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Post by a simple quiz on Oct 11, 2007 9:39:11 GMT -5
GIT, let's see how you do on this simple quiz.
#1. (True or False) William Irvine started the church you attend.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 11, 2007 10:49:12 GMT -5
if this is somehow meant to be derogatory, please share with us your church and who founded it, so we are on even ground.
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DietcokeBad for your health
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Post by DietcokeBad for your health on Oct 11, 2007 11:44:21 GMT -5
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Post by if then else on Oct 11, 2007 15:47:22 GMT -5
if this is somehow meant to be derogatory, please share with us your church and who founded it, so we are on even ground. It is not derogatory. It's a simple question.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 11, 2007 16:34:10 GMT -5
A diet Coke is better than a regular Pepsi anyday though.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 11, 2007 21:03:29 GMT -5
if-then-else, it's just not as simple a question as you seem to think it is. There are many levels on which the question can be answered.
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Post by is on Oct 11, 2007 21:25:51 GMT -5
if-then-else, it's just not as simple a question as you seem to think it is. There are many levels on which the question can be answered. Why does this bother you so? the question wasn't for you anyway
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 21:53:36 GMT -5
From the 2x2 History thread... unanswered. Hey GIT. Be careful of answering Yes or No questions - they are loaded. I include them in my threads from time to time, and they are rarely answered. Examples include:Unanswered question - Do you want to be different to those of the New Testament church who wrote and experienced all these things? Yes or No Unanswered question - Was Irvine right in believing the bible should be lived as it is written? Yes or No Unanswered question - Do you believe that ALL of the following teachings or examples left by Christ or by his apostles are applicable today? Yes or No Unanswered question - If you read a bible; apply the scripture to yourself; accept its literal instruction and change nothing - are you starting a church, or following one? Yes or No Unanswered question - If you take your new church, and add new things to it, and remove "old" things, are you still in that church, or have you just created a man-made church? Yes or No Unanswered question - The author of Hebrews exhorted his people to "remember them which have the rule over you." What did he mean? Unanswered question - You have two preachers: One says his church is from the beginning, and he sacrifices babies. The second preaches Christ, and he started yesterday. Who do you listen to? Unanswered question - Is the 2x2 itinerant ministry from God or man? Yes or No Unanswered question - Do you believe any church has the authority to change what is written in the bible? Yes or No Unanswered question - What does "traditions of men" mean in today's religious context? Unanswered question - Who started your own church, God or a man? Unanswered question - Imagine a rich mega-star televangelist with their own private jet. a - Should we reject the lowly way and become like them? b - Or should they become more like us?
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Post by ok bert on Oct 11, 2007 22:05:18 GMT -5
ok, bert. I'll bite. You answer the first question, and I'll answer one of yours.
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Post by aussiegal on Oct 11, 2007 22:07:14 GMT -5
Please note the below is IMO only.
Unanswered question - Do you want to be different to those of the New Testament church who wrote and experienced all these things? Yes or No Spiritually no
Unanswered question - Was Irvine right in believing the bible should be lived as it is written? Yes or No Spiritually yes... however keep in mind the bible was written a fair while after Jesus died (from my understanding of it)... and things can be misinterpreted.
Unanswered question - Do you believe that ALL of the following teachings or examples left by Christ or by his apostles are applicable today? Yes - spiritually
Unanswered question - If you read a bible; apply the scripture to yourself; accept its literal instruction and change nothing - are you starting a church, or following one? Yes or No neither if you are directed by God
Unanswered question - If you take your new church, and add new things to it, and remove "old" things, are you still in that church, or have you just created a man-made church? Yes or No
Unanswered question - The author of Hebrews exhorted his people to "remember them which have the rule over you." What did he mean? I will need to study this further before replying - sorry
Unanswered question - You have two preachers: One says his church is from the beginning, and he sacrifices babies. The second preaches Christ, and he started yesterday. Who do you listen to? Neither... it should be God that we pray to and take direction from... no man
Unanswered question - Is the 2x2 itinerant ministry from God or man? Yes or No Yes or no shouldn't be the answer... but I believe it's from a mans interpretation
Unanswered question - Do you believe any church has the authority to change what is written in the bible? Yes or No
Unanswered question - What does "traditions of men" mean in today's religious context? it means nothing... tradition should be separate from spiritual - it's the heart of man that God looks at... not the exterior IMO
Unanswered question - Who started your own church, God or a man? God is not in a church... God is in those that believe and accept Him.
