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Post by Sylvestra on Oct 18, 2007 11:29:17 GMT -5
I'm starting a new thread here Edy:
I have some questions for you about a topic that I really don't understand, so I hope you'll bear with me. I think I remember from previous posts that you are a believer in some degree of Calvinist doctrine. And from what I've read, that means that God chooses who he chooses, and nothing we do (including serving Him) is of our own choosing. We're either saved or not, and if we are saved it's because God chose us. And if we are saved, we will thus be moved to obey Him because of His unstoppable power. If any of this is incorrect, please let me know.
So I'm wondering how missionary work fits into this equation... those who are saved are already saved because God chose them.
Please forgive my ignorance and my scant knowledge on this subject.
I also have a very obvious question... doesn't everyone assume that they are part of the Chosen?You're correct in understanding my belief about the power of God being unstoppable. It is my feeling that once you are chosen, you may as well give in without a fight In the context of my belief about this, missionary work is still important because a person has a process leading up to salvation. First they must recognize that Jesus existed (and exists), who he is, and what he has done for ALL mankind. Then they must look at their own life and feel a need to repent and avail themselves of the sacrifice that Jesus made for us. The missionary work is helpful in this process. After salvation takes place in their lives, it is a wonderful, growing process toward becoming "filled with Christ" and fellowship and bible reading are a part of that. There are times when God speaks directly to individuals and there is no need for the missionary experience. (Good examples in the OT (Abraham, Moses, etc.), but Paul and John "the revelator" is an excellent example in the NT) As far as everyone assuming they are part of the "chosen", well....I think diet coke doesn't assume that from his post. HOWEVER, I would ask "chosen for what"? From my understanding, being "chosen" is different than being "saved". The "chosen" are those God is preparing for leadership in the next age. I think it is tragic that people believe that anyone that isn't "chosen" will go to an eternal torture (or eternal silence, or icy cold, or tumbling through space -- or whatever else!) I go again to I Cor. 3:10-15. ( GIT you never did answer my last question to you in regard to these verses!) These chosen are those who will be first to be raised and their bodies will be the first to be changed when Christ returns to us! The rest of the saved will be raised at the end of the 1,000 years. Best regards! Edy
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Post by juliette on Oct 18, 2007 11:34:29 GMT -5
Edy: Thanks for the explanation! So if I understand correctly, in eternity there will be three basic types of people
1) The chosen (who are also saved). God chose them from the beginning and they had no power to resist him. 2) The saved (who chose to believe in God and follow him) 3) The unsaved (those who were not chosen and who chose not to believe)
Is this correct? OR
I think I may have heard before that there's a scenario where there is no eternal damnation... only variations of rewards. The chosen get the greatest reward, but all end up being saved?
Sorry for my crude analysis...
Thanks! Juli
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Post by Brick on Oct 18, 2007 20:47:21 GMT -5
Thanks, Edy. I'm not sure I can exactly wrap my brain around these ideas or not, but thanks for explaining.
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Post by my2cents on Oct 19, 2007 11:31:50 GMT -5
What category do the people that have never heard or have never been taught about Jesus and are not chosen by God fall in to? I think the Catholic faith believes that God can lead people to heaven that have not had the opportunity to know Christ and that Gods love & mercy is not limited by our understanding.
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3
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Post by 3 on Oct 19, 2007 11:56:04 GMT -5
Good question, m2cents.
While I was a 2x2 and then a christian, I had an annoying question that was always in the back of my mind, clamouring for attention:
Since the gospel would 'someday spread to the 4 corners of the earth' (as preached from the platform) I knew there was no way on God's green earth that workers could canvas every hill & valley, desert, or island in the world Obviously there would be humans never exposed to Jesus, the one who one needs to know & accept or otherwise end up in a lost eternity. What happens to these innocent people?
The workers would say, 'well if a person has an honest, seeking heart, God will send the workers across his/her pathway'.
There are pockets of civilization that are so incredibly remote we know there is no way christianity will find these people. What happens to them - eternally speaking?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2007 12:13:08 GMT -5
I take Jesus' words that ''many are called, few are chosen" quite literally and at face value. I think God does choose a few, but like diet coke, I don't feel I am one of the chosen. However, I definitely sense being called and would like to think that I have at least partially responded to the call.
Examples of chosen people would be John the Baptist, perhaps all the 12 disciples, and Saul/Paul. Most people however, are simply given the call to repent and put God first, and it is up to them whether or not to respond positively to the call.
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Post by juliette on Oct 19, 2007 21:59:05 GMT -5
So being "chosen" simply means being one of the elite... the leadership types?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2007 0:09:11 GMT -5
If you are asking me juliette, I don't know the answer to that. If God desires to chose someone for some or any purpose so be it. It's his perogative not mine. So being "chosen" simply means being one of the elite... the leadership types?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2007 6:39:57 GMT -5
Posted by juliette on Yesterday at 9:59pm
So being "chosen" simply means being one of the elite... the leadership types?
