing couple dating. They cannot abstain so hence, A child is created. They go to God and pray of the situation. They loving each other, tell of the situation. They recieve a blessing from parents. They Get married. Now it would appear that their going to God and getting married was not enough-yet they did exactly what the bible commands them to do. So then Worker (Barry Longhurst) visits with the new couple and father of one. He tells them that (well you know we ask that they refrain from taking part for 6 months, This is what we do in situations like this you know-- It really is not nothing bad about them and perhaps not exactly right but this is just what we do) No to create disharmony it was just accepted. Now tell me -- Is this not a silly unbiblical rule---Does it do more damage to the new couple then good. In reality the Church should have given their blessings.Ps:130:3: If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
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Post by WildDaze on Oct 23, 2007 9:10:53 GMT -5
WildDaze: If you are not happy with your spouse, just leave, get a divorce. Marriage is not an organization that people join. On the other hand, if you cannot work out a situation with your spouse then perhaps it is time to leave the marriage. People change. Your Jewish wife has converted to Christianity. You try to keep a kosher household but come home and she is serving the children pork. Should you stay in a loveless relationship? Should you try to raise children in an atmosphere of hate? Exactly. Do you advocate going to work everyday at a place you hate? I started a job once and by noon knew that I would be unhappy working there and there was nothing I could do to change the working situation. I was done by 12:30. I guess I could have stayed and complained about by job and boss to everyone who I could trap into listening and vent my frustration by kicking the dog but there are other jobs. Ones that I liked. Companies whose philosophy I agreed with. Exactly. There are some family members with whom we have very little in common. We tend not to drink to excess and to the best of my knowledge I have never been drunk enough to cause extensive damage to a family members home and end up face down on their bed in a pool of vomit. After the second time this happened we decide not to interact with them in the future. If they call (usually to ask for money, I will talk to them and even wire money but other than that we do not interact with them. Life is simple. You just need to be able to make the decisions. The physical church is a social club. The spiritual side is between you and God. If you think the workers are molesting children and covering it up why would you want to listen to when they have to say about saving your soul? Then they should stick with that church. If they are placing that much emphasis on the form of their religion then they are in the right place. If they believe it is the only way then their desire to change it into a different way doesn't make any sense. Yes, there it is. They feel that the social aspect of their religion is more important than the spiritual side. They worry about the loss if they change to a different church. I have looked at the Catholic Church. There are things I do not believe. I am not a Catholic. There are things I saw in the F&W that I did not believe to be true. I am no longer a member. It does not make either church evil.
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Post by Games UP on Oct 23, 2007 9:39:16 GMT -5
This is a common practice in most areas. The purpose is so that the workers can communicate to others that they do not condone premarital sex. It's a wrong way about it though. If workers want to communicate their opposition to premarital sex, they should do it themselves and not force young people to do it for them. At least BL made an attempt to keep it from getting personal toward that young couple as much as possible. Some workers will simply come in an lay out the punishment with little care for the sensitivities of the young parents who will undoubtedly be having plenty of difficulties to be struggling with at the time. Since workers have never been married, they have no idea how challenging the first year of marriage is without having the additional burden of being put into the stocks publicly and being made a mockery of. True Story So there is this young professing couple dating. They cannot abstain so hence, A child is created. They go to God and pray of the situation. They loving each other, tell of the situation. They recieve a blessing from parents. They Get married. Now it would appear that their going to God and getting married was not enough-yet they did exactly what the bible commands them to do. So then Worker (Barry Longhurst) visits with the new couple and father of one. He tells them that (well you know we ask that they refrain from taking part for 6 months, This is what we do in situations like this you know-- It really is not nothing bad about them and perhaps not exactly right but this is just what we do) No to create disharmony it was just accepted. Now tell me -- Is this not a silly unbiblical rule---Does it do more damage to the new couple then good. In reality the Church should have given their blessings.Ps:130:3: If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?The games up by the time BL spoke to them. They (the couple already took the issue before the Throne of God in prayer) They were already married when BL sanctioned them. I would say that BL and the collective (this is just what we do) was totally off the bean-since they were already married. Branding them in meeting was totally wrong and has no biblical basis. Where in scripture does it say that they should be marked or branded like this? Where in scripture does it say that they may not give the fruits of their testimony to God? They have corrected before all eyes to including God for their weakness of the flesh.
