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Post by challenger on Oct 7, 2007 22:48:41 GMT -5
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 7, 2007 23:49:40 GMT -5
There are things wrong with every religion, challenger. You have to take the bad with the good. (and I don't mean take as in "put up with" I mean it as in ....edify yourself with the good and beware of, and put away, the bad.)
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Post by freedom on Oct 8, 2007 0:12:10 GMT -5
Perhaps you are looking at a carnal religion. Webster's definition of "carnal" is this:
1. In or of the flesh; bodily; material or worldly, not spiritual 2. having to do with or preoccupied with bodily or sexual pleasures; sensual or sexual
It also says that carnal implies relation to the body or flesh as the seat of basic physical appetites....and ussually stresses the absence of moral or intellectual influence.
I really think this hits the nail on the head. They (the workers)have made a religion of outward appearances (material, not spiritual) in what is required of others, yet within themselves, due to forbidden fruit syndrome, a great many have become "pre-occupied with bodily or sexual pleasures." If we were to include power hunger in "bodily pleasures", this would, sad to say, possibly include all the workers.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 8, 2007 0:23:28 GMT -5
well, we have a difference of opinion in that, freedom. but that's ok. makes the world go round. M. (and I know (or know of) a great many very dedicated pious workers...who are truly serving God..so I can't see them being the way you described..but eh..that's just me.)
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Post by freedom on Oct 8, 2007 1:12:43 GMT -5
That's OK, Michelle, I don't completely disagree with you, however, just know that things are not always as they appear on the outside. This religion does put the greatest emphasis on outward appearances, hence, all the workers know how to appear dedicated and pious. We do not know what is hiding behind the polished exterior. They have so little control of their own lives, some come to love controling others lives--Just see what happens when people don't do as they are told...Excommunicated!
No, I will not say that all workers are like this, however, my suspicion is, that once they've been in the work a while, they either find a sexual outlet, or become very controlling. This suspicion comes from personal observation. When one is in the work, you see quite a different side to the workers than most friends see. As much as I still do respect and care for some of the workers, I think that if they were totally honest, they would have to admit to one of these two tendencies.
When a new person professes, it is the outward changes that they seem to be most interested in, i.e. getting rid of the TV, women to start wearing dresses, and putting up their hair, giving money to the workers. When they see these outward indications, they think that this person has "got it". Is this not "carnal"?
Freedom
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 8, 2007 1:15:51 GMT -5
I do understand what you're getting at as well, freedom, but I have seen many a joyful, dedicated, wonderful spirit. Haven't you ever met someone (worker or not) and they made you happy just to know them or to be around them because they were just such a good person...inside? I have...and they have lifted me up many a time. I have known workers like this....the men as well, but I am thinking right now of a few certain sister workers I have known in my lifetime....that I wish I, myself, could be more like in some ways.
Hard to describe what,exactly, I mean here. M.
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Post by freedom on Oct 8, 2007 1:19:11 GMT -5
Just curious, how long had these sister workers been in the work, and are they still in the work?
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matia
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Post by matia on Oct 8, 2007 3:27:18 GMT -5
I agree with challenger What is wrong , yes accept all these sexual crepes who think they are so good, all outward show But wolves dressed in sheeps clothing . Funny thing that if you aprouch them with a serious problem you are made to feel the guilty one Been there , done that, by the way I came off a convention grounds, Ive seen it all. But there were some older I admired , thats all, makes you think, this religion is man made , and we all know that , return to Jesus, the Man between God and us.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 8, 2007 3:58:32 GMT -5
I honestly don't know the answers to that, free. A couple I am thinking of were younger..and I know one HAS left the work to get married (as I see where you are headed with this) but a few of the others were older..and just had a great spirit. Oh, I can think of many...but Wanda Skilbred comes to mind as a kind, gentle woman. M.
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Post by mortified on Oct 8, 2007 7:38:16 GMT -5
Interesting, I spoke with a worker this week about the sexual abuse problem and the cover ups. He admitted that there had been a case a few years back when he was in another field that he was personally aware. However, he assured me that they were not putting up with this behavior. This worker was "put right out of the work." This worker was so proud that he could state these facts and really convinced that the right thing had been done. So, my next question was o.k.--so what was done to assure this man never molested another child. The worker stared at me blankly and all of a sudden had to get somewhere. He did not have any answer. I asked if children of non-professing parents matter any or are we only worried about the truth children. When we realize we know of a case like this then it is imparitive the perpetrator be reported in order to protect ANY child not just the ones in professing families.
