Post by gloryintruth on Oct 15, 2007 7:49:24 GMT -5
I would be thrilled if even one exe would acknowledge that within denominational religion, and especially within modern evangelicalism, there are problems. I have been stunned - utterly shocked - to see a total inability of exes to face up to this reality. The attitude so far has been: "We will concede no ground. We will acknowledge no sin. We will continue to claim that scandals, gimmickry, and abuses are isolated examples."
The very same behaviours for which the Friends are villified on this forum! This is NOT honesty. This is NOT facing up to the truth and to the facts about reality. And it is plain ungodly to remain silent when asked about these issues, or worse, to obfuscate, wriggle and twist in an effort to evade the issue.
Below are some articles I found when surfing the net in relation to these issues. I recommend them as evidence (you know, that weird thing I keep talking about called "proof" which so many exes have no conception of - preferring to spout pure BS instead).
Mega money scandals should push churches toward better policies (4/9/2007 - Recent September article!)
www.churchcentral.com/nw/s/template/Article.html/id/24580/printable/yes
Pastor's Wife scared to death of new ministry style
www.biblefortoday.org/bennett/Articles/bonsai.htm
Though Rick Warren's program for church growth is very popular with pastors all over the world, the following are points of concern: 1) Independent Baptist churches are following the lead of Southern Baptist churches. The Southern Baptist Convention is unashamedly committed to New Evangelicalism or worse. 2) Rick Warren did not invent his program for church growth, but learned it from Robert Schuller, the pastor of the Crystal Cathedral. Christianity Today (11/08/2002) describes Rick Warren's involvement with Schuller saying, "During his last year in seminary, he and Kay drove west to visit Robert Schuller's Institute for Church Growth. ‘We had a very stony ride out to the conference,’ (Kay) said, because such nontraditional ministry scared her to death. Schuller, though, won them over. ‘He had a profound influence on Rick,’ Kay says. ‘We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back.’" 3) Schuller has for many years preached the false gospel of self esteem. 4) Schuller's church growth program is built upon his false gospel. 5) His false gospel is a part of what he calls "possibility thinking". 6) Robert Schuller states openly that he learned his possibility thinking from Norman Vincent Peale. 7) Peale was greatly influenced by the notorious modernist, Harry Emerson Fosdick.
The Church Growth Movement An Analysis of Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven" Church Growth Strategy
www.moriel.org/discernment/purpose_driven_church.htm
AFTER PERSONALLY covering the Saddleback Community Church "Building a Purpose-Driven Church" seminar held in Southern California this past January, it became clear to me that some of today's most influential religious leaders misunderstand and misrepresent the true purpose of the church today. Dr. Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Community Church and director of the "Building a Purpose-Driven Church" workshops, has influenced thousands of churches during the last decade that are interested in the "Church Growth Movement." Without doubt, every church in the United States must give, or has already had to give, an answer to the strategies of building a superchurch. Sadly, many have already jumped on board. The possibility of dynamic growth for struggling churches, especially old-fashioned, Bible-believing, Bible-preaching fundamental churches, is tremendously appealing. However, it is imperative to ask this question: "What actually must be done in order to accomplish dynamic church growth?" We must warn about Rick Warren's unbiblical answer to that question.
Purpose Driven
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Warren
Over 400,000 pastors and church leaders from around the world have attended a seminar or conference led by Warren and other pastors who share best practices as they seek to be more effective in fulfilling the Great Commission and the Great Commandment. The term Purpose Driven refers to these pastors' attempt to balance the five purposes of Worship, Fellowship, Discipleship, Ministry, and Evangelism in their churches. Saddleback Church also started a non-profit web-site PurposeDriven.com to help communicate and coordinate the community.
Over the years, Christian leaders in 162 countries have used materials which stem from this movement. Through this organization over 400,000 ministers and priests have been trained worldwide in his theology and practical methods. 189,000 church leaders subscribe to Ministry Toolbox, the weekly newsletter.
[And some would say that Bert and I have no idea about "normal Christian churches" because we describe the church growth phenomena. Oh, that's not right! It's isolated! Such people have committed themselves to a sinking vessel.]
Church Growth Software
www.churchgrowthsoftware.com
Church Growth Software is a purpose driven church management software that ... rapid, healthy growth -- and not be among the 70%-80% of new church plants that [fail]...