Unanswered question - Imagine a rich mega-star televangelist with their own private jet. a - Should we reject the lowly way and become like them? b - Or should they become more like us? Do you mean spiritually? The only one that we should be like is Christ.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 22:26:34 GMT -5
quote - "ok, bert. I'll bite. You answer the first question, and I'll answer one of yours."
quote - "#1. True/False William Irvine started the church you attend."
False. No-one who obeys scripture can claim to have started it.
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Post by poorbert on Oct 12, 2007 2:01:35 GMT -5
From the 2x2 History thread... unanswered. Hey GIT. Be careful of answering Yes or No questions - they are loaded. I include them in my threads from time to time, and they are rarely answered. Examples include:Unanswered question - Do you want to be different to those of the New Testament church who wrote and experienced all these things? Yes or No Unanswered question - Was Irvine right in believing the bible should be lived as it is written? Yes or No Unanswered question - Do you believe that ALL of the following teachings or examples left by Christ or by his apostles are applicable today? Yes or No Unanswered question - If you read a bible; apply the scripture to yourself; accept its literal instruction and change nothing - are you starting a church, or following one? Yes or No Unanswered question - If you take your new church, and add new things to it, and remove "old" things, are you still in that church, or have you just created a man-made church? Yes or No Unanswered question - The author of Hebrews exhorted his people to "remember them which have the rule over you." What did he mean? Unanswered question - You have two preachers: One says his church is from the beginning, and he sacrifices babies. The second preaches Christ, and he started yesterday. Who do you listen to? Unanswered question - Is the 2x2 itinerant ministry from God or man? Yes or No Unanswered question - Do you believe any church has the authority to change what is written in the bible? Yes or No Unanswered question - What does "traditions of men" mean in today's religious context? Unanswered question - Who started your own church, God or a man? Unanswered question - Imagine a rich mega-star televangelist with their own private jet. a - Should we reject the lowly way and become like them? b - Or should they become more like us? HOW FUNNY THAT BERT WARNS GIT ABOUT LOADED QUESTIONS, THEN DOES NOTHING BUT ASK LOADED QUESTIONS HIMSELF! HOW FUNNY!
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 12, 2007 5:14:09 GMT -5
Wow, now if that isn't a "guest Bradley" post I dunno what is! ;D M.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2007 6:45:39 GMT -5
From the 2x2 History thread... unanswered. Hey GIT. Be careful of answering Yes or No questions - they are loaded. I include them in my threads from time to time, and they are rarely answered. Examples include:Unanswered question - Do you want to be different to those of the New Testament church who wrote and experienced all these things? Yes or No Unanswered question - Was Irvine right in believing the bible should be lived as it is written? Yes or No Unanswered question - Do you believe that ALL of the following teachings or examples left by Christ or by his apostles are applicable today? Yes or No Unanswered question - If you read a bible; apply the scripture to yourself; accept its literal instruction and change nothing - are you starting a church, or following one? Yes or No Unanswered question - If you take your new church, and add new things to it, and remove "old" things, are you still in that church, or have you just created a man-made church? Yes or No Unanswered question - The author of Hebrews exhorted his people to "remember them which have the rule over you." What did he mean? Unanswered question - You have two preachers: One says his church is from the beginning, and he sacrifices babies. The second preaches Christ, and he started yesterday. Who do you listen to? Unanswered question - Is the 2x2 itinerant ministry from God or man? Yes or No Unanswered question - Do you believe any church has the authority to change what is written in the bible? Yes or No Unanswered question - What does "traditions of men" mean in today's religious context? Unanswered question - Who started your own church, God or a man? Unanswered question - Imagine a rich mega-star televangelist with their own private jet. a - Should we reject the lowly way and become like them? b - Or should they become more like us? Unanswered question - Do you want to be different to those of the New Testament church who wrote and experienced all these things? Yes or No
We are the New Testament church. We do experience these things. It is from God's hand, not our own doing. Your question / premise is flawed. Just to clarify WE = People redeemed and made new by the Grace and Power of God through the unique Jesus Christ, being preserved by His power and led/helped by the Holy Spirit in this life. We = People who have a repaired relationship with God due to the above. It is by grace that we HAVE BEEN saved- not by works of our own. Karl
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timber
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Post by timber on Oct 12, 2007 8:00:43 GMT -5
Bert wrote: Hey GIT. Be careful of answering Yes or No questions - they are loaded
Let your yes be yes and your no be no.