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Post by FREE2BME on Oct 8, 2007 8:35:15 GMT -5
I am sitting here trying to decide what I should say..so I have decided the best way for me is to speak from my heart.. I am soooo disgusted/saddened/angry at what I have read on this board about the workers-past, present (and unfortunately future) who have molested innocent children..It sickens me to think that that there should be a coverup to begin with or a shifting around or even "kicking" the worker out-it needs to be brought out into the open and dealt with immediately ....Shame on anyone (including a head worker) for not reporting it to the proper authorities....for anyone who is more concerned with the reputation of the fellowship than an innocent child....(whether a child of a non-professing or professing family..no diference.. a child is a child!)...The only way I would have known about all of this is by reading on this board what is happening..so thanks to all of you who have brought this out into the open-and for letting me vent Good day everyone!
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 8, 2007 8:45:47 GMT -5
Unfortunately I think it's worrying more about church survival, appearances and reputation, than the morality they preach.
If a church truely has the love of God in their hearts, they will reach out to all mankind, not just those within their fellowship.
This is evident in the above post by mortified regarding removing the worker in question but having no regard for the children. And there have been many more examples just like that one. It was mentioned he was put out of the work, but that would mean he was probably still going to meetings and therefore still around children. Even if he was told to stop going to meetings, no one put a thought to the children he would be around then either.
Its more about saving face than showing God's love and care for all the sheep and lambs, both inside the "fold" and out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2007 9:07:10 GMT -5
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that "protecting the system" is evidently far more important than extending the hand of Christ in thse matters, I am also wondering how many of those in charge have their own "related" skeletons in the cupboard that they are fearful of being exposed ?
This is pure speculation on my part, but how many of those indulging in sweeping the abhorent abuses by their peers under the carpet, have something similar in their own past to hide that they are keen to play things down and keep these issues in the dark.
There could be a whole can of worms waiting to come out. Let's pray there is not.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 8, 2007 11:21:22 GMT -5
Unfortunately I think it's worrying more about church survival, appearances and reputation, than the morality they preach.
Of course. Does this surprise anyone, really? I agree, even while I hesitate to say so, because it will sound negative. I don't mean to sound negative, only realistic. Survival trumps everything thing else. Almost always. We "innies" tend to put so much faith in the "way" or the workers that we expect perfection of its people, while the "outies" note a few offcolor problems and cry for institutional martyrism. Both are stupid. Both make as much sense as expecting a starving man to lie down in the street and die instead of venturing into your garden. (take that analogy however you want )
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Post by ll on Oct 8, 2007 11:35:49 GMT -5
I am sitting here trying to decide what I should say..so I have decided the best way for me is to speak from my heart.. I am soooo disgusted/saddened/angry at what I have read on this board about the workers-past, present (and unfortunately future) who have molested innocent children..It sickens me to think that that there should be a coverup to begin with or a shifting around or even "kicking" the worker out-it needs to be brought out into the open and dealt with immediately ....Shame on anyone (including a head worker) for not reporting it to the proper authorities....for anyone who is more concerned with the reputation of the fellowship than an innocent child....(whether a child of a non-professing or professing family..no diference.. a child is a child!)...The only way I would have known about all of this is by reading on this board what is happening..so thanks to all of you who have brought this out into the open-and for letting me vent Good day everyone! Same here if it wern't for the Internet I wouldn't have heard I'm sure..this is why I defend the InternetThe Internet is my inside scoop
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Oct 8, 2007 13:09:55 GMT -5
To freedom and wtbwg
I have enjoyed your discussion. Our pastor has been expositorily preaching on Gal and we are to the 5th chapter. Where it lists the works of the flesh. He said God gave us these desires. Not only did He give them to us, they were given as strong desires. It is when people try and go against nature, deny these desires, there are problems. And of course, he said when the desire is allowed to go uncontrolled it becomes lust. And there are ways in which people use their desires that are sinful. Adultry, etc. The point is, it is unnatural to expect men and women to deny these natural desires, they were God given. It even warns about it in the bible> I don't remember the verses but I remember it said "forbidding to marry" in the KJV
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Post by freedom on Oct 8, 2007 13:17:00 GMT -5
Exactly! When trying so hard to deny themselves, they hence become preoccupied with it. As one example, as a young sister worker, I had no intention of "messing around" but golly, dare talk to a young brother worker by himself, and I had all these older sisters coming down on me. It was obvious that they had one thing on their minds.
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Post by rational on Oct 8, 2007 13:43:28 GMT -5
Exactly! When trying so hard to deny themselves, they hence become preoccupied with it. As one example, as a young sister worker, I had no intention of "messing around" but golly, dare talk to a young brother worker by himself, and I had all these older sisters coming down on me. It was obvious that they had one thing on their minds. This should be part of the education that workers get. Certainly you intended to do nothing. But you placed yourself in a place where people could have reached the wrong conclusion. This is as true with adults as it is with adults and children. If the workers never want to be accused of molesting children all they have to do is to never be alone with a minor. Appearance does matter when you are in the glare of the public spotlight. A married man visiting a married woman 3 or 4 times a week, alone, and spending an hour playing cards will be the start of a lot talk. Whether it is true of not it casts the dark cloud over the couple. And although the oft quoted verse from Paul stating to avoid the appearance of evil is just the result of a bad translation it might still be a bit of good advice!