As I continued to surf on this topic, I found recent stories - testimonies - of people who have become very disillusioned and starved by the contemporary church movement, and by modern forms of evangelicalism. The drums, the upbeat music, the happy-clappy performances have left them hungry for something more real.
I have found websites promoting "cool churches" and "cool worship". I have found lists of the "100 most exciting churches in x, y, z country". I have found churches advertising themselves with the term, "Exciting".
Get a load of this quote:
Contemporary worship can take on a variety of styles, from jazz to rock to bluegrass to (heaven forbid!) country-western. For me, a worship service that used country music would be closer to hell than heaven, but it's exactly what is needed for some folks. The pitfall is thinking that 'contemporary' always equals Rick Muchow style music. There are lots of ways to be with the times - there are even some contemporary services based on ancient Celtic liturgies, which promotes a reflective/contemplative atmosphere rather than a teaching/celebratory atmosphere. Others have abandoned sermons in favor of "truth nuggets" that are interspersed throughout the service. These nuggets come in the form of media clips, short commentaries, and short reflections projected onto a screen. When it comes to being contemporary, the possibilities are endless. This means that you need to look at every aspect of your worship service, including: style of music, length and type of sermon, order and flow of the service, incorporating other worship elements (drama, dance, multi-media), smells, lighting, dress, how music is led (praise teams are usually not the best option), etc. I know it's a lot of work, but it's really best to not just copy what someone else is doing. Instead, think through it and understand what the totally unique solution is for your totally unique situation.
I have even found church websites which list NONE of their beliefs, but advertise "Hallelujah Day" and the "Ladies Annual Retreat" and a whole bunch of other superfluous stuff to the real issue of being a disciple.
I have said this to professing people in the past, and I will say it again:
If you think that true worship involves reverence and quiet, and reading extensively from the word of God, and if you believe that it is incredibly important to handle the word of God properly, and to obey it, and to hear a spoken message from the Spirit and from the Bible, then you should realise that we are now in the vast minority of what passes for Christianity today.
But then, Professing people are weird! They are misfits in the Christian world as much as in the worldly world. And I'm weird too. And I'm a misfit too. And we're all in this together, we're all involved in the wonder and glory of being a follower of Jesus Christ. I am even more convinced tonight that I am in God's true way.
The very same behaviours for which the Friends are villified on this forum! This is NOT honesty. This is NOT facing up to the truth and to the facts about reality. And it is plain ungodly to remain silent when asked about these issues, or worse, to obfuscate, wriggle and twist in an effort to evade the issue.
Below are some articles I found when surfing the net in relation to these issues. I recommend them as evidence (you know, that weird thing I keep talking about called "proof" which so many exes have no conception of - preferring to spout pure BS instead).
Mega money scandals should push churches toward better policies (4/9/2007 - Recent September article!)
www.churchcentral.com/nw/s/template/Article.html/id/24580/printable/yes
Pastor's Wife scared to death of new ministry style
www.biblefortoday.org/bennett/Articles/bonsai.htm
Though Rick Warren's program for church growth is very popular with pastors all over the world, the following are points of concern: 1) Independent Baptist churches are following the lead of Southern Baptist churches. The Southern Baptist Convention is unashamedly committed to New Evangelicalism or worse. 2) Rick Warren did not invent his program for church growth, but learned it from Robert Schuller, the pastor of the Crystal Cathedral. Christianity Today (11/08/2002) describes Rick Warren's involvement with Schuller saying, "During his last year in seminary, he and Kay drove west to visit Robert Schuller's Institute for Church Growth. ‘We had a very stony ride out to the conference,’ (Kay) said, because such nontraditional ministry scared her to death. Schuller, though, won them over. ‘He had a profound influence on Rick,’ Kay says. ‘We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back.’" 3) Schuller has for many years preached the false gospel of self esteem. 4) Schuller's church growth program is built upon his false gospel. 5) His false gospel is a part of what he calls "possibility thinking". 6) Robert Schuller states openly that he learned his possibility thinking from Norman Vincent Peale. 7) Peale was greatly influenced by the notorious modernist, Harry Emerson Fosdick.