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Post by funny on Oct 12, 2007 8:08:17 GMT -5
quote - "ok, bert. I'll bite. You answer the first question, and I'll answer one of yours." quote - "#1. True/False William Irvine started the church you attend."
False. No-one who obeys scripture can claim to have started it.The question said nothing about scripture being started by a man. Just answer the question as it was asked. Then I'll answer one of yours.
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bert answered this one
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Post by bert answered this one on Oct 12, 2007 8:34:52 GMT -5
quote - "ok, bert. I'll bite. You answer the first question, and I'll answer one of yours." quote - "#1. True/False William Irvine started the church you attend."
False. No-one who obeys scripture can claim to have started it.The question said nothing about scripture being started by a man. Just answer the question as it was asked. Then I'll answer one of yours. I believe Bert answered the question, and gave an explanation for his answer
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Post by actually on Oct 12, 2007 9:43:23 GMT -5
Bert gave a response, that is true. No argument there.
Let's say I asked you "What time is it?" and you responded by saying "Anchovies and Pepperoni." Did you answer the question?
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Post by diet coke on Oct 12, 2007 11:18:27 GMT -5
many levels...many levels...many levels...do you believe me yet??
Bert's answer was perfect on one level. You ain't gonna trap him into answering on the level you want, because he refuses to mortalize his beliefs.
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Post by what trap on Oct 12, 2007 11:43:42 GMT -5
Unreal. It's a simple frickin' question. Too bad you 2x2s are unable to answer this question, as stated, and give an answer to JUST THE QUESTION without hemming, hawing, fudging facts, and twisting like Chubby Checker.
I'm sorry. I thought I was dealing with reasoning people. My mistake.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 12, 2007 11:52:06 GMT -5
There is no hemming and hawing. This is no simple question. Define "start". Define "church". Then answer the question for us as requested: who started your church, and how?
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Post by diet coke on Oct 12, 2007 12:04:18 GMT -5
part of the confusion and frustration is that people want to pidgeonhole the f&w way like other churches around them. f&w's do not share a traditional understanding of "starting" a "church". Bert's answer is perfect and hits the nail on the head. WI didn't start anything; he observed, presumably through revelation, the biblical way of worship that "correct" Christians had been following off-and-on through the last 2000 years, and began to show it to others, without starting any new churches with new ideas.
Do I summarize that properly? Let the f&w's alone with their beliefs, it's a totally legitimate religious concept, and not that mysterious if you try to understand where we are coming from. You don't have to BELIEVE it, just accept that it's different and there are no stock answers to your question.
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Post by ahem on Oct 12, 2007 12:49:02 GMT -5
diet coke, your answer is nothing but rhetorical hemming and hawing. Why are you so afraid to admit that a man started your church? Will it affect your faith?