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Post by selah on Oct 8, 2007 14:28:39 GMT -5
I think the defense mechanism of the fellowship is similar in strength to the very 'life-preservation' instinct people have.
If we believe a "perfect way" is required, and we believe the f&w fellowship IS that "perfect way," if follows that we MUST deny anything that questions its perfection.
If we see anything that "appears" to be wrong, we conclude there MUST be another explanation; it can't be the fellowship, because it's perfect. Our very eternal life depends on that being true. At least that's what we believe as long as we're under that mindset.
There is freedom from that deception (believing that the f&w fellowship is the perfect way). God is not promoting a perfect church, but His perfect Son. Dependence on Jesus Christ alone, because only HE is the perfect way, brings freedom.
Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Other ways (fellowships, churches, doctrines, traditions) can be and are useful in our efforts to evangelize and to express our faith with others toward God....but they can NOT replace the true, living and perfect way, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
If our faith is placed in Him, we are set free of the bondage and pressures of maintaining the appearance of perfection. We are totally dependent on HIM, rather than ourselves.. or our fellowship.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2007 16:27:00 GMT -5
Good assessment Linda. For many friends and workers, the church system is the way and the truth. So, it only makes sense that an all-out effort is made to preserve it because to them, eternal life hangs in the balance. With the church and ministry focus comes the sacred cows. Right now, the biggest sacred cow is the ministry. Amongst many circles of friends, criticism of the ministry is effectively an attack right on the heart of their faith. It often elicits a harsh and mean response. I wish I could wave a magic wand and have f&ws begin to focus on Christ rather than on a way of man and a group of ministerial people, but alas, I have little influence in that regard. I think the defense mechanism of the fellowship is similar in strength to the very 'life-preservation' instinct people have. If we believe a "perfect way" is required, and we believe the f&w fellowship IS that "perfect way," if follows that we MUST deny anything that questions its perfection. If we see anything that "appears" to be wrong, we conclude there MUST be another explanation; it can't be the fellowship, because it's perfect. Our very eternal life depends on that being true. At least that's what we believe as long as we're under that mindset. There is freedom from that deception (believing that the f&w fellowship is the perfect way). God is not promoting a perfect church, but His perfect Son. Dependence on Jesus Christ alone, because only HE is the perfect way, brings freedom. Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.Other ways (fellowships, churches, doctrines, traditions) can be and are useful in our efforts to evangelize and to express our faith with others toward God....but they can NOT replace the true, living and perfect way, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. If our faith is placed in Him, we are set free of the bondage and pressures of maintaining the appearance of perfection. We are totally dependent on HIM, rather than ourselves.. or our fellowship. Blessings, Linda
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Post by déjà vu on Oct 8, 2007 21:23:42 GMT -5
RATIONAL wrote;Appearance does matter when you are in the glare of the public spotlight. A married man visiting a married woman 3 or 4 times a week, alone, and spending an hour playing cards will be the start of a lot talk. Whether it is true of not it casts the dark cloud over the couple.
And although the oft quoted verse from Paul stating to avoid the appearance of evil is just the result of a bad translation it might still be a bit of good advice!'
I believe it was Billy Graham 's policy never to be in the same room .alone with any woman ( except Ruth) hence he never had any scandals in his life
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2007 21:50:02 GMT -5
Good policy for Billy Graham and any other person whether in a leadership position or not. However, I suspect that the former sister worker on this thread wasn't talking about private meetings with brother workers, but rather public conversations. That other sister workers would get upset over that is an indication of their own immaturity, and perhaps a reflection of their own lack of self-control? Of course, the male overseer gets a pass and is allowed to talk to the sister workers which seems like a double standard is being practiced by the catty sister workers. A couple of years ago I ran into a sister worker in a public cafeteria. I practically invited myself to join her, had a brief lunch with her but noticed she was a little uncomfortable even though I knew her relatively well having had her stay in our home numerous times. Upon reflecting afterward, I think she was afraid of being seen in public with a man, any man. Perhaps she did have something to fear, the childish gossipers in our church creating a scandal over nothing. RATIONAL wrote;Appearance does matter when you are in the glare of the public spotlight. A married man visiting a married woman 3 or 4 times a week, alone, and spending an hour playing cards will be the start of a lot talk. Whether it is true of not it casts the dark cloud over the couple. And although the oft quoted verse from Paul stating to avoid the appearance of evil is just the result of a bad translation it might still be a bit of good advice!' I believe it was Billy Graham 's policy never to be in the same room .alone with any woman ( except Ruth) hence he never had any scandals in his life
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2007 1:15:24 GMT -5
Since my 45 years in 2x2ism I have become allergic to cult driven"obsession with appearance" -- doing or not doing things because of what "people might think"-- For one thing it is a completely hopeless task to please everyone. And if the only purpose is to avoid scandal it becomes simply a extremely high moral price to pay to promote ones own ego (or to promote the self-righteous ego of the organization) Jesus disregard for the way that others perceived him caused a lot of criticism, and even eventually got him nailed to the cross. However he was willing for this price of misunderstanding, as it allowed him to retain his moral purity before his father. This is what should be the goal of us all who claim to follow his teaching and spirit. Edgar Back to the threads original subject --- What is wrong with an organization that would have caused a major gossip scandal at Jesus 'one on one' discussion with the woman at the well, yet will meticulously conceal the preventative warning signs of a child molester to preserve their own image?