The Church Growth Movement An Analysis of Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven" Church Growth Strategy
www.moriel.org/discernment/purpose_driven_church.htm
AFTER PERSONALLY covering the Saddleback Community Church "Building a Purpose-Driven Church" seminar held in Southern California this past January, it became clear to me that some of today's most influential religious leaders misunderstand and misrepresent the true purpose of the church today. Dr. Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Community Church and director of the "Building a Purpose-Driven Church" workshops, has influenced thousands of churches during the last decade that are interested in the "Church Growth Movement." Without doubt, every church in the United States must give, or has already had to give, an answer to the strategies of building a superchurch. Sadly, many have already jumped on board. The possibility of dynamic growth for struggling churches, especially old-fashioned, Bible-believing, Bible-preaching fundamental churches, is tremendously appealing. However, it is imperative to ask this question: "What actually must be done in order to accomplish dynamic church growth?" We must warn about Rick Warren's unbiblical answer to that question.
Purpose Driven
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Warren
Over 400,000 pastors and church leaders from around the world have attended a seminar or conference led by Warren and other pastors who share best practices as they seek to be more effective in fulfilling the Great Commission and the Great Commandment. The term Purpose Driven refers to these pastors' attempt to balance the five purposes of Worship, Fellowship, Discipleship, Ministry, and Evangelism in their churches. Saddleback Church also started a non-profit web-site PurposeDriven.com to help communicate and coordinate the community.
Over the years, Christian leaders in 162 countries have used materials which stem from this movement. Through this organization over 400,000 ministers and priests have been trained worldwide in his theology and practical methods. 189,000 church leaders subscribe to Ministry Toolbox, the weekly newsletter.
[And some would say that Bert and I have no idea about "normal Christian churches" because we describe the church growth phenomena. Oh, that's not right! It's isolated! Such people have committed themselves to a sinking vessel.]
Church Growth Software
www.churchgrowthsoftware.com
Church Growth Software is a purpose driven church management software that ... rapid, healthy growth -- and not be among the 70%-80% of new church plants that [fail]...
As I continued to surf on this topic, I found recent stories - testimonies - of people who have become very disillusioned and starved by the contemporary church movement, and by modern forms of evangelicalism. The drums, the upbeat music, the happy-clappy performances have left them hungry for something more real.
I have found websites promoting "cool churches" and "cool worship". I have found lists of the "100 most exciting churches in x, y, z country". I have found churches advertising themselves with the term, "Exciting".
Get a load of this quote:
Contemporary worship can take on a variety of styles, from jazz to rock to bluegrass to (heaven forbid!) country-western. For me, a worship service that used country music would be closer to hell than heaven, but it's exactly what is needed for some folks. The pitfall is thinking that 'contemporary' always equals Rick Muchow style music. There are lots of ways to be with the times - there are even some contemporary services based on ancient Celtic liturgies, which promotes a reflective/contemplative atmosphere rather than a teaching/celebratory atmosphere. Others have abandoned sermons in favor of "truth nuggets" that are interspersed throughout the service. These nuggets come in the form of media clips, short commentaries, and short reflections projected onto a screen. When it comes to being contemporary, the possibilities are endless. This means that you need to look at every aspect of your worship service, including: style of music, length and type of sermon, order and flow of the service, incorporating other worship elements (drama, dance, multi-media), smells, lighting, dress, how music is led (praise teams are usually not the best option), etc. I know it's a lot of work, but it's really best to not just copy what someone else is doing. Instead, think through it and understand what the totally unique solution is for your totally unique situation.
I have even found church websites which list NONE of their beliefs, but advertise "Hallelujah Day" and the "Ladies Annual Retreat" and a whole bunch of other superfluous stuff to the real issue of being a disciple.
I have said this to professing people in the past, and I will say it again:
If you think that true worship involves reverence and quiet, and reading extensively from the word of God, and if you believe that it is incredibly important to handle the word of God properly, and to obey it, and to hear a spoken message from the Spirit and from the Bible, then you should realise that we are now in the vast minority of what passes for Christianity today.
But then, Professing people are weird! They are misfits in the Christian world as much as in the worldly world. And I'm weird too. And I'm a misfit too. And we're all in this together, we're all involved in the wonder and glory of being a follower of Jesus Christ. I am even more convinced tonight that I am in God's true way.