Certainly the 12 Apostles could be considered amongst the elite since they will be sitting on the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. However, unless I am mistaken, are not all believers to have "judging roles ?"
The world as a whole needs people who possess leadership qualities and the "church of God" is no exception to this. Nevertheless, I like to think those who are chosen to fulfill special roles or have leadership qualities are really meant to be real examples in being "servants of all !"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2007 7:06:01 GMT -5
I agree ram. Churches need a lot less leadership and a lot more feedership. Posted by juliette on Yesterday at 9:59pm
So being "chosen" simply means being one of the elite... the leadership types?
Certainly the 12 Apostles could be considered amongst the elite since they will be sitting on the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. However, unless I am mistaken, are not all believers to have "judging roles ?" The world as a whole needs people who possess leadership qualities and the "church of God" is no exception to this. Nevertheless, I like to think those who are chosen to fulfill special roles or have leadership qualities are really meant to be real examples in being "servants of all !"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2007 8:15:20 GMT -5
Churches need a lot less leadership and a lot more feedership.
Clearday, I'm going to save that one for appropriate occasions, even though it does have a ring of 2x2ism to it !
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2007 14:13:47 GMT -5
ram, I can assure you it's an original. I think it's a little ditty that could be appropriate in any church setting. In fact, I think non-2x2 churches are fairly focused on leadership, perhaps too much sometimes? Our church actually resembles dictatorship more than leadership. Churches need a lot less leadership and a lot more feedership.Clearday, I'm going to save that one for appropriate occasions, even though it does have a ring of 2x2ism to it !
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2007 15:55:42 GMT -5
Hi Clearday, many thanks. I understood it to be original, however, as you will no doubt appreciate, I had heard so many such ditties during my professing years you could almost say they were a big part of our doctrine. It was this context that I was trying to convey (not very well ?). Yes, your little ditty could (and should) apply to any church. After all, Jesus applied it in similar terms to Peter after his resurrection.
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Post by Sylvestra on Oct 20, 2007 16:09:17 GMT -5
Edy: Thanks for the explanation! So if I understand correctly, in eternity there will be three basic types of people 1) The chosen (who are also saved). God chose them from the beginning and they had no power to resist him. 2) The saved (who chose to believe in God and follow him) 3) The unsaved (those who were not chosen and who chose not to believe) Is this correct? OR I think I may have heard before that there's a scenario where there is no eternal damnation... only variations of rewards. The chosen get the greatest reward, but all end up being saved? Sorry for my crude analysis... Thanks! Juli Juliette, You're a gettin' close to what I mean I believe we are ALL predestined to where God wants us not just the chosen. The "chosen" (overcomers) mentioned in some places in the NT, are those who will rule with Him for 1,000 years (they aren't "leadership" ya'all, they are in "servitude" positions! They will be there to serve at our LORD's command and to serve people as He wishes.) People (in #2 above), don't "choose" for themselves to serve God now, he chooses them. People (in #3 above), the unsaved, aren't banished into eternal torment, but will be tried according to God's Law (the "fiery word of God" - which is always simply put, correction) and will pay restitution or be punished according to their crimes in this life. (An eye for an eye - which simply means that the punishment fits the crime.) There is NOWHERE in God's Holy Scripture that makes eternal torment fit ANY AMOUNT of crime! (That would be totally against God's Law!) That is what the Jubilee is for. The Bible tells us that sin is reckoned as "debt", and some may have lots of debt, but none will have debt enough to pay in torment for all eternity. Ever man has his own jubilee when he is released from all his debt. There are many books written about this (pro and con), but my favorite is available to read on line! It's called "Creations Jubilee". gods-kingdom-ministries.org/CreationsJub/CJ_index.htmlThis also answers the questions asked about those who never have had an opportunity to hear the Gospel of Salvation or the Gospel of the Kingdom, or even have a Bible. Not to worry, they are in the plans too! Best! Edy
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Post by juliette on Oct 20, 2007 18:34:38 GMT -5
Edy:
Thanks for your patience... it's getting clearer. A few more questions....
1) So anyone who truly believes in God right now was chosen? 2) So no one who wasn't chosen serves God of their own free will? 3) So those who weren't chosen all must be tried according to God's law and pay for their sins? 4) If my #3 statement was correct, then Jesus only died to save the chosen? 5) Will those who weren't chosen only pay according to their crimes? So some people will pay worse and longer?