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Mrs Abraham Lincoln
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Post by Mrs Abraham Lincoln on Oct 9, 2007 10:45:33 GMT -5
Sister Linda wrote :If our faith is placed in Him, we are set free of the bondage and pressures of maintaining the appearance of perfection. We are totally dependent on HIM, rather than ourselves.. or our fellowship. :
Amen, Sister Linda. The APPEARANCE OF PERFECTION is, afterall, only an appearance. Jesus is the ESSENTIAL perfection; A perfect love. The perfect Word. A perfect life. A perfect death. The perfect fulfillment of the Law. Perfection personified IN JESUS. I cannot find Scripture where Jesus preached in favor of perfect appearance. More to the contrary. He WARNED against a perfect appearance in conjunction with a dead, cold inward heart/soul. However, Jesus did not preach that it was WRONG to look good.
So, then, I ask: "Where is the balance?" Ahhh.......................................the balance is in being the you that God has so lovingly made; in doing the best that YOU can do and through faith/courage/resolve, & letting God work a beautiful, wondrous work --: not obsessing overly much on appearances for appearance sake; allowing the Spirit to do the work that the Spirit is so very capable of.
Yet, tis such a HUMAN tenacity to strive for some type of perfect IMAGE. In addition, it makes people feel better when they look better and so if they feel better they think: "Oh I must really BE better" and so forth. Why else would there be 30+ different kinds of hairsprays to choose from in the hair products isle at the local supermarket? Why else is the fashion and beauty industry a multibillion dollar deal? Why else are everyday people who's lives are not in the public eye getting botox injections and collagen implants and slapping the cost on a credit card or payment plan? Why else would a woman choose to carry around two artificial breast implants everyday which contribute to bad posture and back/neck/shoulder pain? Why...............?
I'll tell you why, dear sister--: Because there is an eternal drive for a perfect appearance that MANKIND has totally BOUGHT INTO. That's why. But part of the other "why" is because when people look better, they feel better and vice versa and that's just the way we are wired. And so, where do we draw the line? When is the last plastic surgery finally enough? Jane Fonda has finally said she will get no more plastic surgery, now that she is 70 years old and has made the decision to just let her age "show". She drew that line after years of being in the public eye and maintaining a 'perfect appearance'.
Your sister in temprence, Mary Todd Lincoln
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Oct 9, 2007 16:42:40 GMT -5
LOL....I always get a giggle from your writings Mary...
Was John the Baptists outward appearance important? Not from what I read. He was half naked. Imagine if he walked in to a mission. Im sure he would not have smelt of Lux soap neither.
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Post by Mary Todd Lincoln on Oct 9, 2007 20:43:41 GMT -5
LOL....I always get a giggle from your writings Mary... Was John the Baptists outward appearance important? Not from what I read. He was half naked. Imagine if he walked in to a mission. Im sure he would not have smelt of Lux soap neither. Goot Got! Which half was naked?!? I hope it was not the improper half. Even in Bible days, people had the decency to cover up properly. My lands. Men have always had more leeway in this area of modesty than women. Even today, men can go outside and mow the lawn with a naked chest. Shall we womenfolK give that a go, just for the sake of experimentation? Indeed, Johnny the Baptist probably did receive disapproving stares, especially from the upright and uptight PHARISEES!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2007 21:34:06 GMT -5
quote - "What is wrong with a fellowship that has accepted pedophiles and sexual predators among their leaders (hushing the victims), while at the same time shunning brethren on the grounds of owning a television, women wearing pants, place of employment etc.... ?" What is wrong with a fellowship that has accepted a traitor and thief among their leaders (hushing the victims) while at the same time shunning brethren on the grounds of loving this present evil world, not conforming to standards of moderation, or still wanting to be employed as a scribe, Sadducee or Pharisee?
Some things never change.
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Post by no argument there on Oct 9, 2007 23:34:27 GMT -5
No argument there. bert is still a self-righteous pri ck
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