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Post by las logged out on Oct 23, 2007 10:13:44 GMT -5
My former 2x2 elder in Nipawin Sk told me he says we do not excommunicate...but the fact is 2x2s sure do excommunicate it is a termonology proble with the 2x2s they just cannot take responsibility
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 16:45:51 GMT -5
quote - "My former 2x2 elder in Nipawin Sk told me he says we do not excommunicate...but the fact is 2x2s sure do excommunicate it is a termonology proble with the 2x2s they just cannot take responsibility"
I take responsibility, las. Excommunication, as I understand it, is or was a device used by the Catholic Church to consign people to hell. As "Christ's vicar on earth," the Pope thought he had this power. What that elder probably meant is that we can ask someone to leave the church for this or that reason. But we don't say that person is unable to return.
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Post by las logged out on Oct 23, 2007 20:11:57 GMT -5
quote - "My former 2x2 elder in Nipawin Sk told me he says we do not excommunicate...but the fact is 2x2s sure do excommunicate it is a termonology proble with the 2x2s they just cannot take responsibility" I take responsibility, las. Excommunication, as I understand it, is or was a device used by the Catholic Church to consign people to hell. As "Christ's vicar on earth," the Pope thought he had this power. What that elder probably meant is that we can ask someone to leave the church for this or that reason. But we don't say that person is unable to return.
O.K Bert I stand to be corrected on a bit of termonology So what do 2x2s do?Are you saying that no 2x2 was put out
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2007 20:32:32 GMT -5
It's true that the word "excommunicate" has been, well, excommunicated amongst f&ws in western North America. Seems that is true in Oz too according to bert. What they have done is tried to eliminate any appropriate words for "kicked out". Most people are too polite to use the word "kicked out", so there is really no standard word amongst f&ws to describe this. "Disfellowshiped" made a start but seems to have lost its use as well. "Put out" is an old term that has also lost much of its use. By not using "excommunicate" and other appropriate words for removing someone from the church, it creates an illusion that we don't do it. It's an interesting lesson in crowd control by language. Unfortunately bert, we do regularly close the door for people to come back in, and that includes Oz. Anyone whom we do put out and want back, we let them know what the conditions are for coming back. For those whom we cast out and want them to stay out, we refuse to spell out the conditions for coming back, no matter how vigorously they ask. If you want to talk to some of these permanently disfellowshiped people bert, I'll be glad to refer you to several. quote - "My former 2x2 elder in Nipawin Sk told me he says we do not excommunicate...but the fact is 2x2s sure do excommunicate it is a termonology proble with the 2x2s they just cannot take responsibility" I take responsibility, las. Excommunication, as I understand it, is or was a device used by the Catholic Church to consign people to hell. As "Christ's vicar on earth," the Pope thought he had this power. What that elder probably meant is that we can ask someone to leave the church for this or that reason. But we don't say that person is unable to return.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 3:35:18 GMT -5
Clearday, I fit perfectly into the category that you describe. I would like to take this opportunity to publicly thank God for being treated in such a manner, because even though I had spent a number of years being tossed about with various difficulties in life and getting no empathy or interest from workers, etc, I always made up or listened to convenient excuses to explain things away.
By coming up against the proverbial brick wall as it were, I was forced to think the unthinkable and question the unquestionable. I know there are many like me, even continuing in the fellowship.
What we need are more people like Kathy Lewis who kick us so hard up the backside it gets our brains back into our heads, so that we can start the real process of thinking for ourselves.
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