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Post by guesst on Oct 12, 2007 13:37:37 GMT -5
the answer diet coke gives in the above post about wm. irvine's revelation and thus reinstituting what God has required of mankind all along does not negate the fact that most were never told this and were told it has been from the shores of Galilee. We were not told of any breaks inbetween, of any dark times when God had no one to fellowship with. Until someone says, oops we goofed, this will always be a sore spot, mildly put, with some. After all is said and done, this being God's true way and all, we should be grateful for wi's enlightment.
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Post by Whoa on Oct 12, 2007 14:11:04 GMT -5
From Coke
From Guesst
In reality Nat, bert collective, and GIS go against scripture
Mt:16:18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
No person has/nor can correct what God has set the foundations firm in.
To claim that this man Irvine are correcting errors in the Church of Christ is denying that JESUS said that "the gates of hell shall not prevailed against it". By claiming some reformation or jump start they are putting to naught the power of God and saying "yes, the gates of hell did prevail". They do not believe that God has kept his Church firm and thus they create customs to describe what they want instead of what God built through Jesus.
William Irvine was a false prophet pure and simple. The 2x2 fellowship group (F&W.s) come from that false prophet.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 12, 2007 14:13:37 GMT -5
It is a sore spot with some because of improper past teaching, and that's too bad. Be glad the church stance changed. And I personally have no problem at all admitting that Irvine "started my church" because I'm not a very hard-line f&w. It won't effect my faith cuz I have little to start with.
Yet I do understand the mindset of many (particularly exclusive) f&w's. Open your mind to a different way of thinking: that there was no "starting," just "finding". And if you choose not to believe that, hey, that's cool, I don't either. But it is a legitimate theological stance, and there's no point in trying to tell mainline f&w's that their way of worship began as a new thing for the first time in 1897, because that contradicts our teaching. And like any other religious belief it can't be proven or disproven, just believed or not believed.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 12, 2007 14:17:42 GMT -5
In reality Nat, bert collective, and GIS go against scripture Mt:16:18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.No person has/nor can correct what God has set the foundations firm in. To claim that this man Irvine are correcting errors in the Church of Christ is denying that JESUS said that "the gates of hell shall not prevailed against it". By claiming some reformation or jump start they are putting to naught the power of God and saying "yes, the gates of hell did prevail". They do not believe that God has kept his Church firm and thus they create customs to describe what they want instead of what God built through Jesus. William Irvine was a false prophet pure and simple. The 2x2 fellowship group (F&W.s) come from that false prophet. All of this makes sense until the last paragraph. It seems totally irrelevent to the rest of the argument; in fact, it rather contradicts the rest of the argument. The entire point of the f&w beliefs is that Irving changed absolutely nothing, corrected absolutely nothing, started absolutely nothing new.
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Post by Wrong on Oct 12, 2007 14:33:18 GMT -5
In reality Nat, bert collective, and GIS go against scripture Mt:16:18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.No person has/nor can correct what God has set the foundations firm in. To claim that this man Irvine are correcting errors in the Church of Christ is denying that JESUS said that "the gates of hell shall not prevailed against it". By claiming some reformation or jump start they are putting to naught the power of God and saying "yes, the gates of hell did prevail". They do not believe that God has kept his Church firm and thus they create customs to describe what they want instead of what God built through Jesus. William Irvine was a false prophet pure and simple. The 2x2 fellowship group (F&W.s) come from that false prophet. All of this makes sense until the last paragraph. It seems totally irrelevent to the rest of the argument; in fact, it rather contradicts the rest of the argument. The entire point of the f&w beliefs is that Irving changed absolutely nothing, corrected absolutely nothing, started absolutely nothing new. Don't forget the alpha and omega revelations that Irvine sold when getting the followers togather. And then there is the issue of separating the workers from the saints. He (Irvine) did that to create a large body of believer who would support the workers. So then the last statement is very relevent.
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