Thanks! Juli
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tulip2
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Post by tulip2 on Oct 21, 2007 8:28:36 GMT -5
hi can I butt in? I wrote a response to you Juli on that other thread "Ed's got a new job or whatever". But it sank without trace, so here it is again. Been enjoying yours Ed, thx. Edy: I have some questions for you about a topic that I really don't understand, so I hope you'll bear with me. I think I remember from previous posts that you are a believer in some degree of Calvinist doctrine. And from what I've read, that means that God chooses who he chooses, and nothing we do (including serving Him) is of our own choosing. We're either saved or not, and if we are saved it's because God chose us. And if we are saved, we will thus be moved to obey Him because of His unstoppable power. If any of this is incorrect, please let me know. So I'm wondering how missionary work fits into this equation... those who are saved are already saved because God chose them. Please forgive my ignorance and my scant knowledge on this subject. I also have a very obvious question... doesn't everyone assume that they are part of the Chosen? Juliette, good questions and topic, almost deserves a thread of its own. [and now Edy's given it one!] Here's just a few spontaneous responses. It's a pity (I think) that this doctrine is associated with a man's name (even one as significant in the reformation as Calvin - great Christian leader that he was). It makes it too easy for opponents (you know who they are!) to discredit. In reality, Calvin simply 'discovered' (by revelation no doubt) what Paul had also had revealed as he wrote his scripture (eg. letter to the Romans). So in effect, what many call 'Calvinism' is simply teaching or expounding on what God tells us in his word. In Romans ch's 8-11 especially. Here's one bit from Romans 8: 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. There are 5 steps here. Like links in a chain, each one follows the other. Start at the first step (those God foreknows), and God's word tells us that you progress through each step ending in God's glorification ("well done" perhaps). Incredible promise! God 'foreknows', then 'predestines' (to be conformed to the likeness of Christ, the purpose in creation - to function in God's image). Then God calls. Then justifies the sinner. And finally, inexorably, the step of glorification. This is not Calvin's 'ideas' it's what God is telling us. I don't feel by us believing what God explicitly says here, leads to a conclusion that what we do, our choices, doesn't matter. Calvin never believed that, Paul clearly didn't and nor need we. Accepting that God predestines and chooses some (for what reason? beyond our knowing) doesn't remove our responsibility (scripture is clear on this too). Both go hand in hand. Just our simple minds, our limited perspective, so easily lead us away from God's perspective & truth. The reality is God is sovereign, He chooses who He will. But I don't believe He's unjust in this.. after all, the first step is based on God 'foreknowing' us. I think this means a lot more than what we understand by 'knowing'. When God knows something (ie. us) He really knows it, better than even us, to the absolute nth degree. So, God's sovereign choice is based on a complete knowledge (eg. of how we will act and behave, of our character) before we're even formed. None of that is to say in any way that anything in scripture suggests that we who are chosen, called, elect are somehow better or worthier, or ( quelle horreur) deserving in any way. Paul explains that by reference to God loving Jacob and hating Esau.. even before they were born. (Romans 9:9-15) It's all to do with God's sovereignty, he is King over all creation and does as he chooses. Without any need to explain it to us (likely impossible for us to understand anyway). God choosing some and not others is not a new thought that pops up in the NT, of course he chose the nation of Israel to be his special people from the beginning. All through scripture we can see God exercising his sovereign choice (and like most of the chosen Jews, we are often the bad people!) Often when we apply our human reasoning, this can all seem so unfair. We think ALL should have EQUAL opportunity. But we are not seeing it from God's perspective. And most significant of all, we are not on the throne in heaven. God's foreknowledge and choosing doesn't detract from our individual responsibility to live like Christ, in fact it's the purpose behind it. And my feeling is, if we ignore this scriptural truth we actually miss a significant part of the power to be like Christ. My experience is that embracing this, Calvinism if you like, is empowering. We are left in awe of a sovereign and all wise God. As Paul says emphatically right at the end of Romans ch.11 (vv.33-36). And incidentally, Calvin's church in Geneva was one of the great evangelising churches of the reformation. Embracing the truths that Paul writes about in this regard (Calvinism if you like) actually encourages missionary work. Because that is part of God's call to his elect. There's something wonderful in all this, beyond our reasoning. But so worthwhile because it teaches us about God, his character. Which after all is the purpose behind it all, the purpose of salvation, that we can develop a relationship with God, really start to know and understand Him. And discover just how great, awesome He really is. And that is empowering! Great topic, great bible truths.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2007 8:54:37 GMT -5
Interesting assertions tulip2 but very complicated. It's little wonder to me that Juli keeps asking more questions as I too find myself reading what you wrote and discover as many questions as answers. I have no problem with the concept of "sovereign choice", but this "Calvinist" doctrine seems to assert that only those who are specially selected by God can be saved, the rest are doomed. Inversely, it seems to assert that there are some who are fatally doomed to eternity in hell, such as Esau (perhaps Judas too?) and nothing can change the outcome. It seems clear to me that God desires that none will perish, and in that sentiment, God's predestined plan for all mankind is that they would all, without exception, come to repentence and begin eternity with Him starting today. It seems evil to predestine someone to hell, surely God is not capable of such evil? hi can I butt in? I wrote a response to you Juli on that other thread "Ed's got a new job or whatever". But it sank without trace, so here it is again. Been enjoying yours Ed, thx. Edy: I have some questions for you about a topic that I really don't understand, so I hope you'll bear with me. I think I remember from previous posts that you are a believer in some degree of Calvinist doctrine. And from what I've read, that means that God chooses who he chooses, and nothing we do (including serving Him) is of our own choosing. We're either saved or not, and if we are saved it's because God chose us. And if we are saved, we will thus be moved to obey Him because of His unstoppable power. If any of this is incorrect, please let me know. So I'm wondering how missionary work fits into this equation... those who are saved are already saved because God chose them. Please forgive my ignorance and my scant knowledge on this subject. I also have a very obvious question... doesn't everyone assume that they are part of the Chosen? Juliette, good questions and topic, almost deserves a thread of its own. [and now Edy's given it one!] Here's just a few spontaneous responses. It's a pity (I think) that this doctrine is associated with a man's name (even one as significant in the reformation as Calvin - great Christian leader that he was). It makes it too easy for opponents (you know who they are!) to discredit. In reality, Calvin simply 'discovered' (by revelation no doubt) what Paul had also had revealed as he wrote his scripture (eg. letter to the Romans). So in effect, what many call 'Calvinism' is simply teaching or expounding on what God tells us in his word. In Romans ch's 8-11 especially. Here's one bit from Romans 8: 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. There are 5 steps here. Like links in a chain, each one follows the other. Start at the first step (those God foreknows), and God's word tells us that you progress through each step ending in God's glorification ("well done" perhaps). Incredible promise! God 'foreknows', then 'predestines' (to be conformed to the likeness of Christ, the purpose in creation - to function in God's image). Then God calls. Then justifies the sinner. And finally, inexorably, the step of glorification. This is not Calvin's 'ideas' it's what God is telling us. I don't feel by us believing what God explicitly says here, leads to a conclusion that what we do, our choices, doesn't matter. Calvin never believed that, Paul clearly didn't and nor need we. Accepting that God predestines and chooses some (for what reason? beyond our knowing) doesn't remove our responsibility (scripture is clear on this too). Both go hand in hand. Just our simple minds, our limited perspective, so easily lead us away from God's perspective & truth. The reality is God is sovereign, He chooses who He will. But I don't believe He's unjust in this.. after all, the first step is based on God 'foreknowing' us. I think this means a lot more than what we understand by 'knowing'. When God knows something (ie. us) He really knows it, better than even us, to the absolute nth degree. So, God's sovereign choice is based on a complete knowledge (eg. of how we will act and behave, of our character) before we're even formed. None of that is to say in any way that anything in scripture suggests that we who are chosen, called, elect are somehow better or worthier, or ( quelle horreur) deserving in any way. Paul explains that by reference to God loving Jacob and hating Esau.. even before they were born. (Romans 9:9-15) It's all to do with God's sovereignty, he is King over all creation and does as he chooses. Without any need to explain it to us (likely impossible for us to understand anyway). God choosing some and not others is not a new thought that pops up in the NT, of course he chose the nation of Israel to be his special people from the beginning. All through scripture we can see God exercising his sovereign choice (and like most of the chosen Jews, we are often the bad people!) Often when we apply our human reasoning, this can all seem so unfair. We think ALL should have EQUAL opportunity. But we are not seeing it from God's perspective. And most significant of all, we are not on the throne in heaven. God's foreknowledge and choosing doesn't detract from our individual responsibility to live like Christ, in fact it's the purpose behind it. And my feeling is, if we ignore this scriptural truth we actually miss a significant part of the power to be like Christ. My experience is that embracing this, Calvinism if you like, is empowering. We are left in awe of a sovereign and all wise God. As Paul says emphatically right at the end of Romans ch.11 (vv.33-36). And incidentally, Calvin's church in Geneva was one of the great evangelising churches of the reformation. Embracing the truths that Paul writes about in this regard (Calvinism if you like) actually encourages missionary work. Because that is part of God's call to his elect. There's something wonderful in all this, beyond our reasoning. But so worthwhile because it teaches us about God, his character. Which after all is the purpose behind it all, the purpose of salvation, that we can develop a relationship with God, really start to know and understand Him. And discover just how great, awesome He really is. And that is empowering! Great topic, great bible truths.
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